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The efficiency of scopes/lasers, Feb 2010

NewNoob said:
If it improves your aim then it will do one thing and thats make you hit more often
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Well, not necessarily.

Improving your aim could cause you to hit more vulnerable parts of the target's body and hence do higher damage. Or it could improve your chance of doing critical hits (much like accuracy enhancers do).

Both of those should be visible from test results too though.
 
Hmm after some thought i might actually think i might maaybe know what scopes and lasers actually do. It does have to do with the aim skill but it doesnt actually up the actuall skillvalue. More info than that i wont give, and if i'm correct i can promise a cryptic answer from MA that most ppl wont fully understand :p
 
Jimmy B said:
Well, not necessarily.

Improving your aim could cause you to hit more vulnerable parts of the target's body and hence do higher damage. Or it could improve your chance of doing critical hits (much like accuracy enhancers do).

Both of those should be visible from test results too though.
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Well yes and as you said should be visible from test result too which they were not.

Without Attachments Avg Dmg per Hit 6.237 and Crit 2.35%

With Attachments Avg Dmg per Hit 6.181 and Crit 2.14%

In fact like some other people have stated using the attachments seems to make everything worse rather then just doing nothing. In my test every attachment runs crit and avg dmg per hit was lower then the lowest from non attachment runs and only one of the attachment runs hit % was higher then the lowest hit % on non attachment runs.
 
Legion said:
It does have to do with the aim skill but it doesnt actually up the actuall skillvalue.
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Hmm well there is only one way I can see that it could affect the aim skill without actually upping it but I don't like it and its really messy/complicated and practially impossible to test so i'll also refrain from mentioning it incase MA can't come up with anything and think "oh that sounds good and they can't test it so lets just say thats what it does and always has"
 
Legion said:
Hmm after some thought i might actually think i might maaybe know what scopes and lasers actually do. It does have to do with the aim skill but it doesnt actually up the actuall skillvalue. More info than that i wont give, and if i'm correct i can promise a cryptic answer from MA that most ppl wont fully understand :p
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So why provide a cryptic answer instead of saying what you think it does? Whats the point? If it increases the contribution of aim skill (which is the only they I can parse your post), it will in fact be testable. It would also explain why people get worse results with attachments as markamship etc would be contributing less. However, if it was that easy, it would already be answered, instead of effective range BS.
 
NewNoob said:
It's more then misleading and just plain fraud.

Read the info on the scopes and sights and it specificalyl says "This Scope/Sight will improve the shooters aim".
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Keep in mind that these have said this (AFAIK) long before anyone had maxed out weapons or SIB weapons existed. One of the assumptions made before was that the bonus wouldn't improve on the ~10% misses of a maxed weapon, but only increase the effective HA on unmaxed weapons.

At this point, after a generation (or two) of people who grew up with SIB as the norm, with the text unchanged, it does seem like it would be reasonable to assume it applies to SIBs, doesn't it?

Legion: sigh.
 
remontoire said:
So why provide a cryptic answer instead of saying what you think it does? Whats the point? If it increases the contribution of aim skill (which is the only they I can parse your post), it will in fact be testable. It would also explain why people get worse results with attachments as markamship etc would be contributing less. However, if it was that easy, it would already be answered, instead of effective range BS.
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Well the cryptic answer is because i dont want everyone to know, i've become a bit bored with the community never beliveing in my theoris (which works for me when i use them) and if everyone would know this info on how i belive it works then everyone would. But to belive in it would also mean you would have to know how the system works, which i belive i do atleast partially. But well 99% of the community dont belive in me so why bother :)

And as for testability, yes it in one way would be possible to test, but at the same time woould most likely not give much answers.

My guess is that the MA answer will be something along the lines of "using scopes and lasers increases the chance for you to get a skillgain in aim" or something similar.

And by writing that i sort of explained my cryptic post of sorts xD
 
Unfortunately for MA/FPC there were some test (carefully made, big sample, diferent weapons) made before vu10.0 e=wchich clearly showed that on unmaxed SIB weapon or weapon without SIB at all ,skill mod given by atachments increased HA on that weapon by % counted as actual prof hit lvl*% of skill modification. Those test showed also that unrepaired fully atachments actually decreased real HA on such weapon.

