The efficiency of scopes/lasers

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Recoda

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I've been doing some researches on the effects of using skillmod attachments today. I can't believe I've never done this before, as it seems that you may loose quite a lot of PEDs if you don't use these attachments correctly. These tests were made using 1000 shoots each. The first test was without any attachments at all, to determine my standard efficiency. Second test was with broken attachments, here are the results.

Bjornir, 100%. Abrer, 22%. Abrer, 22%.
Total Skillmodification: 30%
Total decrease in missrate: -8,75%
Total increase in hitrate: - 2%

Bjornir, 100%. Abrer, 58%. Abrer, 58%.
Total Skillmodification: 30%
Total decrease in missrate: 5%
Total increase in hitrate: 0,9%

Bjornir, 100%. Abrer, 100%. Abrer, 100%.
Total Skillmodification: 30%
Total decrease in missrate: 8,8%
Total increase in hitrate: 1,5%

Bjornir, 100%. Gargul, 100%. Gargul, 100%.
Total Skillmodification: 48%
Total decrease in missrate: 16%
Total increase in hitrate: 2,6%

As you can see, a broken attachment will decrease your hitrate. You hitrate will be lower with a broken attachment than without any attachments at all!

These tests were done with a Strikehammer (BLP, Rifle). My skills are relatively low on BLP weapons, so I guess the difference would be more significant if I were to use a laser handgun. I may do a couple of other tests later using a handgun, but from now, it appears as if the Modification influences the Hit Ability on the weapon. This basically means that a 4.0 Hit Ability would be increased to 5.92 using a pair of Garguls and a Bjornir. A 6.0 Hit Ability on the other hand would increase to 8.9 Hit Ability. I also noticed a considerable effect on the Critical Hits, they increased a huge deal using skillmod attachments.

Test with SIB-Weapon:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=670247&postcount=64
Doesn't appear that lasers increases the efficiency of already maxed weapons.
 
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Zetanian

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Awesome data. Im pretty stunned of the implication that broken attachements decrease your hit-abilty.
 

Recoda

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Awesome data. Im pretty stunned of the implication that broken attachements decrease your hit-abilty.
Yeah, tell me about it... I've used broken attachments for years, I guess that has lost me a whole lot of money. I always thought it was better to keep the TT Value as low as possible, because that'd give me a higher markup when I were to sell them.
 

F1r3

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sure it isnt a laggy period or something?:\
 

Az Bloodz

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yep there can be much more factors...
 

Recoda

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Yep, it's possible that other factors affected the result. Although, I'm rather sure that the hitrate is decreased by lower TT lasersights. As I did several tests on that one.

I'm going to try to get my handgun back from a friend and do a long run later though, to see if it really increases the Hit Ability in the way I think it does.
 

F1r3

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Yep, it's possible that other factors affected the result. Although, I'm rather sure that the hitrate is decreased by lower TT lasersights. As I did several tests on that one.

I'm going to try to get my handgun back from a friend and do a long run later though, to see if it really increases the Hit Ability in the way I think it does.
all my attachments are always 100%, but sometimes i miss alot, sometimes i dont notice much misses, depends on the time i'm logged in (7-8 in the evening is always laggy :\)
 

Recoda

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all my attachments are always 100%, but sometimes i miss alot, sometimes i dont notice much misses, depends on the time i'm logged in (7-8 in the evening is always laggy :\)
I shoot from point blank range and waited a few seconds on every mob, didn't move the sight during the kill. So there shouldn't be that many errors due to lag.

I think it makes sense though, in real life, a broken lasersight wouldn't help you at all. It'd just confuse you...
 

Vedder

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Good job, Recoda.

More test data would be useful though... Weird things happens in EU sometimes, and weird 'cycles' seems to a part of the dynamic EU.

But very interesting. Thx for sharing. (+rep)
 

demoniac

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Very interesting. Every test I have seen done on this before failed to show any measurable difference whatsoever.
 

