The efficiency of scopes/lasers, Feb 2010

[Jimmy B]

90-100% range from [pro] level 0 to 100 for non-SIBs. I updated the wiki.

Thanks.

I'd be interested to see how this cost compares to using range extending enhancers but not enough to do the calculation myself: i wouldn't use either of them for this purpose alone.

I can see some value in using the enhancers with on a tag gun, so yes it's worth the consideration.

Range enhancer costs 40 PEC at tt, and adds 5% range. Assuming enhancers break on average every 1000 clicks, which seems to be the number people are throwing around, then per click the enhancer costs PercentageMarkup * 0.04 PEC.

Two Hunnir+Jzar costs 0.286 PEC per click.
Two Abrer+Alekz costs 0.121 PEC per click

And enhancers add to max range so they have an impact on a maxed gun.

One Bjornir scope (0.039 PEC), or one Abrer sight (0.046) would be comparable in cost to using one enhancer bought at tt price. If I knew what a Bjornir scope or an Abrer sight did, I could continue with the analysis

 

[Dorsai]

I predict that after an update there will be an official reply.

It will state what lasers/scopes do, if not give exact figures.

People will carry out tests, and find that they do what is stated.

I also predict that these tests will have been done in the past and in the past the test results showed they did nothing, even though the same test the following week show they do something.
Lets see how it turns out.

 

[Wille]

Nicely thought out theory.

But I don't think it'd change most people's opinion on scopes/sights being basically useless. No-one put scopes and sights on their gun thinking they'll get an extra 3m range. It just wouldn't be worth the decay.

But as far as I know, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, the range you get on a gun is determined by your relevant profession level, not just your Aim skill - in which case the theory doesn't fully add up.

Thank you for the compliment. I totaly agree that its not worth it, at lest not in the senario I made up above.

Well maybe the skill modifications boosts the entire profession relevant for aim, or if it only boosts aim the effect is even smaller then in my example.

Just making another interpretation of the information than the one that was "proven"(?) wrong by this thread.

/Wille

 

[Doer]

Thank you for the compliment. I totaly agree that its not worth it, at lest not in the senario I made up above.

Well maybe the skill modifications boosts the entire profession relevant for aim, or if it only boosts aim the effect is even smaller then in my example.

Just making another interpretation of the information than the one that was "proven"(?) wrong by this thread.

/Wille

There's a number associated with the modifier, given as a percentage, and high values are attainable. 25+% of any other meaningful quantity besides the two this thread addressed should be pretty obvious. If MA had left it as some unquantified value by calling it simply, say "Skill Increase Bonus", they'd be fine. However, in their early days (before they had maxed the professional standing in political doublespeak), they made the mistake of giving attachments a Skill Modifier with a fixed percentage attached. We would like them to make that number mean something that it could reasonably be construed to mean. I don't even care if they quietly do it and announce it as if it's always been that way (as several have suggested their approach would be), after which it can be verified independently that it does, indeed, do what they say--just so long as they don't simply leave it as a clear fraud.

 

[Wille]

I'd be interested to see how this cost compares to using range extending enhancers but not enough to do the calculation myself: i wouldn't use either of them for this purpose alone.



90-100% range from level 0 to 100 for non-SIBs. I updated the wiki.

Im I right to say that range extender enhancers extends the maximum range of your weapond, but do nothing for your proffessions and skills?

In that case, someone wanting to extands his/her range might have to use both (depending on skill lvl (and on if scopes/lasers actually do any thing at all ).

/Wille

 

[Wille]

There's a number associated with the modifier, given as a percentage, and high values are attainable. 25+% of any other meaningful quantity besides the two this thread addressed should be pretty obvious. If MA had left it as some unquantified value by calling it simply, say "Skill Increase Bonus", they'd be fine. However, in their early days (before they had maxed the professional standing in political doublespeak), they made the mistake of giving attachments a Skill Modifier with a fixed percentage attached. We would like them to make that number mean something that it could reasonably be construed to mean. I don't even care if they quietly do it and announce it as if it's always been that way (as several have suggested their approach would be), after which it can be verified independently that it does, indeed, do what they say--just so long as they don't simply leave it as a clear fraud.

I would love to see MA calrify the use and purpose of these modifiers as well, they have been a mystery for far to long.

/Wille

 

[JohnCapital]

Y'all can argue about this "distance" all you want, or you can test it.

Oops, too late. I already have. Observe.

We begin in a flat PVP location, at the maximum distance that my Fire Forge will reach (given my skills) in this case, 125 meters distance. NO attachments. (Note 200 shots left)


Sure enough, I hit. (199 shots)


So I scoot back 2 meters, and note that I shot, but get no miss or dmg stat, indicating that I am too far away to hit. (198 shots)


So now I attach 2 Hunnir, 1 Jzar (surely enough to cross the 2 meters) and again, I shoot. (197 shots)


Seems I'm still too far away.

