The 5% (how it applies to EU)

[Cryte]

I keep seeing threads and posts with a lot of hate about how the dev's at MA cater to the ubers in the game. As I am not uber, nor do I plan on ever attaining uber status (noob4life!), I hadn't really given it too much thought. I assumed it was just random whinings you see in any game forums about content (forgive me if I'm totally wrong lol.)

Oddly enough, today I stumbled across this article on one of the MMO blogs I read (Hardcore Casual).

It is titled "The 5%" and in it the author, Syncaine, discusses how and why the MMO companies cater to the top 5% of their player base. That top 5% is comprised of the hardcore raiders, guild leaders, etc., typically the people doing driving a lot of the content in games. It's an interesting read and I felt like I could see some correlations to EU. If you consider the uber players in EU as the ones that are driving some of the activities and content. The content in this case being land grabs, player run events, and the news-worthy stories you get when someone buys a space station eyecrazy - those are all some of the reasons people have come to this game, or at least stick around once they get here.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I just thought it was an interesting read. Who knows, maybe there is a method to the madness of the guys up top as to why they keep adding content that's high level.. not that I wouldn't mind some low level uber gear that drops from Cornundacauda's *hint hint MA*

As a footnote, what I'd really be curious to see is the status for the player base, particularly the breakout of the various tiers of players. For instance Low (sub 25 profession level), Mid (25-50), and Uber (50+), the amount of active players in each tier, and the amount of deposits accumulated between the groups. That might lay the argument to rest as to who they should be catering to.. also forgive me if I grouped the levels wrong, I really have no idea what mid/uber levels are considered.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Interesting post. However 5% of EU participants, can in no way spend more than the rest of the entire 95%.

 

[Karmic]

Interesting post. However 5% of EU participants, can in no way spend more than the rest of the entire 95%.

If you consider spend as peds cycled then yes, they certainly do.

 

[Greznik]

Completely pulling the rug out from under the top 5-10% would probably topple the entire game though. Much like the real world.

 

[Cryte]

Interesting post. However 5% of EU participants, can in no way spend more than the rest of the entire 95%.

Do we have any sort of data or stats to back that up? I have no idea what level the ubers play at, as far as monthly depo's or cycled PEDS go..

 

[SpikeBlack]

If you consider spend as peds cycled then yes, they certainly do.

to a degree but MA can only pay their bills using cold hard cash. So they're probably taking deposits into account and targeting player investment areas where they can increase the amount of surplus cash beyond tt values e.g. the motherships having a purchase value far in excess of their tt value and even more when the SI is increased. That surplus will never be recovered from MA themselves and it's cash in the bank for them.

The same could be said for tiering, the tt value of an item doesn't increase and as such the money spent by a player can only be recovered from other players if the item is sold.

The only thing I can think of for low - mid level players were the apartments where the deed is almost worthless but when they were originally sold on the auction were over 200ped.

From past interviews with older uber players some deposit huge amounts per month to continue at the level they play at.

 

[Daniel Steps]

...From past interviews with older uber players some deposit huge amounts per month to continue at the level they play at.

And some (most?) uber players claim to not deposit (rather they withdraw, though some after having deposited in the past) ...

To the OP: i also would prefer some transparancy to how many players are active to what extent (hours online, peds cycled) and in what level ... that way we could actually come up with suggestions that are fit to the current situation rather than speculate and loose energy and time in discussions about what the actual situation of players/EU is atm (and i do understand the fear of MindArk for being honest about these numbers ... what do you have to loose? honesty might actually get you some interest from some companies/advertisers/partners, where now everyone who searches MindArk or EntropiaUniverse sees the pr-story which sometimes borders ridiculous and the community speaking a spectrum of opinions, not very trust-instilling)

 

[SpikeBlack]

And some (most?) uber players claim to not deposit (rather they withdraw, though some after having deposited in the past) ...

watch some of the gaming expo vids from past EU exhibition stands and few will admit to depositing but won't say how much other than just a lot.

 

[Karmic]

Do we have any sort of data or stats to back that up? I have no idea what level the ubers play at, as far as monthly depo's or cycled PEDS go..