F1r3

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I shoot from point blank range and waited a few seconds on every mob, didn't move the sight during the kill. So there shouldn't be that many errors due to lag.

I think it makes sense though, in real life, a broken lasersight wouldn't help you at all. It'd just confuse you...
im not trying to prove you wrong or anything, just saying what my experiences are with scopes & lasers

for instance, i try to shoot a mob before it reaches me just because i seem to miss more at point blank range :p
if i do find a "good" point to shoot at i too try to stay with that point and not move anymore but i could have missed a couple of shots already before finding it

also, you shouldn't compare to real life:p
axes dont break if you kill a couple of cows with it? :silly2:
 

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I said it before and I say it again.. I stopped using both over a year ago, as I just couldn't see any gain in having them.
 

Recoda

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These tests were done with 1000 shoots in total. I think I'm going to try to do at least 10,000 shoots later on to get more accurate results.

I said it before and I say it again.. I stopped using both over a year ago, as I just couldn't see any gain in having them.
Did you read my post?
 

andyzammy

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some people think that if you use these attachments, that you will gain skills at the rate of your modifier skills

eg, u have 5000 aim, using the scope and lasers gives you a 10% mod, so when you shoot, you shoot as if you have 5500 aim. so i'd actually gain skills slower with the mod than i would without the mod. have you been able to determine if thats true or not? for a skilling run i want to know what setup to use
 

Recoda

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some people think that if you use these attachments, that you will gain skills at the rate of your modifier skills

eg, u have 5000 aim, using the scope and lasers gives you a 10% mod, so when you shoot, you shoot as if you have 5500 aim. so i'd actually gain skills slower with the mod than i would without the mod. have you been able to determine if thats true or not? for a skilling run i want to know what setup to use
I wouldn't be surprised if that was true, but it shouldn't be that hard to see if it really works like that. I'll take a look at that later. I guess there's some kind of a cap though, I'd be surprised if the skillmod attachments did anything at all if you already were at 10 in hit ability.
 

Mikass

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very interesting

I`ve stopped using them a while a go cos I didn`t notice any difference, even missed more(was using low tt).Neither I or my soc mates use them cos HA seemed to be decreased, but we were using low tt. Think you might be on to something here.
 

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any chance you could do a test run with a weapon you're maxed at?
 

Doer

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This is a potentially huge find, but i'm wondering why previous studies didn't notice it. Would you please explain how you tested, exactly, and how you generated your numbers? I have worn down my two SE600s (12% mod) and my 2500RS (7% mod) = 31% total modification to almost breaking since i bought them and would like to repeat the test before and after repairing them.
 

Recoda

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This is a potentially huge find, but i'm wondering why previous studies didn't notice it. Would you please explain how you tested, exactly, and how you generated your numbers? I have worn down my two SE600s (12% mod) and my 2500RS (7% mod) to almost breaking since i bought them and would like to repeat the test before and after repairing them.
It would take a whole lot of time to calculate all this on papers, so I created a small application that would register every press on the "1" key. That's the key I use to fire my weapon. I would then setup the "Shift" key to register misses, so I pressed "Shift" every time the weapon missed a shoot, and the program registered it all. In the end, I would know that I had fired 1000 shoots and missed x shoots. That means that I also know my hitrate for that hunt.

If my missrate without any attachments is 14%, And my missrate with fully repaired attachments is 13%. That would then mean that I miss 1% less, but my missrate has been decreased with 7%.

I haven't ever seen any studies on this though?

any chance you could do a test run with a weapon you're maxed at?
Yep, I think I'll give that a try later on.
 
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Jimmy B

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Very, very interesting.

I have to say this isn't how I thought sights and scopes worked at all. But the results show a nice consistent pattern which is a good sign.

Much +rep, and I'm gonna spread a load round so I can rep some more if you do more tests :D

It would be interesting to know the effect on a maxed out weapon if any too. Seems according to the HA modification theory there wouldn't be any but I've always felt it helps.

