The semantics of SIB

[Dark Cat]

Hit an embarrasing situation the other day when a disciple asked me the specifics of SIB, and I wasn't able to answer.

We all know that SIB speeds up the skill increase as an incentive to the newer players to overcome recent nerf's, but I was asked what it specifically does, and I had to admit I didn't know...

If u are using for example a gun with SIB, does it therby increase EVERY skill that u gain while using it, or every skill gained from firing it, or just more specific skills such as rifle?

Deeper than that, what about when damage is maxed but hit isn't? Because several of those skills are in both categories..so does that mean it increases twice as fast if u get a gain in that particular skill when both have SIB, and only increases at normal rate when just one still has SIB, or does the increase take place at the same rate regardless of one half being maxed?

Need to know this for future reference.

 

[levithanikos]

Hit an embarrasing situation the other day when a disciple asked me the specifics of SIB, and I wasn't able to answer.

We all know that SIB speeds up the skill increase as an incentive to the newer players to overcome recent nerf's, but I was asked what it specifically does, and I had to admit I didn't know...

If u are using for example a gun with SIB, does it therby increase EVERY skill that u gain while using it, or every skill gained from firing it, or just more specific skills such as rifle?

Deeper than that, what about when damage is maxed but hit isn't? Because several of those skills are in both categories..so does that mean it increases twice as fast if u get a gain in that particular skill when both have SIB, and only increases at normal rate when just one still has SIB, or does the increase take place at the same rate regardless of one half being maxed?

Need to know this for future reference.

Hello .. very nice question ... but for sure i don't think there is an answer from MA on how these things work .... cause " EU is Dynamic"

IMHO it just gives more skill value in any skillgain compared to non SIB tools , not just increased number of skillgains.

For example.. You have 100 Points of Rifle . Using a NON SIB , every skillgain gives you 1 full point , for the X mob you kill.

WITH SIB , gives you let's say 1.25 points for the same mob.

This is only my theory nothing more..

+rep for the nice Thread

 

[Ozi]

It's a very good point you make Dark Cat. I have played around with the SIB guns and seriously have my doubts as to the benfit of SIB.

As with most things in EU, MA do not give any indication as to what the SIB is doing - my theory is that it may increase the amount of skill gained with each skill gain you see in the chat window. I "assume" this only applies to the hit and damage skills - not evade etc.

I, like you would be keen to see if anyone has any further info or has done more testing to see if increases are greater with SIB.

 

[EarlVonKippler]

i never thought it meant that the amount of skill i gained increased, but never thought to ask either way.

i thought it meant the skill i had was given a bonus and i was able to hit more often and harder. since non-sib weapons suck for me (3.7) and i have much better hit rates with the sib guns. (10/10)

 

[Mcalhoun333]

While I have not seen any empirical evidence, one of my soc mates noticed that he gets more exp in the skill bar per skill gain message with an SIB weapon. Off-topic, yet related, he has also concluded that he gains more skills with an amped weapon than an unamped weapon. Though a word of caution, "EU is dynamic."

 

[Ozi]

While I have not seen any empirical evidence, one of my soc mates noticed that he gets more exp in the skill bar per skill gain message with an SIB weapon. Off-topic, yet related, he has also concluded that he gains more skills with an amped weapon than an unamped weapon. Though a word of caution, "EU is dynamic."

I have noticed I get faster skill gains wheni use a gun that is burning more ammo - so adding an amp will help that. I tested it on a few disciples - the fastest to graduate was a disciple who hunted solely with a Katshuchi Valor - no SIB but big decay - I was astounded at how fast he reached graduation.

 

[Rafzon]

I never noticed a big difference in skill gains with sib vs non-sib. What i did notice however is a difference in damage per shot.

ex. and numbers are generic, not accurate at all just an example
also, this will be average damage (not minimum or max)

handgun, non sib 2.0/10 ha, and damage 4 rounds per shot, .05 pec decay per shot - 7 points damage average 2 missed shots out of 10

handgun, sib 10/10 ha, and damage, 3 rounds per shot 1 pec decay - 11 points damage 1 missed shot out of 10

again, all just numbers to give a general idea but you get the idea. I could be off, but this is just something i have noticed, but havent noticed any big skill gains

 

[Coop_]

Hit an embarrasing situation the other day when a disciple asked me the specifics of SIB, and I wasn't able to answer.

