The efficiency of scopes/lasers - Statistics/Discussion

Recoda

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A lot of research, and attempts to research the efficiency of items with skillmodification have been made the last couple of months. The last thread was rather messy, so I thought we could just try to gather all of the statistics and test samples on the first page instead. So, those will be found in the next post.

The old thread can be found here

Hit Ability
The Hit Ability on a weapon determines how often the user will be able to hit the target. It is affected by your skills, certain skills affects the Hit Ability in a certain way, some more than others. The H/A may also be higher or lower depending on if the weapon is a SIB weapon or not.

Previous tests have shown that the H/A ranges from 80% hits (0.0) to 91% hits (10.0). The impact which this will have on the economy of the weapon is rather impressive, which is why most people out there who are yet to max a regular weapon are instead using limited ones, or SIB weapons.

The efficiency of items with skillmodification on non-maxed weapons
It is believed, or at least - I believe that items with skillmodification will increase your (real) Hit Ability. It is yet to be shown on the weapons stats, but my tests have shown that the Hit Rate is indeed increased.

My test have so far shown that the skillmodification increases your H/A with the skillmodification percentage number on the item. Thus, an item with 30% in skillmodification would increase the weapons H/A from 5.0 to 6.5.

The efficiency of items with skillmodification on maxed weapons
This is currently unknown, it is however possible that these items with skillmodification also increases your skillgain, or such.

Attachments and their TT Value
I have yet to do any large tests with attachments that have a low TT Value. It may however be possible that the TT Value of the attachments have an impact on their efficiency. This means that a laser with half its TT value may not increase the H/A as much as a laser with a maximum TT Value. This has yet to be shown in any large tests however.
 
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Recoda

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Test Sample 1 - 5000 Shoots:

I thought I'd do another large test to see what the results would be. And so far, they're still positive. It's a hard task to fire 5000 shots, as that would end up being approximately 100k Ammo Cells on a Strikehammer. I thought I'd be better off just using a regular Mann MPH, as it is faster - and the possible loss while doing such a test would be lesser.


Here's a diagram over the amount of misses per 100 shoots.
As you can see, the amount of misses ranged from 7 to 24.
It is possible that the misses over 20 were caused by lag, package loss or such,
which may mean that the Hit Rate should be higher.

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 5.2
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.72%
Skill Modification: 30%
Modified Hit Ability: 6.76
Modified Hit Rate: 87.43%

Result
Total Shoots: 4696
Total Hits: 4100
Real Hit Rate: 87.31%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 6.64

Test done by: Recoda

Test Sample 2 - 1000 Shoots:

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Improved Mk. II
Hit Ability: 5.3
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.83%
Skill Modification: 52.5%
Modified Hit Ability: 8.08
Modified Hit Rate: 88.88%

Results - Without Attachments
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 846
Real Hit Rate: 84.6%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 4.2

Results - With Attachments
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 862
Real Hit Rate: 86.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 5.65

Test done by: RazorFire

Test Sample 3 - 1000 Shoots:

Stats, calculations:
Weapon Used: Improved Mk. II
Hit Ability: 4.7
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.17%
Skill Modification: 52.5%
Modified Hit Ability: 7.16
Modified Hit Rate: 87.87%

Result without attachments:
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 823
Real Hit Rate: 82.3%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 2.1

Result with attachments:
Total Shoots: 1000
Total Hits: 854
Real Hit Rate: 85.4%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 4.9

Test done by: RazorFire

Test Sample 4 - 500 Shoots:

Stats, calculations:
Hit Ability: 4.63
Calculated Hit Rate: 85.1%
Skill Modification: 36.0%
Modified Hit Ability: 6.30
Modified Hit Rate: 86.9%

Result without attachments:
Total Shoots: 500
Total Hits: 431
Real Hit Rate: 86.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 5.63

Result with attachments:
Total Shoots: 500
Total Hits: 436
Real Hit Rate: 87.2%
Hit Ability for such Hit Rate: 6.54

Test done by: Witte
 
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Recoda

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Test Sample 1 - PvP Battle:

This test was made to see what kind of an impact skills have on PvP-Battles.