Indicating that scopes and lasers do exactly squat for instant range gratification.


(My thanks to my lovely wife for allowing me to shoot her. )

 

[Jimmy B]

Nice JC.

Well maybe the skill modifications boosts the entire profession relevant for aim, or if it only boosts aim the effect is even smaller then in my example.

It would be a really small impact if it did just effectively increase aim skill and adjust your pro-level accordingly. So small in fact that most people would probably conclude from tests that they do nothing. D)

But ultimately, if it did affect range in some way, then it would be inconsistent not to show it in the range stats (which should change when you attach the sights/scope in much the same way the stats change when you put on an amp or an enhancer).

 

[Wille]

Y'all can argue about this "distance" all you want, or you can test it.

Oops, too late. I already have. Observe.

We begin in a flat PVP location, at the maximum distance that my Fire Forge will reach (given my skills) in this case, 125 meters distance. NO attachments. (Note 200 shots left)


Sure enough, I hit. (199 shots)


So I scoot back 2 meters, and note that I shot, but get no miss or dmg stat, indicating that I am too far away to hit. (198 shots)


So now I attach 2 Hunnir, 1 Jzar (surely enough to cross the 2 meters) and again, I shoot. (197 shots)


Seems I'm still too far away.

Indicating that scopes and lasers do exactly squat for instant range gratification.


(My thanks to my lovely wife for allowing me to shoot her. )

Thx for doing the legwork! Suppose can cross that teori of the list too.

/Wille

 

[Wille]

Nice JC.

But ultimately, if it did affect range in some way, then it would be inconsistent not to show it in the range stats (which should change when you attach the sights/scope in much the same way the stats change when you put on an amp or an enhancer).

Agreed

/Wille

 

[JohnCapital]

Well all this is fun, but it still doesn't solve the problem of what support meant when they said:

it only affects the effective range of the weapon.

 

[Wille]

New Theory

Maybe "the effective range" is an interval within the full range of the weapon
within which the hit rate is better or possibly the average dmg is greater.

________________Full range
|---------------------------->
______________<----------->
______________Effective range

Then the purpose of lasers/scopes would be to extend the width of this effective range interval.

/Wille

 

[Legion]

Maybe "the effective range" is an interval within the full range of the weapon
within which the hit rate is better or possibly the average dmg is greater.

________________Full range
|---------------------------->
______________<----------->
______________Effective range

Then the purpose of lasers/scopes would be to extend the width of this effective range interval.

/Wille

which is just what i said earlier

 

[MoFo]

Where can i download this program"Entropia Tracker Suite"?

btw good work on the data, i like.

 

[Legion]

Where can i download this program"Entropia Tracker Suite"?

btw good work on the data, i like.

http://www.entropiatracker.com/

 

[Legion]

just got this from support

2010-05-12 18:56 Entropia Universe Support: Hi, There have been some more questions regarding scopes, therefore the design team is currently putting together information to reply to everyone's questions. This will be posted in our News section in the very near future, although we do not have an exact date. We apologize for the waiting time but asure you it will be worth it. Thank you for your patience. Kind regards, Entropia Universe Support

 

[Killahbee]

just got this from support

after a looooong time we finaly get what we deserve... answers

 

[TonySamTaler]

But not before 2018 comes the answer...

 

[tilka]

just got this from support

it will be worth to wait ?
for what ? to tell us they do f... all , we already figured out (well thanks to aboo and others)

maybe they will give them some meaning in a next update

 

[Lugzan]

just got this from support

2010-05-12 18:56 Entropia Universe Support: Hi, There have been some more questions regarding scopes, therefore the design team is currently putting together information to reply to everyone's questions. This will be posted in our News section in the very near future, although we do not have an exact date. We apologize for the waiting time but asure you it will be worth it. Thank you for your patience. Kind regards, Entropia Universe Support

mkay,


worth in that sentence means worth for users to know. now, I'm wondering if the value will come up to be :
A. without them you'd have lost extra 5% of eco in the past
B. now that you know it, start using them accordingly and forget the past...

=)


J.

 

[Doer]

That's an amazing support response (given the context). I seem to recall a very similar kind of comment about the egg. Apparently it will take our breath away. ,-)

Hey, maybe the egg contains an uber sight and scope?

Anyway we've provided a pretty clear indication here of what we have/haven't and can/can't test so they have all the details they need to come up with a story that fits in without giving anything away. But jaded conspiracy theories aside, regardless of the content, if an official announcement is made on the actual effects of attachments, it will take my breath away.

 

[valentin]

just got this from support

So that means that the MA has lied to us about the effectiveness of scopess and skill gain Because the design team got last minute panic to fix something.

Just wondering how much more they have lied to us.

 

[valentin]

So that means that the MA has lied to us about the effectiveness of scopess and skill gain Because the design team got last minute panic to fix something.