Only indirectly. MA states they take money from decay. Ignoring one time items like land areas and motherships (I think it's safe to assume that less than 5% of the population has purchased a land area or other big ticket item). Lets flip it around and just look at hunting globals (paid) to players.

Disclaimer: I know the tracker stats are not accurate, this is only to show a rough comparison of the top players vs the other 95%.

I have been doing small mob iron challenges for most of the month or hunting in teams, so, i only have 2 globals in the last 30 days for a total of 150 ped. That puts me around rank 2000, of 3000ish that means there are 1000 people that have total hunting globals for less than 150 ped. Even if we assume they all globalled for 149 ped that's 149,000 ped in globals for 1000 players (we can also assume that plenty of people logged in and did not get a hunting global in the last 30 days but we'll ignore that for now.

Of the roughly 3000 players with globals, the top 5% is 150 players, the top 100 list (sorted by loot) shows the top two hunters had over 200,000 ped in globals. 2 players outgloballed the bottom 1000. number 100 has 11,785 ped in globals, i can't see number 150, but imo it is very likely that the remaining 148 players in the 5% outgloballed the 1852 remaining in the bottom 95%, and that's not including all the people that did not global at all.

problems with this, global amounts do not equal ped spent, so we can't compare this directly. However, as an indicator of activity I think it gives strong evidence that the top 5% spends more than the bottom 95%, crafting is an even more extreme example, the top crafter has 25 times the total global return of the number 100 crafter, and both of those people would be in the top 5%.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Do we have any sort of data or stats to back that up? I have no idea what level the ubers play at, as far as monthly depo's or cycled PEDS go..

My statement comes from an official MA person. Who said the average player in EU deposits anything from 500 to 1000 ped per month. If you calculate how many times they could cycle that potentially upto 10000ped. Per week that's 2500ped used. Saturday/sundays that's 1250ped per day. So anything from 625 to 1250 is used by the average player which is cycled. Whether cycled or deposited, if 5 ubers represented the 5% of EU's top elite using up 3k per day, that is 450.000 ped cycled per month.

Ok now with the remaining 95% represents everyone not an uber or an elite player, so let's say we cycle 1k instead of 3k like an uber for the average player that is 1000x30=30000 x again by the 95 other players = 2.850.000 ped cycled within a period of a month. So ubers do contribute a lot but out of the total sum they only give MA around 13.64% of ped cycled in entropia. For their % in size an population they are basically triple that of any other normal player which is a fair assumption based on peds cycled 1k vs 3k. But these are all estimates and subject to scrutiny. I just hope I got my maths right if anything.

 

[Bones]

Seems to me that all of the new systems created since VU 9.4 are accessible to all players .. vehicles just for one example are priced quite reasonabley.


Bones

 

[M Rufen Power]

Karmic, using globals instead of actual ped spent you would be right. If it were ped spent I would be right. So who's really right here? I honestly don't care. But I believe that no way can the 5% out spend the rest of us. Not if we're all reportedly using up at least the amounts MA have claimed to be correct for avg deposits.

 

[Immortal]

Top 5% in this game in terms of turnover are all crafters.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Interesting post. However 5% of EU participants, can in no way spend more than the rest of the entire 95%.

Not necesarily. Spending is possible.. Current Deposits of real cash maybe not.

I said you, on base to Pareto Principle:

- The Top 20% usually do the 80% of spend.
- The Lower 80% usually only do the 20% of spend..

and... ta ta ta tannn!

- The Top 5% usually do the 50% of spend...


However, currently spending (turnover, recycled peds, etc).. not necesarily means real money.. it can be only virtual money (PEDs: pictures of yellow coins).. and worst only a debt accounting for Mindark with Ubers (Call it a promissory note, which Mindark would pay as real money - and not virtual / great diference - if Ubers are upset and want to go.)...

Remember this: an Uber can have in his PED Card.. 1, 2, 3 millions of PEDs including from 2005 possibly, .. but he usually may have the same amount or more during many years.. (remember 90% TT rule and you must adding the MU value)...

For that In my opinion, currently Ubers are not the main depositors of real money to the game; but how afraid might have Mindark, if Ubers wanted leave the game .. Do not believe it.?