Maxed Stats
Weapon Used: M2100
Hit Ability: 10.0
Total Shoots: 100
Hit Rate: 100%

Low Hit Ability
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 1.0
Total Shoots: 5x100
Hit Rate: 81.8 +- 4.3%

Without Attachments
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 4.7
Total Shoots: 2x100
Critical Hit: 1/200
Hit Rate: 97%

With Attachments
Weapon Used: Mann MPH
Hit Ability: 4.17
Skill Modification: 28%
Modified Hit Ability: 5.34
Critical Hit: 1/200
Hit Rate: 98% +- 2

Result:
It apparently is indeed possible to get 100% hits in PvP. What's not so certain is the nature of the range from 0 HA to 10 HA. The base HA gives around 0.8 hit rate -- the same as against mobs -- but even at just halfway to maxed i was getting nearly perfect hits. I think it might be a higher order curve than linear, which would mean that skill mod attachments in PvP would be less effective than against mobs (and also mean that low (Hit) skills in PvP aren't as important); however, it is not certain from my tests if skill mod does anything at all in PvP.



Test done by: Doer
 
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Witte

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A suggestion for these test would be to determin the total decay of the amp or gun, and with it calculate the actual number of shots fired. I notice that in case of lagg your ammo is returned sometimes, as if the shot never happned. That might effect the outcome of these tests.
 

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I know I read somewhere (I think on the ingame mouse over info) something to the effect that Hit Ability is a ranking but does not translate into a percentage chance. That among the determing factors of actually hitting something is the creature you are shooting. Something I feel that MUST be taken into account (though will be very difficult to do so) is not only the MOB type, but also Maturity.

I have seen on many instances during a hunt, more misses on higher level mobs (Gen 07, 08 Drones) than I have on lower level (Gen 01-04 Drones). While there may be a smaller variance between closer maturities, I don't believe it is insignificant enough to be able to completely disregard.

Edit: Something else to take into thought. I have experienced and read on various things throughout my time to lead me to another possible variable for actual Hit Rate (vs. Hit Ability). I believe that weapon selection mixed with skills may have an effect. (i.e. someone may miss more with a MK V than they would with a MK I.) Although it does not seem as though that would be an issue here, as the weapon in each case is the same.
 
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Doer

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For reference, the previous thread was here.

Based on the possibility that the skill mod works as Recoda believes (our working hypothesis), I did some calculations on how much attachments will increase (or decrease) your economy with some weapons and they can be found here. Witte has included the ability to calculate this in the wiki weapon chart if you check the box "Attachments".

Here are my test results (original post 2nd 3rd):


Most of my tests were with the intent to check the effect of attachments on maxed SIB weapons. My tentative conclusion was that they don't improve hit rate, as seen by the large departure from the expected hit rate (highlighted in yellow). This begs the question of what Marco meant in the live chat at Leipzig:
Jimmy_B: Hi Marco. Thanks for giving this chat! Thought I'd give this a go hehe :) Do laser sights and scopes perform any function on maxed out weapons?
Marco_MindArk: I believe that the attachment mods come after the Skill mods but I am not sure about that.
Marco_MindArk: Meaning Yes, the affect it.
Marco_MindArk: (it should be like that anyway).
My thoughts are that he didn't really know how skill mod attachments work, but until he is willing to clarify, we won't know.

We also don't know how the modification works at high HA levels. The two possibilities are that the effective HA simply increases until it hits 10.0, or that the increase contribution decreases gradually at high levels so that only at 10.0. HA does one effectively get 10.0 HA. I believe the first makes more sense, but no testing has verified that, yet.

There was just one sample of each of the tests on the unmaxed weapon, so that data is not very meaningful. However, it does generally support the working hypothesis about how the attachments work.

One big missing piece we need to help verify any results is the correct hit rate at 0 HA. It needs to be verified that it is indeed 80. We already guessed that the highest HA is 91% rather than 92% based on our (my) tests, so it is imperative to check the base HA, too.
 
