The efficiency of scopes/lasers, Feb 2010

[XeroX2]

Star showed in a post in the past that attachments like scopes/lasers on weapons will give more or bigger skillgains.
I do not think that has changed.

Cheers
Siam

hmm yeah I remember the post... I wonder if it makes sense to put atatchments on because of that? I mean they make the decay bill higher and I could just get something else to do that which would be more helpful... for example an amp and get the same increase?

 

[Legion]

I reminded support that we actually need an answer to this and also told them that to us their reply last time was dead wrong. So hopefully we will get an answer soon.

 

[Oleg]

hmm yeah I remember the post... I wonder if it makes sense to put atatchments on because of that? I mean they make the decay bill higher and I could just get something else to do that which would be more helpful... for example an amp and get the same increase?

Not when you're already using an amp.

 

[mjukis]

Star showed in a post in the past that attachments like scopes/lasers on weapons will give more or bigger skillgains.
I do not think that has changed.

Cheers
Siam

I did a small test on leviathan a few weeks ago (3x3 a204 runs on imk2 with attachments and the same without) and had no extra skill gain whatsoever.

 

[rhogenbe]

I did a small test on leviathan a few weeks ago (3x3 a204 runs on imk2 with attachments and the same without) and had no extra skill gain whatsoever.

That would mean scopes and lasers have gotten pretty much useless except for tagging.

 

[Legion]

I did a small test on leviathan a few weeks ago (3x3 a204 runs on imk2 with attachments and the same without) and had no extra skill gain whatsoever.

You might got more skillPOINTS though which is kinda hard to measure as we dont really see how much they go up with exactly.

 

[Hijacker27]

You might got more skillPOINTS though which is kinda hard to measure as we dont really see how much they go up with exactly.

It's an easy test when you check the skill value with the skill scanner..

 

[Joker]

lasers and scope have always been useless... but i think part of the loot equation = decay and stuff... so added decay might help loot who knows but for me it was common knowledge lasers didnt improve dmg etc

thnx for the thread

 

[mjukis]

You might got more skillPOINTS though which is kinda hard to measure as we dont really see how much they go up with exactly.

It's very easy to scan your exact skill levels before and after a run with jdegre's skill scanner. My test was done with maxed imk2, each run was 3xa204. I did 3 runs without scopes and laser and 3 runs with jzar scope and 2xSE800 lasers and these are the results. First number is skill gain with attachments and second number is without. For some reason my skill gain with attachments was actually slightly lower for almost every skill. I would guess the average maturity killed was higher in my attachment runs giving me fewer "kill bonuses"

Rifle 3.68 - 4.19
LWT 2.64 - 2.87
Commando 2.55 - 1.98
MMS 2.14 - 2.09
Kill Strike 2.11 - 1.89
Anatomy 1.83 - 2.06
RDA 1.08 - 0.93
WH 0.96 - 0.78
Wounding 0.89 - 1.14
Coolness 0.78 - 1.00
IRD 0.78 - 0.88
Aim 0.51 - 0.46

 

[Legion]

It's an easy test when you check the skill value with the skill scanner..

It's very easy to scan your exact skill levels before and after a run with jdegre's skill scanner. My test was done with maxed imk2, each run was 3xa204. I did 3 runs without scopes and laser and 3 runs with jzar scope and 2xSE800 lasers and these are the results. First number is skill gain with attachments and second number is without. For some reason my skill gain with attachments was actually slightly lower for almost every skill. I would guess the average maturity killed was higher in my attachment runs giving me fewer "kill bonuses"

Rifle 3.68 - 4.19
LWT 2.64 - 2.87
Commando 2.55 - 1.98
MMS 2.14 - 2.09
Kill Strike 2.11 - 1.89
Anatomy 1.83 - 2.06
RDA 1.08 - 0.93
WH 0.96 - 0.78
Wounding 0.89 - 1.14
Coolness 0.78 - 1.00
IRD 0.78 - 0.88
Aim 0.51 - 0.46

actually no you cant measure it, as it doesnt always increase a full point. And we also dont know the curve exactly as to when skill x needs points y to gain a full point to go up and so on.