So I'm sitting here congratulating myself on always having mine fully repaired and yet cursing myself at the possibility that I've been wasting decay all this time by putting them on maxed out weapons all the time :laugh:

If my missrate without any attachments is 14%, And my missrate with fully repaired attachments is 13%. That would then mean that I miss 1% less, but my hitrate has been increased with 7%
Well no, your hitting shots have been increased from 86% to 87% so thats about 1.16% increase in hit rate. Your miss rate has been reduced by 7.1%.
 
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Doer

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It would take a whole lot of time to calculate all this on papers, so I created a small application that would register every press on the "1" key. That's the key I use to fire my weapon. I would then setup the "Shift" key to register misses, so I pressed "Shift" every time the weapon missed a shoot, and the program registered it all. In the end, I would know that I had fired 1000 shoots and missed x shoots. That means that I also know my hitrate for that hunt.

If my hitrate without any attachments is 14%, And my hitrate with fully repaired attachments is 13%. That would then mean that I miss 1% less, but my hitrate has been increased with 7%.

I haven't ever seen any studies on this though?
I've seen a couple less rigorous ones posted before.

Have you tried to correlate the change in hitrate to something so that these numbers make sense? I mean, if you use the 80%-92% range in hitrate for HA 0-10 and calculate your modified HA with the two different lasers, does the difference in hitrate come out proportional? You didn't tell your current base HA so i can't calculate this myself. If your predicted change in hitrate due to the skill mod % on HA is indeed what you observed, it would be a powerful support for your conclusions.

I was also wondering: do you know the actual decay of a gargul?
 

JulzD

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I have a low TT arber laser sight (worth around 20 PED TT).

Just wondering if my sights low TT makes it worse than no laser or better with laser, and if it makes it worse, how much does it need to be repaired?
 

Recoda

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I've seen a couple less rigorous ones posted before.

Have you tried to correlate the change in hitrate to something so that these numbers make sense? I mean, if you use the 80%-92% range in hitrate for HA 0-10 and calculate your modified HA with the two different lasers, does the difference in hitrate come out proportional? You didn't tell your current base HA so i can't calculate this myself. If your predicted change in hitrate due to the skill mod % on HA is indeed what you observed, it would be a powerful support for your conclusions.

I was also wondering: do you know the actual decay of a gargul?
I did do some calculations according to the 8/20% theory. That theory says that an Avatar with 0 in Hit Ability should miss 20%, while an Avatar with 10 in Hit Ability should miss around 8%. I calculated my Hit Ability with the increase of 30%, that gave me two figures. One hitrate for my old Hit Ability, and one hitrate for my new modified one. The decrease in misses should have been 8,6%. My calculated decrease with the 30% Skillmodification combination was as you can see 8,8%. So the result does look pretty promising.

And, yes. I'm ashamed of my Rifle, BLP hit ability. ;)

I have a low TT arber laser sight (worth around 20 PED TT).

Just wondering if my sights low TT makes it worse than no laser or better with laser, and if it makes it worse, how much does it need to be repaired?
A lasersight would become effective at around 50% of its maximum TT according to my tests. At least the Abrersight. A lasersight with less then 50% of its maximum TT value decreases the hitrate. So, yes. You're better off without any lasersights then.

Yes I did. And since I have been a Sweeper user for a while I cant use them anyways..
Ahh, that explains it.
 
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Doer

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I did do some calculations according to the 8/20% theory. That theory says that an Avatar with 0 in Hit Ability should miss 20%, while an Avatar with 10 in Hit Ability should miss around 8%. I calculated my Hit Ability with the increase of 30%, that gave me two figures. One hitrate for my old Hit Ability, and one hitrate for my new modified one. The increase should have been 8,6%. My calculated increase with the 30% Skillmodification combination was as you can see 8,8%. So the result does look pretty promising.

And, yes. I'm ashamed of my Rifle, BLP hit ability. ;)
Wow, that's awesome! What about the gargul setup? Does it match the predicted hitrate?
 