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Coffee

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This is to add to the above post I made. This is the mouse over information from in game regarding Hit Ability. Clearly there needs to be taken into account more than just weapon setup vs. skills comparisons. I don't think it can be argued from the below pic that choice of target is not a factor in % of shots that hit vs. miss. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. (Just give some explenation as to why though ;) )

 
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Recoda

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This is to add to the above post I made. This is the mouse over information from in game regarding Hit Ability. Clearly there needs to be taken into account more than just weapon setup vs. skills comparisons. I don't think it can be argued from the below pic that choice of target is not a factor in % of shots that hit vs. miss. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. (Just give some explenation as to why though ;) )
That's very interesting. I could swear that the last sentence wasn't there last time I checked it, I've always been wondering if the Hit Ability was indeed affected by the enemy though. Thanks for that post, + Rep.

So, does this mean that different creatures require a different level in the Hit Ability in order to have an efficient Hit Rate?
Or, does this mean that, even at 10.0/10.0 in Hit Ability, you won't be as successful to kill one creature, as the other?

I think we would have to try different maxed weapons on different creatures to see what the results would turn out to be. More testing has to be done I guess.
 
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CycoKick

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That's very interesting. I could swear that the last sentence wasn't there last time I checked it, I've always been wondering if the Hit Ability was indeed affected by the enemy though. Thanks for that post, + Rep.

So, does this mean that different creatures require a different level in the Hit Ability in order to have an efficient Hit Rate?
Or, does this mean that, even at 10.0/10.0 in Hit Ability, you won't be as successful to kill one creature, as the other?

I think we would have to try different maxed weapons on different creatures to see what the results would turn out to be. More testing has to be done I guess.

To be honest I definatly think that it is possible to build up a certain affinity for weapons.
When u get a new gun, it will always feel weird to use because its new and u got to get used to it. But I always noticed that afther a few long hunts my guns just work better.

And for instance I like to overhunt and lose peds :laugh: so I often go afther mobs with UL guns that are a challenge to hunt and I miss much much more then even at pointblank range so its not because i suck at aiming:)
While going afther the smaller variants i tend to feel i hit more and even have a higher average damage.
 

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Most of my tests were with the intent to check the effect of attachments on maxed SIB weapons. My tentative conclusion was that they don't improve hit rate, as seen by the large departure from the expected hit rate (highlighted in yellow). This begs the question of what Marco meant in the live chat at Leipzig:

EU is dynamic, it could be possible they changed it because they saw people did not add the extra decay from attachments to their expenses while using (L) weapons.
 

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...
So, does this mean that different creatures require a different level in the Hit Ability in order to have an efficient Hit Rate?
Or, does this mean that, even at 10.0/10.0 in Hit Ability, you won't be as successful to kill one creature, as the other?

...
I think it's a little bit of both. I don't believe (haven't for a long time) that weapons aren't skill oreinted either. Someone once asked of Marco in one of the Q & A's about why they don't make the use of unlimited weapons a progressive system based on players skills. Marco's only reply was "What makes you think it doesn't work like that already?" Case in point:

I have hunted the hell out of Drones using many different weapons for long periods of time. I can loose out sorely on them using a Maddox IV/Beast or 147 ME / Beast all the time. When I was using only a Justifier MK II / 104 amp I was breaking even every time (after selling gazz) and the two ubers I got were with this combo. I tried upping the amp to a 105 back then but found that I wasn't able to break even then. I've recently taken a departure from hunting my Scips and hit the Drones again. This time I tried out my EP-41 / 104 combo and found that I can break even with them and even profit a little from the Gazz.

I really do think that the other comment Marco stated during some Q & A holds very true (although may change as you progress). Paraphrased but something to the effect of, 'Anyone can do well. You just need to find the right combination of weapon and mob.'

Edit: It may have been equipement and not weapon now that I think about it more. Never the less weapon was what I read into it.

Edit 2: I should have pointed out that I still do terrible hunting Drones with the 147 ME / Beast combo even though I'm doing well with the EP-41 / 104 combo. Based on what we believe so far my theoretical economy is actually higher on the 147 ME / Beast than it is on the EP-41 / 104. I have over 1.5k more in both Rifle and BLP Tech than I do in HG and Laser Tech. The return difference though is grossly obvious and in favor of the EP-41.
 
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Recoda

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It's true that there is a possibility that you will be more efficient with an Mk.II than with an Mk.V if your skills are a better fit with the Mk.II - even if the H/A is the same. It'd be great if it actually did work like that, but there's nothing which proves it yet.