Only one explanaition i can accept form MA/FPC is that they not implemented that after vu10.0 and they will do that ASAP (maybe even with notification about actual change in HA in weapon stats description - becourse enhancers introduction with "orange description" allow that. Enything else , especialy admiting that Scopes and Lasers do nothing or just increase range (skill mod on aim???) will be scam for me conducted by MA/FPC. Robbery of our money made by providing missleading information/description and violating one of their golden rule (wchich Marco summon many, many times) that MA/FPC will never change stats on items previously aquired by participants until it is absolutely necessary

As nerfing axes 1x0 long time ago was "absolutely necesary" (game was realy unbalanced) nerfing scopes and lasers now will be in my eyes proof that we can't trust MA/FPC in any mater and our assets ale no longer safe here ( as they can do whatever they think without serius reason)


And here is link to tests:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ency-scopes-lasers-statistics-discussion.html


MA/FPC is treating us like blind fools if they don't sort that out. Thats 2nd worrying method of sorting out things after case with Deer Mall and shop owners ,wchich makes me wonder how can i trust them ?
 
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Legion said:
My guess is that the MA answer will be something along the lines of "using scopes and lasers increases the chance for you to get a skillgain in aim" or something similar.

And by writing that i sort of explained my cryptic post of sorts xD
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This would be testable by running a test where you spend x amount of ammo decked out with attachments, chip out and redo without. In fact, you can probably even just do it consecutively, and see if in one case you get more skill volume in specific skills, which you can check using the scanner.

You get more skills with more decay, so if there was a skew to sepcific skilsl that too would be detectable.
 
Well Shoti, to be fair, seeing how much variance is in the hit percentage in the bigger datasets collected in this VU, i'm not sure how conclusive we can say the pre-VU10 results were. Maybe coop can figure out the confidence, but realistically we didn't have very large statistical samples. What data there was seemed to be pretty uniformly and strongly supportive of the hypothesis, though.

Worst case scenario: there were an awful lot of coincidences all conveniently supporting the idea that skill mod is an effective modifier of HA. It was enough to convince me to use attachments on my unmaxed weapons at the time, believing they would improve the HA.

Here's the quote by Marco i was remembering earlier. It suggests that the "Skill Mod" is a skill gain increase rather than effective skill modification (which really wouldn't explain the text on the attachments...):
Doer said:
Most of my tests were with the intent to check the effect of attachments on maxed SIB weapons. My tentative conclusion was that they don't improve hit rate, as seen by the large departure from the expected hit rate (highlighted in yellow). This begs the question of what Marco meant in the live chat at Leipzig:
Jimmy_B: Hi Marco. Thanks for giving this chat! Thought I'd give this a go hehe :) Do laser sights and scopes perform any function on maxed out weapons?
Marco_MindArk: I believe that the attachment mods come after the Skill mods but I am not sure about that.
Marco_MindArk: Meaning Yes, the affect it.
Marco_MindArk: (it should be like that anyway).
Click to expand...
My thoughts are that he didn't really know how skill mod attachments work, but until he is willing to clarify, we won't know.
Click to expand...

(Apparently nobody at MA has been able to figure out how they work still, after a number of years. :p)
 
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remontoire said:
This would be testable by running a test where you spend x amount of ammo decked out with attachments, chip out and redo without. In fact, you can probably even just do it consecutively, and see if in one case you get more skill volume in specific skills, which you can check using the scanner.

You get more skills with more decay, so if there was a skew to sepcific skilsl that too would be detectable.
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well if i'm right there is more to it than that. :)

Doer said:
Here's the quote by Marco i was remembering earlier. It suggests that the "Skill Mod" is a skill gain increase rather than effective skill modification (which really wouldn't explain the text on the attachments...):
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Nope it wont explain the text on the scopes, but it would confirm my thoughts on how it works, IF that is what they do.
 
Legion said:
Nope it wont explain the text on the scopes, but it would confirm my thoughts on how it works, IF that is what they do.
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Well fortunately anything can confirm your thoughts. That's the beauty of being cryptic. :laugh:
 
remontoire said:
This would be testable by running a test where you spend x amount of ammo decked out with attachments, chip out and redo without. In fact, you can probably even just do it consecutively, and see if in one case you get more skill volume in specific skills, which you can check using the scanner.

You get more skills with more decay, so if there was a skew to sepcific skilsl that too would be detectable.
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or get find a complete noob ava with no skills, get him 50PED and just shoot snables, and then find another "empty" noob, do the same, rinse and repeat.
 
Doer said:
Well fortunately anything can confirm your thoughts. That's the beauty of being cryptic. :laugh:
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i guess so :rolleyes:
But i worked on something for a few minutes now and i think i'm on to something, gotta go test it later on.. but right now it's examtime.. FINALLY got a darn reply from my handler.
 
Legion said:
But well 99% of the community dont belive in me so why bother :)
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They dont believe you cause you never gave information, which proof only a bit of your theorie. You only make Threads like the last Mining-theorie-log and then simple dont do anything.
So not you are tired of the community, its the other way round ;)
 
If i got it right------> Scopes Improving your aim...Now the question is how.???