Recoda

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Wow, that's awesome! What about the gargul setup? Does it match the predicted hitrate?
The gargulsetup missed with around 1% or so. (on missrate, not hitrate)

I think I may have to do a test on 10,000 shoots on each setup to avoid these small errors though. So I guess we can't be 100% sure until then, but it's not far away, so I suppose it could still be right.
 
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Richard Devil

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hey u doing a great job :)

+rep
 

Recoda

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Well no, your hitting shots have been increased from 86% to 87% so thats about 1.16% increase in hit rate. Your miss rate has been reduced by 7.1%.
Ah, yes. That's true. I meant that the hit rate had been reduced, and not the other way around. I guess that happens when you're awake at 4am in the morning. Thanks for the correction.

I just updated the main post and most of the others. Seems like I had the wrong choice of word for a while there. Also updated the main post with the real increase in the hitrate.

I thought I'd also mention that the increase in hitrate should have been 1,496% for the 30% Skillmod. The one calculated with the skillmodification was 1,5%.
And for the Gargul, 2,38% instead of 2,6%. Not far off, we'll see how this goes after a few longer testruns.
 
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Doer

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I did some calculatin' to see the repercussions should this prove to be true.

To see how the attachments that give skill modification bonus would affect weapon economy, both the extra decay from the attachments and the higher hitrate must be considered. Low ammo burn weapons have a higher % increase in decay with scopes and sights, so there must be a crossover point in both HA and weapon burn where attachments become useful. Assuming the 80-92% hitrate for real and effective HAs of 0-10 as you are theorizing, here are some numbers for a couple common unlimited weapons, one low-burn and one high-burn using two differently decaying (but almost identical in skill mod) scope and sight setups.

Old: 2xSE600 + 2500RS decay: 0.090 pecs (Old system scope&sight, total mod=31%)
New: 2xAbrer + Bjornir decay: 0.131 (New scope&sight, total mod=30%)

Cost per shot of mk2+a104:
w/ old scope/sight: 13.59 pecs
w/ new scope/sight: 13.631 pecs

Economy improvement due to attachments:
Code:
HA   [b]mk2+a104[/b] (57 dmg) [b]bravo+a104[/b] (113 dmg)
      old [%] new [%]  old [%] new [%]
1.0  [color=red]-0.2     -0.5  [/color]   0.1     [color=red]-0.0[/color]
2.0   0.2     [color=red]-0.1[/color]     0.6      0.4
3.0   0.7      0.4     1.0      0.8
4.0   1.1      0.8     1.4      1.3
5.0   1.5      1.2     1.8      1.7
6.0   1.9      1.6     2.2      2.1
7.0   2.3      2.0     2.6      2.4
This assumes that the improvement is linear up to 10.0 effective HA (which is reached shortly after 7.0 real HA with 30% mod).

So it seems that pretty significant economy gains can be had with sights and scopes if they really work as your study suggests, but not for complete noobs. It actually reduces the overall economy slightly for HA < ~2 for the amped mk2.

These are just predictions based on Recoda's tests and are not definitive. In other words, they are just predictions.
 
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Doer

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I thought I'd also mention that the increase in hitrate should have been 1,496% for the 30% Skillmod. The one calculated with the skillmodification was 1,5%.
And for the Gargul, 2,38% instead of 2,6%. Not far off, we'll see how this goes after a few longer testruns.
I'd say that's a pretty damn good match considering the whole 80-92% rule is just an estimate, anyway!

:woot:

Jimmy, i took a look at the effects of scoping a maxed SIB weapon with avg dmg/pec of 3.0. If (big if) the hitrate continues to improve beyond 10.0 effective HA, a maxed weapon with the bjornir+2xabrer setup will have just 4.4% misses and need only do 13 dmg to start to see an improvement in economy over the cost of the attachment decay -- a figure which really surprises me! In those circumstances a breer m2a+a102 sees about a 2% increase in economy.

The maximum total skill modification is 61% according to wiki. That would give a hitrate of 0.993 with 10.0 HA, eerily near to 100%. Coincidence?
 
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