I keep thinking about that sentance though "Hit ability also depends on the choice of enemy and is not the actual hit percentage."

Another thing which got me thinking is the explanation for the damage interval, it says "Actual damage may be lower if enemy has protection, such as armor."

Now, notice that neither of these states that the enemy may be a PvP-target?
We all know that enemies in the PvP-zone may carry an armor, which will lead to a lowered damage interval. However, as far as we know, no creature carry any armor at the moment. So, the second explanation about the damage interval was only focused on PvP-battles. Isn't it also possible that the first explanation, the one about the Hit Ability was also directed towards PvP-Targets?
It could be, it is definitely harder to hit PvP-Targets with higher defense skills, so perhaps the creatures will still be just as hard to hit, no matter which maturity level or stamina they have?

This is just another guess though, we'd have to try the same weapon on different creatures in order to see if it's true, or if it's harder to be efficient on certain creatures than others.

Edit 2: This may only have a small affect to the final result, but do you use any finisher on the drones, or do you simply fire the last shoot with your 147ME / EP41?

The EP-41 costs 16,34 Pec per shoot while the 147 ME costs 18,00 Pec per shoot.
 
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Coffee

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It's true that there is a possibility that you will be more efficient with an Mk.II than with an Mk.V if your skills are a better fit with the Mk.II - even if the H/A is the same. It'd be great if it actually did work like that, but there's nothing which proves it yet.

I keep thinking about that sentance though "Hit ability also depends on the choice of enemy and is not the actual hit percentage."

Another thing which got me thinking is the explanation for the damage interval, it says "Actual damage may be lower if enemy has protection, such as armor."

Now, notice that neither of these states that the enemy may be a PvP-target?
We all know that enemies in the PvP-zone may carry an armor, which will lead to a lowered damage interval. However, as far as we know, no creature carry any armor at the moment. So, the second explanation about the damage interval was only focused on PvP-battles. Isn't it also possible that the first explanation, the one about the Hit Ability was also directed towards PvP-Targets?
It could be, it is definitely harder to hit PvP-Targets with higher defense skills, so perhaps the creatures will still be just as hard to hit, no matter which maturity level or stamina they have?

This is just another guess though, we'd have to try the same weapon on different creatures in order to see if it's true, or if it's harder to be efficient on certain creatures than others.

Edit 2: This may only have a small affect to the final result, but do you use any finisher on the drones, or do you simply fire the last shoot with your 147ME / EP41?

The EP-41 costs 16,34 Pec per shoot while the 147 ME costs 18,00 Pec per shoot.
Very good point about the possible intent of the statement. I tend to think it was added though (and yes you are right, it was an addition that wasn't always there) not just because of pvp vs hunting differences.

As far as a finisher goes, I never use them and never will. If there was a an eco difference to take into account for overkill, that would easily be nullified by the lack of armor decay. I can take down low level drones before they reach the range of returning fire with the 147 ME. I take much more damage on armor with the slower and closer EP-41. Never the less, even with greater armor decay taken into account, I will do much better on my returns with the EP-41.

Edit: Sorry that I don't actually have data on shots as well. The only thing I track is return vs. expense as that's my bottom line. For me it's always been a matter of weapon vs. mob combination to find. Once I find one that works I tend to stick with it for a while.
 

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Something to add that may help some. I only just thought of this as it's been quite some time since I was using a MK II on a regular basis. I used to recommend the MK II to society mates as it was such a great producer for me at the time. After they did so though, I would usually hear a bunch of complaints about cost and loss. That missed shots were a problem for them (mind you they were MUCH less skilled than I). I thought it was strange because I used to tout how I almost never missed while hunting Drones with it.

Not very scientific :laugh: but true none the less. At that time with my then skill set, with that weapon, and that mob I had very very few misses during hunts. I used to, brag :rolleyes: if you would about my hit rate in soc. chat.