 

[aridash]

actually no you cant measure it, as it doesnt always increase a full point. And we also dont know the curve exactly as to when skill x needs points y to gain a full point to go up and so on.

im pretty sure the Jdedge skill scanner counts "notches" along the skill bar, hence the decimal points in the calculations. for back to back tests the curve is irrelevent, certainly at skill levels of someone like Stoikow (i'd imagine the curve is pretty flat). and people have calculated it probably.

 

[jdegre]

im pretty sure the Jdedge skill scanner counts "notches" along the skill bar, hence the decimal points in the calculations. for back to back tests the curve is irrelevent, certainly at skill levels of someone like Stoikow (i'd imagine the curve is pretty flat). and people have calculated it probably.

yes, that's correct. the decimal points are calculated from a scan of the yellow progress bar shown below the actual skill points.

 

[Profit]

Hehe.. I thought this was the case after playing only 1 month. IIRC, I made a post about it asking if I was confused. Needless to say, people said I was (confused).
Same post I asked a few other questions and tried to raise the question "is it fair that stats are kept secret, regarding mining amps, scopes and lasers?".
Personally, I never have thought it was fair, in fact, it's rather deceptive imo.

I'll try dig it up but I think I had a different login at that stage of my EF life (didn't really use EF back then).
[edit]
no I won't dig it up as it lends nothing to the convo except "haha told you so!"
Glad I never used attachments (cept scope on marber) now!

[edit2]
Legion this a good lesson in research>speculation for you, buddy!

 

[mjukis]

actually no you cant measure it, as it doesnt always increase a full point. And we also dont know the curve exactly as to when skill x needs points y to gain a full point to go up and so on.

Just try the tool yourself or at least read up on it, it would save the rest of us a lot of posts
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/skills/95277-skill-scanner.html

It scans on a per pixel basis. The skills that go up less than a pixel on 1k peds worth of ammo spent is not really worth measuring for the purpose of comparing skill gain with and without scopes/laser.
And at my skill level it's better to measure skill points instead of skill volume. Last I checked the function to determine skill volume per point was a bit off at very high levels, and probably will be until there's a lot more chipping data for the brainiacs to crunch. If they already have though I'm sure that jdegre will correct me and I will measure future tests in skill volume instead, which is just as easy as points with jdegre's skill scanner.
Did I mention how great of a tool jdegre's skill scanner is btw?

 

[Legion]

Just try the tool yourself or at least read up on it, it would save the rest of us a lot of posts
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/skills/95277-skill-scanner.html

It scans on a per pixel basis. The skills that go up less than a pixel on 1k peds worth of ammo spent is not really worth measuring for the purpose of comparing skill gain with and without scopes/laser.
And at my skill level it's better to measure skill points instead of skill volume. Last I checked the function to determine skill volume per point was a bit off at very high levels, and probably will be until there's a lot more chipping data for the brainiacs to crunch. If they already have though I'm sure that jdegre will correct me and I will measure future tests in skill volume instead, which is just as easy as points with jdegre's skill scanner.
Did I mention how great of a tool jdegre's skill scanner is btw?

well i didnt know it was based on pixels

 

[remontoire]

so theres nothing changing in the average damage either. with the evidence that hit and crits arent affected either, scopes and sights are a complete con and i feel MA have deceived us.

I beg to differ. Scopes definately do work at least so much as you can zoom in with them - and at least for me, there is considerable difference to convinience when shooting at long range. Scopes are simply too expensive for me to use these.

 

[Dreicc]

The support answer is funny because i think they are few years late.

All attachment give a range bonus in past (even show in item stat) but that not the case since years now ...

For example : (it's the only screen i have found)

Beast range +2
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1855&c=5

I'm sur i'm not the only one who remember this ...

 

[Legion]

just got an update from support about my case about this.

2010-04-16 14:24 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi again,

No news yet however we do know they are evaluating this case. As soon as we hear something from them we will let you know.