One thing is certain....:)

1. You dont getting more skills from it.:D
2. You dont get more Dmg from it.:laugh:
3. You dont get more Crit from it.:yay:

But you need to pay for it, is it not funny.:lolup:
 
Doer said:
Well Shoti, to be fair, seeing how much variance is in the hit percentage in the bigger datasets collected in this VU, i'm not sure how conclusive we can say the pre-VU10 results were. Maybe coop can figure out the confidence, but realistically we didn't have very large statistical samples. What data there was seemed to be pretty uniformly and strongly supportive of the hypothesis, though.

Worst case scenario: there were an awful lot of coincidences all conveniently supporting the idea that skill mod is an effective modifier of HA. It was enough to convince me to use attachments on my unmaxed weapons at the time, believing they would improve the HA.

Here's the quote by Marco i was remembering earlier. It suggests that the "Skill Mod" is a skill gain increase rather than effective skill modification (which really wouldn't explain the text on the attachments...):


(Apparently nobody at MA has been able to figure out how they work still, after a number of years. :p)
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I dont think all those scopes & laser users has "just a feeling" about how they work during all those years. As we dont have huge amount of test posted here on ef, that not mean that test wasn't conducted. I remeber myself in 2005 before i start using scopes and lasers did small test run ( never posted any results here ) wchich convince me to use that kind of atachments. Ever later in 2007 when quoted by me test occured i done small test on unmaxed SIB weapons to check if HA is affected by atachments and results were positive. This was time when i was starting and walking throu SIB rifles was quite fast ( opalo to lr32 throug all breers can be made in 2-3 months easly )


Even posted test ( with named samples, %'s, HA changes etc.) cant be treated like proofs - description over HA clearly says that it depends on kind of target, however most of results posted on EF fited with theeir results to some thin range of results , no mater what weapon or kind of target was used to perform them (more on less from HA formula) , wchich shows to me ,that even ppl without some special science preparation about test methodology could get their mainly acurate answers about atachments impact on HA. Therefore they pay for using them. If todays all that proper tests, or just "feelings" ,or call it wahtewer you like turns to be false how can u name that other like scam ? Missinformation, hiding of truth are softest words wchich comes into mine mind.
 
Blind Guardian said:
They dont believe you cause you never gave information, which proof only a bit of your theorie. You only make Threads like the last Mining-theorie-log and then simple dont do anything.
So not you are tired of the community, its the other way round ;)
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True that i havent provided any solid proof, except saying that my theories works for me. But my view is this, theories are fun and if someone has a theory let him have it and if he posts about it then good. If you then decide to not belive in it or not is another thing, but then why not just test it yourself and see if it works for you? Instead of no i dont belive it i must bash the person who posted about it into pieces. (which is most often what happends on this forum) If you dont belive in a theory well then dont post in the thread any more, it's as simple as that. However one could debate with the person why it should work like he thinks in a polite and constructive manner, which sadly not that many are capable of here on the forum.
 
even in the real scientific forum, people will bash on each other theories...
much worser than this forum. real scientist wont give much about it. They will just write a book and then publish it,
later they will proably be burned alive or died from a horrible disease.
in a few hundred years they will be famous and stuffs...

to all scientists and researchers who post on this forum

The only thing you should really worry about , is this forum wont last a few hundred years.
 
All in all I think a new support mail is needed about attachments:

"Dear Support team,

:rofl: ROFL :rofl:

King regards,
the Entropia Community."
​


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doer
Most of my tests were with the intent to check the effect of attachments on maxed SIB weapons. My tentative conclusion was that they don't improve hit rate, as seen by the large departure from the expected hit rate (highlighted in yellow). This begs the question of what Marco meant in the live chat at Leipzig:
Quote:
Jimmy_B: Hi Marco. Thanks for giving this chat! Thought I'd give this a go hehe :) Do laser sights and scopes perform any function on maxed out weapons?
Marco_MindArk: I believe that the attachment mods come after the Skill mods but I am not sure about that.
Marco_MindArk: Meaning Yes, the affect it.
Marco_MindArk: (it should be like that anyway).
Click to expand...


Don´t be worry, perhaps only God knows the answer.:)
 
Legion said:
True that i havent provided any solid proof, except saying that my theories works for me. But my view is this, theories are fun and if someone has a theory let him have it and if he posts about it then good. If you then decide to not belive in it or not is another thing, but then why not just test it yourself and see if it works for you? Instead of no i dont belive it i must bash the person who posted about it into pieces. (which is most often what happends on this forum) If you dont belive in a theory well then dont post in the thread any more, it's as simple as that. However one could debate with the person why it should work like he thinks in a polite and constructive manner, which sadly not that many are capable of here on the forum.
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You don't even have a clue what a real "theory" is...

In modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" refers to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with the scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it.
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shoti said:
someone get any answer from support ?
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the devs are working on an answer at the moment aparantly.. no eta though..
 
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