We all know that SIB speeds up the skill increase as an incentive to the newer players to overcome recent nerf's, but I was asked what it specifically does, and I had to admit I didn't know...

If u are using for example a gun with SIB, does it therby increase EVERY skill that u gain while using it, or every skill gained from firing it, or just more specific skills such as rifle?

Deeper than that, what about when damage is maxed but hit isn't? Because several of those skills are in both categories..so does that mean it increases twice as fast if u get a gain in that particular skill when both have SIB, and only increases at normal rate when just one still has SIB, or does the increase take place at the same rate regardless of one half being maxed?

Need to know this for future reference.

Good timing, as I have just been doing tests comparing skillgains with SIB and maxed items, using NRF to record gains.

What I have found so far is that SIB seems to increase both the frequency and average amount of skillgains. It does this for all the skills associated with the given profession, so that overall gains from a profession come in the same proportion as that skill contributes to the profession (see sticky thread in skills forum).

When using a weapon, you are actually skilling two professions, Hit and Damage. With each use of the weapon, each profession has some chance to give a green message, and each green message has some chance of being in each of the skills of the profession, and some chance of being the "base amount" or gain for that skill, or a "multiple gain" (2x, 3x, 4x, or 5x the base amount). While SIB does not increase the base amount (of this I am certain) it does seem to increase the chance of getting higher multiple gains--so that the average gain amount increases.

If your disciple has Damage SIB but not Hit anymore, then gains that come from the Damage profession will be "goosed" but those that come from the Hit profession will not.

Oh, and my preliminary tests suggest that the SIB gives about a 20% increase in the frequency and average amount of gains. I still need to retest this with 1000 uses of a weapon I just maxed. (Maybe some crafter would like to sell me 100 ped of Force Mace Assail at a good price )

 

[Larethania]

Oh, and my preliminary tests suggest that the SIB gives about a 20% increase in the frequency and average amount of gains. QUOTE]

in other words SIB helps boost the 2 Hit and Dmg for either Laser or Blp depending on what the gun is..

coop gave a real nice and a little complicated answer =) hehe but what i have seen of the peeps here on ef forum i don think im near the average brain capacity what exists here

 

[kygon]

IMHO it just gives more skill value in any skillgain compared to non SIB tools , not just increased number of skillgains.

For example.. You have 100 Points of Rifle . Using a NON SIB , every skillgain gives you 1 full point , for the X mob you kill.

WITH SIB , gives you let's say 1.25 points for the same mob.

This is only my theory nothing more..

+rep for the nice Thread

I did some testing, I'm still in the process of turning about 300 screen shots into an excell spreadsheet for analysis but its looking like

SIB gains are often no greater than standard gains BUT you often get almost 2x the gain using SIB

I get say 20 pixels gain on non SIB fap and the max I've gotten from SIB is 40 pixels in all the screens Ive taken (every medical skill gain in over 1 month) I've never seen a non SIB fap give more than 25 pixles

I'm gonna post my results after I finish moving house

 

[KP708]

Oh, and my preliminary tests suggest that the SIB gives about a 20% increase in the frequency and average amount of gains.

Sorry for being pedantic here coop, but I just want to clarify.

Are you saying you saw a 20% increase in frequency and a 20% increase in the average gain per event? So 44% increase in skill gain overall.

Or a 20% increase in skill gains, partly due to increased frequency and partly increased average gain per event?

Was this for the same weapon, comparing before and after having maxed it? Or comparing 2 equivalent weapons, one SIB, one non-SIB (eg force mace assail and thorifoid battle club, alternating every 200 strikes or something - a nice pair, since decay and damage is identical).

I'm totally confident you would be testing it properly, but I'm wondering if there is a difference in skill gains between a maxed mace assail and a thorifoid club, or if a maxed SIB is no different to a non-SIB (in skill gains of course - in terms of hits and damage, it would be a different story).

Thanks for reporting the results of your experiments

 

[Svarog]

IMHO it just gives more skill value in any skillgain compared to non SIB tools , not just increased number of skillgains.