Edit: One of my soceity mates eventually picked up a MK I though after giving up on the II. He immediately fell in love with it and I heard no further complaints. :)
 
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mjukis

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I have a bit of info that might be interesting for your research.
With imk2 without attachments I have 100% hit rate in pvp (tested on some very high dodge avatars)
With mm on the same avatars I have quite a bit less hit rate without attachments (my base laser pistoleer HA is 8.0), but even with scopes and lasers that would make my laser pistoleer HA greater than my laser sniper I don't get quite 100%
Against mobs I don't notice any difference between imk2 and mm with lasers. There might be one but difference between 100% and slightly below 100% is much easier to see than 91% or just under 91%
So maybe you should add pvp testing to your research as some thing may be easier to see.
 

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This is to add to the above post I made. This is the mouse over information from in game regarding Hit Ability. Clearly there needs to be taken into account more than just weapon setup vs. skills comparisons. I don't think it can be argued from the below pic that choice of target is not a factor in % of shots that hit vs. miss. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. (Just give some explenation as to why though ;) )

I believe it is only different in PVP situations, and mobs all have the same evade of dodge level.
 

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EU is dynamic, it could be possible they changed it because they saw people did not add the extra decay from attachments to their expenses while using (L) weapons.
Anyone who uses SIB weapons and puts sights and scopes on them is welcome to repeat the experiment. I will assume it remains as it was when tested until other evidence disproves it. :laugh:

That's very interesting. I could swear that the last sentence wasn't there last time I checked it, I've always been wondering if the Hit Ability was indeed affected by the enemy though. Thanks for that post, + Rep.

So, does this mean that different creatures require a different level in the Hit Ability in order to have an efficient Hit Rate?
Or, does this mean that, even at 10.0/10.0 in Hit Ability, you won't be as successful to kill one creature, as the other?
That last line has been there a long time. The last time someone brought that up, i said that my take is that it applies to avatars in PvP, where there is actually a dodge skill involved in the calculation. I don't think we need to worry too much about it, but it would be nice if someone does hit tests on two very different stat mobs.

Edit: I see witte replied similarly.
 

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I believe it is only different in PVP situations, and mobs all have the same evade of dodge level.
Understandable to have that position. I only referenced that though to back up my experience with a perceived higher hit rate on lower level Drones versus higher level Drones.

Wether the statement actually references pvp situations solely or is a global intent is still disputable. The whole point to any experiment though is to reduce all possible variables to just the one being studied. As we all agree there is still a great deal of "noise" in trying to track down hit percentage differnces with or without attachments, this would be one less possible variable to eliminate.
 

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Understandable to have that position. I only referenced that though to back up my experience with a perceived higher hit rate on lower level Drones versus higher level Drones.

Wether the statement actually references pvp situations solely or is a global intent is still disputable. The whole point to any experiment though is to reduce all possible variables to just the one being studied. As we all agree there is still a great deal of "noise" in trying to track down hit percentage differnces with or without attachments, this would be one less possible variable to eliminate.
One way of thinking about this is how much mobs miss us when we have any significant level of Evader or Dodger. If mobs had an effective Evader or Dodger ability, it would most likely be pretty obvious. I don't see MA implementing that, though, just like i don't see them implementing damage-type resistance (burn resistance, etc) in mobs: it's a RCE. Difference in mob hp, attack speed and damage is more than enough difference, and all of those don't directly throw away the participants' money.

Occam's Razor aside, it would be good to test, but i don't think we need to make it a priority.
 

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One way of thinking about this is how much mobs miss us when we have any significant level of Evader or Dodger. If mobs had an effective Evader or Dodger ability, it would most likely be pretty obvious. I don't see MA implementing that, though, just like i don't see them implementing damage-type resistance (burn resistance, etc) in mobs: it's a RCE. Difference in mob hp, attack speed and damage is more than enough difference.
Well could the answer lay in the simple difference in agility on Drone maturities? Why then would MA even bother to put a difference in there for each Drone? It would be simple to tie in their agility to the hit / miss equation I would think. We already know that the difference in stamina has a purpose in regards to the health of a mob and that varies due to maturity. I think it may be possible that agility does the same for hit rate.

Edit: Gonna have to go on a scanning mission now as Akbar's scans are quite old. Would be interesting to see the differences and wether or not there are changes to the current listings.