 

[Snuggins]

Karmic, using globals instead of actual ped spent you would be right. If it were ped spent I would be right. So who's really right here? I honestly don't care. But I believe that no way can the 5% out spend the rest of us. Not if we're all reportedly using up at least the amounts MA have claimed to be correct for avg deposits.

I don't know where you came up with ubers using only 3k peds per day and normal people using 1k peds per day... I think the gap is MUCH wider.

Remember that if MA told you an avg monthly deposit amount, it's the avg for people that deposit at all. And there are lots of people that cycle without doing deposits. Essentially, I don't think the avg monthly deposit amount has much at all to do with turnover (which is how MA earns it's money (I know that they get it from deposits, but they tell us that it's still ours until it's been cycled and they take out their cut)).

I think you are off by a lot when you guess that ubers only turnover 3x the avg player. Everyone in the lower 95% includes a LOT of small fries that barely turn over anything and I believe the upper 5% does way more than 3k peds per day.

 

[Infinity01]

Assuming the 90% TT return rule:
In theory, when you deposit it's still your money... if you buy an item ( TT + MU) you still have that money interms of TT value... The MU goes to the other players (say uber players) So, MA still can't claim the money. MA gets its share only if you decay the items...and it's only 10% of it's TT value.

As the low end players can hardly decay enough to keep MA viable..... MA really depends on the high end players who decays a lot (ped recycling). Infact, high end players are the engines of EU that convert deposited money to MA's cash (except LA/estate/MS etc sale) based on the 90% tt return rules....
As, such MA has to cater to players.. who are recycling peds at a higher rate and it's fair for MA to be biased towards those players.

So, one should appreciate the players who (Ubers) recycle a lot, and keep the game going!........

The only objection I've is it seems to be too imbalnces.... and cost to play is too high at midlevel coz of high MU

Disclaimer: Lately I try to extract as much MU as I possibly can

 

[Xavier_Jr]

So, one should appreciate the players who (Ubers) recycle a lot, and keep the game going!........ The only objection I've is it seems to be too imbalnces.... and cost to play is too high at midlevel coz of high MU

Well as Einstein said almost everything is relative.. If Mindark were a company really powerful, from an economically point of view, could encourage the replacement of the Ubers each time to time. ..what really would be healthy for the game. Then eventually the mid-level players also would become Ubers (and move the economy like you said), but as you know, at current days, the gear needed to be an Uber now, is not found in atrox or in mobs that you can kill with an opalo (like 5, 6 or 7 years before, and for that reason some of the most succesfull Ubers maybe have deposited less money than you or me in the game). Such reality, made me believe, in somehow, Ubers had caught Mindark with this situation, as I have postulated in my previous post, Because, in fact, is very probably the mid-level players are those who bring the real money (USD) to the game (I am not talking about internal recycled of PEDs, if not real flow cash of dollars) . The mid-level players have not only a few million peds inside as Ubers have, but they have real plastic cards such VISA or MASTERCARD. As you can foresee a potential inflation economy, probably unknow for most, that only could be put in evidence if the backing of domestic currency (PEDs) - the real dollars -, needs to returns to our current Ubers class of players, if they wanted to leave the game, to let others take their place.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Top 5% in this game in terms of turnover are all crafters.

I couldnt agree more with this.....crafters cycle many more 10k's of peds than any other profession.

Rgds

Ace

 

[Infinity01]

I have postulated in my previous post, Because, in fact, is very probably the mid-level players are those who bring the real money (USD) to the game (I am not talking about internal recycled of PEDs, if not real flow cash of dollars) . The mid-level players have not only a few million peds inside as Ubers have, but they have real plastic cards such VISA or MASTERCARD.

Totally agrree! and this is what i've been trying to get though.....

Most players leave at late low level and early mid level.... the primary cause is the increase in cost to play..... complexity almost certainly not an issue at this level.... a few might become bored... but the cost is the primary reason for becoming inactive or leaving EU...

MA seems to oblivious about it... and insead trying to increasing the cost to pay for these players.... and worse... ecouraging pvp everywhere.... and it's really mindboggling to me..