Just wondering how much more they have lied to us.

And how much money they have earned that people has crafted and the Used Scopes built on a lie.

 

[Lugzan]

And how much money they have earned that people has crafted and the Used Scopes built on a lie.

I actually would not be surprised if the ones that used them will be pleased doing so


J.

 

[Igorl]

This is great.

Ive allways knows thing like skills and modifiers had little impact on overall gameplay, yet to have a whole series of 2 kind of items build not to do ANYTHING but decay* -> its just too much

* To be more specific -> built to decay and lower the hitrate according to test...

I.

 

[Jimmy B]

If an official announcement is made on the actual effects of attachments, it will take my breath away.

Oh uh, I sense its time for hell to freeze over again

I actually would not be surprised if the ones that used them will be pleased doing so

J.

Me too. They don't do what we thought they did, and it appears they don't do anything (useful) that the community can conceive of (based on the descriptions and stats) and test effectively. But maybe they do something we just haven't thought of testing yet.

I think we're probably misled by outdated/confusing item descriptions and stats (I own a Fire Forge 'Big Game Hunter' 4400. It's a nice tag gun, but an Atrox Young would bite it in two, never mind a real big mob), and a hurried and misleading, or misreported, support case statement.

 

[valentin]

Oh uh, I sense its time for hell to freeze over again




Me too. They don't do what we thought they did, and it appears they don't do anything (useful) that the community can conceive of (based on the descriptions and stats) and test effectively. But maybe they do something we just haven't thought of testing yet.

I think we're probably misled by outdated/confusing item descriptions and stats (I own a Fire Forge 'Big Game Hunter' 4400. It's a nice tag gun, but an Atrox Young would bite it in two, never mind a real big mob), and a hurried and misleading, or misreported, support case statement.

No matter what they do but they dont need to lie about it feels like they stealing money from os.

 

[NewNoob]

It's more then misleading and just plain fraud.

Read the info on the scopes and sights and it specificalyl says "This Scope/Sight will improve the shooters aim".

If it improves your aim then it will do one thing and thats make you hit more often, if you dont then it isn't improving your aim and it is just plain fraud to get you to spend more on decay for nothing.

I might still be a noob but I do have the first few guns maxed so I did testing like others on here with an opalo, 2 hunnir and a jzarr. Did 8 test runs on merp young (only young incease of hit decrease with older mob) 4 without attachments 4 with attachments both at 2500 shots so should be a big enough pool for a viable result.

Average without attachements = 90.43% hit rate.
Average with attachements = 89.88% hit rate.

If they did anything to improve your aim then i'd expect after 10k shots that with attachments would be have an atleast slightly higher hit rate then without attachments not a lower one.

So it will be nice to see what MA make up show that they do increase your aim while not actually increasing the amount of times you hit something to prove they havn't been lying about the item info.

 

[sitram]

The statementon the scope description is not totally wrong.

The scope defenetly improve my aim for ML45. It's hard to see a GD from 130m distance even if I run EU with settings on Very High. The scope helps me to see the GD better and allow me to not miss him while shooting due to movements of the rifle. When I try to hit something from distance, even a small movement of my mouse makes me loose the target from sight and miss.

 

[NewNoob]

True depending on how you interpret improving your aim to mean.

Theres 2 ways to miss a mob you can either not have it target on your crosshair properly so that its a 100% miss all the time (in other words a player miss) or when you do have it targeted properly then you have your random chance to miss (from the dice roll miss) otherwise nearly everyone would never miss.

If you miss at 130m without a scope then its most likely because of player miss jsut from not being on target or liek you said from shooting while moving. If you had the scope on and shot in that same place it still would not of had a chance to hit.

However if you had the scope on then naturally you would of zoomed in and the crosshair would of been on the target eliminating a player miss or if moving had a much lower chance of a player miss so if you did miss while zoomed in it most likey would of been cause of a dice roll miss.

So even if a scope lowers your number of player misses it still has a % skill modifier on it and says it improves your aim (i expect the 2 to be linked otherwise what does the modifier modify?) so your hit % should go up. You can disregard being able to zoom as being part of the
improves your aim" in this case as you can completely rule out player misses just by getting close enough to a mob in which case you still have the % modifier on the scope doing its job (well make believe job) so if the "improves your aim" part was only refering to being able to zoom in and miss less then your back to wtf is the % modifier doing......

Scopes also typically having a lower % skill modifier on them compared to sights which would also relfect this as they can let you zoom in and reduce your amount of player misses (which you cant do with sights) so they for having this additional ability over sights they compensate by having a lower % skill modifier for the dice roll misses.

This however is the reason why while I wont be using sights I will still continue to use a scope even though it wont improve my hit % outside of player misses (not just for lowering player misses at range but I just like being able to zoom in too ).