Edit 2: I keep seeing something about somebody's Razor theory. :lol: My point though is why make two seperate systems, or more, for determining hit ability? We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger levels when being hit by mobs. We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger skills when being hit by an avatar. We have a system that takes into account our ABILITY to hit an avatar based on their skills. Why wouldn't these all be the same system (equation?) for use with a mob that has a dodge / evade level tied to it?
 
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Witte

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A good way to test this is:

1 fapper (preferable adj or better)
1 shooter (~6-7HA)
Mob: Cersumon young. (Or similar, low hitrate, low damage, high HP)
Weapon: Mann MPH (Attachments with as high as possible skillmod)

I think you can fire about 600-800 shots untill it dies, which will cost just 8-10 PED minus loot. Cersumon are close to a TP and revival, and the Mann has very fast reload. So this seems to be a very efficient way to test it. Both avatars can use anti RSI software :D
 

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Well could the answer lay in the simple difference in agility on Drone maturities? Why then would MA even bother to put a difference in there for each Drone? It would be simple to tie in their agility to the hit / miss equation I would think. We already know that the difference in stamina has a purpose in regards to the health of a mob and that varies due to maturity. I think it may be possible that agility does the same for hit rate.
Intelligence varies hugely on mobs. What is the purpose of this?

The problem with assuming that agility determines a mobs Evader and Dodger ability is that different mobs have huge differences in agility. Drones range from 34 to 37 agility, yet even a generation 01 Second Entity has 123 agility. If agility was the parameter into the hit rate on those mobs, there would have to be a very noticeable difference between SE and drones. I sure haven't seen one.

Edit 2: I keep seeing something about somebody's Razor theory. :lol: My point though is why make two seperate systems, or more, for determining hit ability? We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger levels when being hit by mobs. We have a system that takes into account our evader / dodger skills when being hit by an avatar. We have a system that takes into account our ABILITY to hit an avatar based on their skills. Why wouldn't these all be the same system (equation?) for use with a mob that has a dodge / evade level tied to it?
Occam's Razor basically is to take the least complicated solution when two solutions seem to have equal merit. In this case, it's very easy for MA to simply take a random number 0-1.0, see if it is below 0.8+HA*0.011, and if so, call it a hit.

They could also put the mob agility into that equation somehow, but that would be more complicated and require more careful balancing. It also doesn't fit with the known agilities of mobs.

Witte's proposed experiment is pretty good because the cersumon has very low agility. The problem is that if the difference in hit rate exists, it can't depend on mob agility for the reasons i point out above. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference in hit rate for different mobs, just that it has to involve more than agility.
 

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Occam's Razor aside, it would be good to test, but i don't think we need to make it a priority.
That's the one I was thinking. Not familiar with the theory itself, but sounds like its a version of K.I.S.S. (keep It Simple Stupid) :laugh:

My intention in bringing that forward was not to test that in itself, but to eliminate that as a source of "noise" in the tests. I don't believe we have a good control environment without taking that into consideration when doing these tests. Witte has a good idea above I believe. What we are really trying to determine is the effective difference in hit ability between weapons with and without sights/scopes. The above suggestion by Witte seems rather sound.

Edit: LoL ... sorry... slow poster... thanks for the explanation on the Theory though :)
 

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I have a bit of info that might be interesting for your research.
With imk2 without attachments I have 100% hit rate in pvp (tested on some very high dodge avatars)
With mm on the same avatars I have quite a bit less hit rate without attachments (my base laser pistoleer HA is 8.0), but even with scopes and lasers that would make my laser pistoleer HA greater than my laser sniper I don't get quite 100%
Against mobs I don't notice any difference between imk2 and mm with lasers. There might be one but difference between 100% and slightly below 100% is much easier to see than 91% or just under 91%
So maybe you should add pvp testing to your research as some thing may be easier to see.
Thanks for sharing this mjukis. This shows that there is clearly a different system used to determine the hit rate on avatars versus on mobs. I didn't realize that 100% hit rate was possible in PvP. I surmise you have >= level 100 (Hit) in sniper.

It suggests that the skill mod either 1) works differently in PvP situations, 2) scales non-linearly near 10.0 HA (one of the two cases i mentioned in a previous post) or 3) doesn't increase effective HA.