 

[Xavier_Jr]

MA seems to oblivious about it... and insead trying to increasing the cost to pay for these players.... and worse... ecouraging pvp everywhere.... and it's really mindboggling to me..

Believe me, if scenaries are like we are thinking, to correct such situation will be a very tough task for every new CEO that Mindark could hire in future. It is nothing easy to give a solution for everybody. And maybe the best (and unique) solution that they can try is to find a real way to increase the customer base.

 

[Cryte]

Totally agrree! and this is what i've been trying to get though.....

Most players leave at late low level and early mid level.... the primary cause is the increase in cost to play..... complexity almost certainly not an issue at this level.... a few might become bored... but the cost is the primary reason for becoming inactive or leaving EU...

MA seems to oblivious about it... and insead trying to increasing the cost to pay for these players.... and worse... ecouraging pvp everywhere.... and it's really mindboggling to me..

This seems to be one of the big problems. I find myself stuck at a cap of $50 a month for depo'ing (I can't justify spending more at this time, whether or not I can afford it.) With that amount, I've been able to comfortably hunt/mine at the same level without being too broke by the end of the month. The issue is that I read some of the hunting logs for higher players and they use my depo amount as ammo fodder for one hunt. There is no way I could justify increasing my monthly input to this game to that high of a level.

I have two options, both have me raising capital. The easiest way is to just raise my deposit, jump to $100 a month. I can afford more decay and add in amps/plating to my outfit. The increase in ammo and decay is covered, and I can hopefully find new mobs that global and payout more to compensate for my increased overhead.

The harder way is to play smart and eco enough that I can eke out my own profit, and then bankroll myself for a higher level of play. I suspect this is the route most profitable player go, but at the same time for a majority of newcomers it's going to be the route that is "work" and boring. People will either get bored hunting at the same level (who can get bored of hunting Corns though? They are so damn cute..) or they will hunt above their level and go broke.

That isn't a bash on the game, EU is what it is and most of us accept it and love it. I think where the system fails is in mentoring these new players and changing their mind about how a game and/or MMO works. There are tutorials for hunting, mining, crafting.. yet no tutorials as to how this economy works. You've read the same cycle in many noob whining posts. "I depo and went broke, wtf?" or "I sweat, sweat, sweat, blow my 10 peds hunting, went broke - wtf?"

In any other MMO, if you gain skill or levels you immediately buy new gear and head to the next zone of higher monsters. Doing something similar in EU requires a lot of research and work, and even with that you have no guarantee of success. We should be teaching these new players bankroll management, variance, MU, etc. Yeah some of them get it from posts on here (if they are resourceful) and other players might get it from a decent mentor in game, but I'd love to see some more newbie tutorials in-game that might show these differences and give some lessons learned/warnings of ways to avoid the cycle of stupidity that so many can fall into.

 

[Quint]

There are tutorials for hunting, mining, crafting.. yet no tutorials as to how this economy works. You've read the same cycle in many noob whining posts. "I depo and went broke, wtf?" or "I sweat, sweat, sweat, blow my 10 peds hunting, went broke - wtf?"

In any other MMO, if you gain skill or levels you immediately buy new gear and head to the next zone of higher monsters. Doing something similar in EU requires a lot of research and work, and even with that you have no guarantee of success. We should be teaching these new players bankroll management, variance, MU, etc. Yeah some of them get it from posts on here (if they are resourceful) and other players might get it from a decent mentor in game, but I'd love to see some more newbie tutorials in-game that might show these differences and give some lessons learned/warnings of ways to avoid the cycle of stupidity that so many can fall into.

Here is the requested tutorial : Be patient and chase markup.

 

[Cryte]

Here is the requested tutorial : Be patient and chase markup.

I understand that, I've learned over the months what eco means and how MU works and that crafting is just a big void that you dump PED into (only slightly kidding on that last point! ). But my point is I'm a certain type of person, who understands what this game is and accepts it. I'm also 34, and have a history with both gaming and gambling, which leads to a drastically different mindset compared to someone who might be 19 and coming to EU from other MMO's after hearing stories of grandeur and profit.