We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

so hopefully a reply soon.

 

[Sativex]

just got an update from support about my case about this.

That sounds much more like a canned response to me, I'll be shocked if they get back to you with something useful.

Edit - Although I do hope I am wrong and they do tell us something of substance.

 

[Doer]

Good to see that statistics are easier to come by now with the new messages. I wonder if the findings here represent a change or just poor statistics from before. Here's one of the Pre-VU10 threads about it.

Has anyone done tests in PvP with attachments since mine in that thread? Making attachments of use in PvP would be rather in character for MA.

 

[Doer]

Here are my results:

Mob: Sumima
Hit professional standing: ~61

Two test conditions:
Test 1: 28% skill mod --> expected hit %: 88
Test 2: 4% skill mod --> expected hit %: 86 (just scope for sighting the sneaky critters)

Test _Hits_ Misses Crits Hit% Crit% Skill volume per shot (10^3)
test1 19398 3278 322 85.5 1.7 1.6 +-0.1
test2 18936 2972 282 86.4 1.5 1.5 +-0.2

It really does appear that the "skill mod" is, at best, a deception.

I think this is one case where a clear answer from MA is called for.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure i trust Entropia Tracker. It flaked out once and counted an entire hunt as misses, and has done a few other strange things that lead me to wonder just how trustworthy it is.

Edit2&3: Added more hunts and a stdev to the skillgain to show how variable the numbers are from one hunt to the next. Each hunt ~4500 shots, n=5 for each test.

 

[aboo]

I think this is one case where a clear answer from MA is called for.

Thx for the results doer, and yes it is. But I wont hold my breath. I'm sure I read a post from stryker in 2005, where he said MA had promised to come clean about the effects of skill mod.

 

[Legion]

Thx for the results doer, and yes it is. But I wont hold my breath. I'm sure I read a post from stryker in 2005, where he said MA had promised to come clean about the effects of skill mod.

support said they are discussing it.. but well seems ma is even slow at talking..

 

[Doer]

Thx for the results doer, and yes it is. But I wont hold my breath. I'm sure I read a post from stryker in 2005, where he said MA had promised to come clean about the effects of skill mod.

Yup, i would like to think the new, improved MA that is trying to attract planet partners &tc. would be willing to do what they weren't before, but that's fairly optimistic. :/

I added one more hunt to the data set. There's really no significant difference between crit hit %, hit %, and skillgain between the 28% and 4% skill mod tests.

*sigh*

 

[Redfrog]

I remember the old testing and trying to work out if an EP-22 + scope + sights was better than paying 180% for another H400

So now, after finally working my way to Jzar + 2x Hunnirs on two guns, I find out that they no longer increase my accuracy and thus, amount of damage on target. So 4x Hunnirs = tt+100 back on the card anyway; the zooming feature on the scopes is useful so I'll keep them for now.

Sigh.

 

[Legion]

just checked when i submitted my supporcase about this now, which MA is talking about. It was a month ago!!! Damn they must be slow over there. What i do suspect though, is that ma has one serious bug in the system, ie what the scopes are supposed to do and what they actually do. And now they are having trouble figuring out how to try and hide it.

 

[stalkeer]

I guess no wonder why scopes are cheap... They don't do a damn thing...

 

[Iphigia]

I guess no wonder why scopes are cheap... They don't do a damn thing...

Well, they do add decay. Just another pitfall in the game...

 

[Xavier_Jr]

because the dynamics of a scam is hidden

2010-03-08 14:16 Entropia Universe Support:
Hi,
Thank you for your inquiry. The laser and scope does not affect the stats of the weapon because it only affects the effective range of the weapon.
Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support



But the Range is one of the stats.
So the question remains open, why does it not display changed Range?


Come on, tell us the truth: these attachments do not increase anything on the weapon, they just increase cost to kill and possibly add new varaible on the loot engine.

 

[Cron]

I guess no wonder why scopes are cheap... They don't do a damn thing...

They make a fine surface for things to rest upon.