That's the one I was thinking. Not familiar with the theory itself, but sounds like its a version of K.I.S.S. (keep It Simple Stupid) :laugh:
That's basically what i'm saying, too. The info from mjukis gives some interesting insights though.
 

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Thanks for sharing this mjukis. This shows that there is clearly a different system used to determine the hit rate on avatars versus on mobs. I didn't realize that 100% hit rate was possible in PvP. I surmise you have >= level 100 (Hit) in sniper.

It suggests that the skill mod either 1) works differently in PvP situations, 2) scales non-linearly near 10.0 HA (one of the two cases i mentioned in a previous post) or 3) doesn't increase effective HA.



That's basically what i'm saying, too. The info from mjukis gives some interesting insights though.
I have a thought about that situation myself. (Probably get laughed at here :silly2: ) In my previous post about having better hit percentages with a MK II versus a higher level weapon (i.e. my 147 ME) I believe that the added benefit of the imp, mod, adj weapons lays in there base ranking. You will notice that most of these weapons are of the lower variances in the individual series. (i.e. Adj 97, Mod 117, Imp MK II, etc...)

This to me had begged the question "Why weren't these weapons made with the labels of there higher level couterparts?" and "Why do people do so well with these versus there counterparts?" (That is, why would return be so much better for them on a IMKII vs. a MK V?) For the second question people usually use the Economy answer. For me the answer is quite different. Mine would still follow my belief in skill level requirements on individual weapons and also answer my first question. The Imp, Adj, Mod weaons are tagged with the lower numbers for there series because they have lower requirements than the higher numbered series. That's what makes them so special and so profitable in the past.

I would loveeeeee it if someone would loan mjukis a MK V to work with in PVP and see if his hit rate is still 100% on these higher level avatars. That would really answer a lot of my questions on that area.
 

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Intelligence varies hugely on mobs. What is the purpose of this?
A little bit off topic, but I have read somewhere in the past that mob's intelligence was tied to how often they crit you. So, maybe mob's attributes effectively play a role in how well they attack you and how well they evade/dodge your attacks.

More on topic, and seeing mjukis post, maybe it should be nice to check if we can reproduce the pvp 100% hit rate with an (L) maxed weapon. I don't usually play pvp, but I seem to remember to have missed shots in the ring with a maxed korss 400 (against an avi standing still) :scratch2:
 

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Case in point:

I have hunted the hell out of Drones using many different weapons for long periods of time. I can loose out sorely on them using a Maddox IV/Beast or 147 ME / Beast all the time. When I was using only a Justifier MK II / 104 amp I was breaking even every time (after selling gazz) and the two ubers I got were with this combo. I tried upping the amp to a 105 back then but found that I wasn't able to break even then. I've recently taken a departure from hunting my Scips and hit the Drones again. This time I tried out my EP-41 / 104 combo and found that I can break even with them and even profit a little from the Gazz.

I really do think that the other comment Marco stated during some Q & A holds very true (although may change as you progress). Paraphrased but something to the effect of, 'Anyone can do well. You just need to find the right combination of weapon and mob.'

Edit: It may have been equipement and not weapon now that I think about it more. Never the less weapon was what I read into it.

Edit 2: I should have pointed out that I still do terrible hunting Drones with the 147 ME / Beast combo even though I'm doing well with the EP-41 / 104 combo. Based on what we believe so far my theoretical economy is actually higher on the 147 ME / Beast than it is on the EP-41 / 104. I have over 1.5k more in both Rifle and BLP Tech than I do in HG and Laser Tech. The return difference though is grossly obvious and in favor of the EP-41.
i'm glad to see someone say in writing what i'd been thinking.
and thinking im a bit crazy for thinking it ;)

i experienced this with argo's
was skilling pistol on them with the korrs 380 and a 103 amp so i could max out the 400, and was doing really well..breaking even or profiting a bit on the iron markup.

I was doing so well that once i maxed the korrs 400 i figured i'd keep at them as the higher damage/sec would lead to less decay on armor and fap and even better return.
except it didnt..
at the time i decided to blame the high markup on the korrs 400 which isnt "seen" by the system when calculating what to return to me.
or a personal bad loot period.
but maybe,maybe its what you think you noticed.

but then again,i'm a noob so what do i know ;)
 

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I am not a stats guy so don't burn me at the stake for this if its been mentioned already or is just to "out there" type of observation.