It's akin to telling a young teen that he should "save now and prepare for the future!" It's a rhetoric that gets spit out often. A young kid might hear it, but he won't truly understand what it means until he's eating Ramen on his sofa he found on the side of the road, wondering why he can't get a date and lamenting about his job at McDonalds. At that point he may see it all clearly in hindsight, how he could have been financially smarter and prepared for that day. The question we have is how can we truly teach him at a younger age what it means?

Maybe there is no solution, maybe EU is the ultimate gaming "school of hard knocks" where only the strong survive. Realistically we can't all make a profit right? Someone has to be the loser feeding the rest of the players, don't they?

Wow, I think I just managed to derail my own thread. Whoops.

 

[Derid]

I would be a hardcore player if I had more time. But work have killed it off some, but hoping to get back into it now again.

THO

I will never be an über. Because I don't deposit and never will, I like playing how I do now. Scavenger at the bottom of the barrel looking for remains and things nobody else wants. Why many ask themselves, well, I am having fun. I am playing vs everything about, I have all the odds stacked against me. Ever time a green text row says I gotten a tad of a skill increase, I win! I win a lot everyday I play! No, my PEDs are not stacked in piles, no my inventory does not have uber stuff, heck, don't even have mid level stuff. But I am having a blast! My highest skill is of course Sweating, but I even cheer when I get a new rank in this "useless" skill.

So, in Entropia there are ubers and hardcore players, they don't have to be the same person tho. You can be hardcore and be a low level grinder, or you can be a softcore player that has stats as an uber, due to luck or deposits.

Just my 2 newbie cents.

DERID

 

[Quint]

I understand that, I've learned over the months what eco means and how MU works and that crafting is just a big void that you dump PED into (only slightly kidding on that last point! ). But my point is I'm a certain type of person, who understands what this game is and accepts it. I'm also 34, and have a history with both gaming and gambling, which leads to a drastically different mindset compared to someone who might be 19 and coming to EU from other MMO's after hearing stories of grandeur and profit.

It's akin to telling a young teen that he should "save now and prepare for the future!" It's a rhetoric that gets spit out often. A young kid might hear it, but he won't truly understand what it means until he's eating Ramen on his sofa he found on the side of the road, wondering why he can't get a date and lamenting about his job at McDonalds. At that point he may see it all clearly in hindsight, how he could have been financially smarter and prepared for that day. The question we have is how can we truly teach him at a younger age what it means?

Maybe there is no solution, maybe EU is the ultimate gaming "school of hard knocks" where only the strong survive. Realistically we can't all make a profit right? Someone has to be the loser feeding the rest of the players, don't they?

Wow, I think I just managed to derail my own thread. Whoops.

Wise words, respect. How to prepare youngsters for the future is not an easy question obviously. But I think we, as parents or as mature people in general, should do whatever we can to prepare them. This starts at a fairly young age, you can start forcing them to make decisions, especially let them make tradeoffs between immediate pleasure or a future, but larger, pleasure. That teaches them to save up in order to get a greater benefit in the long run.
Giving them their own weekly or monthly budget will teach them the value of money, in particular the limitations of not having enough money to buy whatever you want.

My parents did a pretty good job in teaching me those lessons I think, and I hope I can do the same for my children. But I personally also got 1 other very valuable lesson on the same subject from a friend, and I think I should share this mainly with the younger people reading this (and it helps to prevent sounding like an old man I hope ) :

When I was about 19y old, a 25y old friend who then had work, a wife, was building his own house, etc... told me : "Don't save anything, just spend all you have and have as much fun as you can. You could maybe save 15-20 Euro per week, but what does that bring you in the future ? Saving that would give you about 1000 Euro saved per year, so if you do that for 5 years, you saved 5000 euro. And then you start building your house and find out that 5000 Euro is nothing, it's gone in a second. So the benefit you then have from your 5000 euro is not really much.
If you instead spend the 15-20 euro per week when you are 19-20y old, it means an extra night out per week ! The fun you have in 250 nights out (5 years, 1 per week) is thousands time more valuable than having an extra 5000 euro when you start building a house."

I am now 34years old and I can confirm he was 100% right. The only thing you should keep in mind, is to make sure you do everything possible to get a good income when you are mature, so those extra nights out should not lead to failing for your exams or killing people by driving a car when drunk or so, because those things will have a negative effect on your whole future life.