I use scopes and lasers on everything that can be scoped and lasered no matter if it’s SIB or not.

Hitting a mob is only one part of hunting. I can hit mobs in various places some of which seem like more critical areas than others. The critical areas I like to call the "sweet spots". Now adding a couple lasers and scopes should increase your hit rate but I think they also allow you to inflict more successive high damage on mobs. Maybe it increases the "sweet spot" hit box, who knows? I just know when I zoom into a mob at distance with my scope the successive high damage changes than if I shoot at it un-scoped. As the mob closes on me I have to zoom out to keep that damage as high as possible.

Just like in RL hunting if you hunt scoped with a laser sight your shot should be more true and damaging than someone un-scoped and lasers unless they are just a crack shot, which is dependant on skill.

I think while lasers and scopes help you hit mobs they also help you effectively hit mobs inflicting higher rates of damage maybe even generating more critical hits. Some of the weapons that can't be scoped or laser sighted, like the Adj VI, don't seem to suffer as badly as others, which can be scoped and laser sighted. Not sure why maybe it’s by design.

Like I said I am not a stats guy but I observe this everyday. I will tag a mob with my ML-35ME and get successive 100+hits more often when I am scoped into it than when I am not (the damage tends to be ~70-90 un zoomed). It also depend on what part of the mob I am hitting to me it seems each mob has its critical area and part of hunting effectively is learning those spots.

There could also be an effective range for scopes and lasers since they are all not created equal but that information is either hidden by MA or not designed into them.

I guess I have shot so many firearms in RL I tend to think of it in RL terms. Some scopes and lasers enhance a firearm while others are pointless. Scoping a shotgun is pretty much pointless while scoping a long-range rifle increases its effectiveness and deadliness. Pistols well they seem to do better with lasers but I see people scope them too but they are usually distance target shooters. If I scope a rifle its so I can increase my chances to inflict maximum damage at maximum distance on whatever I am shooting at.

Its food for thought but like most things in EU very hard to prove. Maybe MA will drop us more hints in the future.
 
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I have noticted that if i (as a mid lvl player) go hunt BIG mob's (in team), as Atrox stalkers, prowler and spiders i get more green lines. When i go "ecohunting" on low lvl mobs as exo i seem to get fewer gren lines.

Maybe take that in to calc?

Thats my 2 pec.

And.. +Rep to Recoda for bringing this to uor attention
 

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i'm glad to see someone say in writing what i'd been thinking.
and thinking im a bit crazy for thinking it ;)

i experienced this with argo's
was skilling pistol on them with the korrs 380 and a 103 amp so i could max out the 400, and was doing really well..breaking even or profiting a bit on the iron markup.

I was doing so well that once i maxed the korrs 400 i figured i'd keep at them as the higher damage/sec would lead to less decay on armor and fap and even better return.
except it didnt..
at the time i decided to blame the high markup on the korrs 400 which isnt "seen" by the system when calculating what to return to me.
or a personal bad loot period.
but maybe,maybe its what you think you noticed.

but then again,i'm a noob so what do i know ;)
I don't think we've established any basis for assuming different levels of misses on a maxed SIB weapon. At current market prices, the 400 with a103 is 3.4% less efficient than the 380 with a103, so that could indeed be your reason. Loot varies a lot, too.

We really shouldn't be using return rate as data because it is so variable and subjective. Short of counting misses and hits with a weapon, there's not many ways to make a contribution to this issue.

jdegre, m2100 with 1 PED ammo in an abandoned octagon, with both players counting misses, would be a great test. Then mann mph with 1 PED ammo and no attachments, then with a full 2xsight + scope setup. A final test with someone like mjukis who has such a high HA that the skill mod would put them up to 10 HA would be perfect. To see if there's anything to sirhc's beliefs, the "victim" could record damage received during the test, and do one while sighting through the scope vs. not.

If misses happen in the first test, it should probably be repeated. The rest would ideally be repeated a few times to get a standard error. Depending on the results, repeating some of the tests on another avatar with much higher (or lower) Dodger standing would be interesting.

I'll do it when i get time to login if nobody else does first.
 
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