PS : How did you know I am 34y too ?

 

[Quint]

Why many ask themselves, well, I am having fun. I am playing vs everything about, I have all the odds stacked against me.

This more or less sums up the reason why I play EU as well. To be successfull without any deposit, competing with RL people and most importantly, with real money at stake. Afaik, no other game can offer me this challenge.

 

[Derid]

This more or less sums up the reason why I play EU as well. To be successfull without any deposit, competing with RL people and most importantly, with real money at stake. Afaik, no other game can offer me this challenge.

Right on brother, that is the thrill that keeps a newbie like myself playing.


Derid el newbie de classico

 

[Cryte]

Wise words, respect. How to prepare youngsters for the future is not an easy question obviously. But I think we, as parents or as mature people in general, should do whatever we can to prepare them. This starts at a fairly young age, you can start forcing them to make decisions, especially let them make tradeoffs between immediate pleasure or a future, but larger, pleasure. That teaches them to save up in order to get a greater benefit in the long run.
Giving them their own weekly or monthly budget will teach them the value of money, in particular the limitations of not having enough money to buy whatever you want.

My parents did a pretty good job in teaching me those lessons I think, and I hope I can do the same for my children. But I personally also got 1 other very valuable lesson on the same subject from a friend, and I think I should share this mainly with the younger people reading this (and it helps to prevent sounding like an old man I hope ) :

When I was about 19y old, a 25y old friend who then had work, a wife, was building his own house, etc... told me : "Don't save anything, just spend all you have and have as much fun as you can. You could maybe save 15-20 Euro per week, but what does that bring you in the future ? Saving that would give you about 1000 Euro saved per year, so if you do that for 5 years, you saved 5000 euro. And then you start building your house and find out that 5000 Euro is nothing, it's gone in a second. So the benefit you then have from your 5000 euro is not really much.
If you instead spend the 15-20 euro per week when you are 19-20y old, it means an extra night out per week ! The fun you have in 250 nights out (5 years, 1 per week) is thousands time more valuable than having an extra 5000 euro when you start building a house."

I am now 34years old and I can confirm he was 100% right. The only thing you should keep in mind, is to make sure you do everything possible to get a good income when you are mature, so those extra nights out should not lead to failing for your exams or killing people by driving a car when drunk or so, because those things will have a negative effect on your whole future life.

PS : How did you know I am 34y too ?

It's nice to see we are both on the same page, maybe our kids won't grow up too screwed up if we can instill in them the same values we learned.

I think you misread what I said about being 34. I mean "also, I'm 34" as in addition to the previous statement I made

 

[dogofwar]

Not everybody can win unless there's a continual increase in the numbers of new investors or the amount of an average investment or both. Otherwise, somebody HAS to lose and it's determined by survival of the fittest. It could mean that you have more discipline or that you're smarter or that you're luckier or that you have more talent or that you own the tables (so to speak). (With no infinite flow of resources into the game then a system is needed to determine who gets what - like a cage fight. It's a kind of scoring system.)

Financial distribution in RL is going to reflect in EU on an almost equal basis simply because a random sampling of gamers is going to reflect the overall financial distribution of RL. If a class or subpopulation favors EU over other games then the distribution might be different compared to reality. But I suspect it's the same. So the top 1% will probably own roughly up to 40% of total wealth. The top 20% will own roughly 85% of total weatlh. The top 40% will own roughly 95%.

And the gap tends to grow. Or it's growing at present time, at least in america. For example, much of the wealth in the bottom 60% was in housing and the recent bubble killed off a lot of it. Whereas, the wealthy only had about 10% of their wealth in housing. Income gains went way up for the wealthy too.

It's probably human nature and cannot be changed. It's a necessity that the developers pay a disproportionate amount of their attention to the top 20% of their subscribes. This is especially important in EU because they don't cap how much money you invest (except for new accounts). In other games, for example, they often will cap it or they will severely limit what you can buy to make yoru character better. By doing that, they can focus their attention better on everyone. The downside is that financial freedom is reduced greatly.