I don't know about how the values differs in the SIB and non-SIB skillgains, but my experience tell me that you get way more skillgains with a SIB weapon. Possibly the values of sib-skillgains is greater too, but it's harder to prove and I didn't test that.

 

[Coop_]

coop gave a real nice and a little complicated answer =) hehe but what i have seen of the peeps here on ef forum i don think im near the average brain capacity what exists here

Your ava picture would suggest not

 

[Coop_]

Sorry for being pedantic here coop, but I just want to clarify.

Are you saying you saw a 20% increase in frequency and a 20% increase in the average gain per event? So 44% increase in skill gain overall.

Or a 20% increase in skill gains, partly due to increased frequency and partly increased average gain per event?

Was this for the same weapon, comparing before and after having maxed it? Or comparing 2 equivalent weapons, one SIB, one non-SIB (eg force mace assail and thorifoid battle club, alternating every 200 strikes or something - a nice pair, since decay and damage is identical).

I'm totally confident you would be testing it properly, but I'm wondering if there is a difference in skill gains between a maxed mace assail and a thorifoid club, or if a maxed SIB is no different to a non-SIB (in skill gains of course - in terms of hits and damage, it would be a different story).

Thanks for reporting the results of your experiments

Never pedantic to seek the truth

20% increased average skillgain, total skillgain (tt value) increased 36%. But this was not a perfect test, since I was comparing 1000 swings with a Force Mace Assail with Hit SIB to my unL Masher 1 with no SIB. So amount of decay, and/or damage done could significanly affect skillgains. Thats why I next want to test 1000 swings with now-maxed Assail. I have little interest in completely throwing away ped to test a thorifoid club.

So really the only thing I'm sure of at this point is that the "base amount" of skillgain does not change with weapon or SIB, and that the number of gains and % of multiple gains does change with weapon or SIB (not sure which at this point).

Lots of tants are gonna have to die still

 

[levithanikos]

I did some testing, I'm still in the process of turning about 300 screen shots into an excell spreadsheet for analysis but its looking like

SIB gains are often no greater than standard gains BUT you often get almost 2x the gain using SIB

I get say 20 pixels gain on non SIB fap and the max I've gotten from SIB is 40 pixels in all the screens Ive taken (every medical skill gain in over 1 month) I've never seen a non SIB fap give more than 25 pixles

I'm gonna post my results after I finish moving house

I can't wait to see your Thread m8 ... must be very interesting!

 

[Coop_]

I did some testing, I'm still in the process of turning about 300 screen shots into an excell spreadsheet for analysis but its looking like

SIB gains are often no greater than standard gains BUT you often get almost 2x the gain using SIB

I get say 20 pixels gain on non SIB fap and the max I've gotten from SIB is 40 pixels in all the screens Ive taken (every medical skill gain in over 1 month) I've never seen a non SIB fap give more than 25 pixles

I'm gonna post my results after I finish moving house

Are you using NRF to analyze the screenies? It is so easy to install and use.

 

[kygon]

Are you using NRF to analyze the screenies? It is so easy to install and use.

I did try using it but didnt like my setup at work (dual screen) will try again tho just been using plan old excel and a cool little virtual ruler to measure the pixel gains

 

[Coop_]

I did try using it but didnt like my setup at work (dual screen) will try again tho just been using plan old excel and a cool little virtual ruler to measure the pixel gains

Did you try it running EU in windowed mode? Might be able to find the info then.

 

[Solaris]

Great work boys and girls!
Keep up the testing - we are many people watching this thread with a ton of interest!!

This should have been done looong ago, but the difficulty involved is tremendous. Big reps and cheers to all involved in the "test that will crack the SIB"

 

[Wollongong]

I have recently maxed out on a number of tools (mining mostly): I only noticed that I get fewer "green lines" when out of SIB.

My 1/2nd pec (yeah, not 2 pec, a half)

 

[Cougar]

Humm.. i intended to post here before but i forgot.

To me the most clarifying definition comes from MA themselves.

If you read the VU Content list of VU 7.6 (when items with SIB were introduced), you will see:

Learning bonus
All new items and all mining equipment have a learning bonus. This means that you need a certain minimum skill level in order to use the item to the full effect. When this minimum skill level is reached, you will receive an experience bonus that will be active until you are considered to master the item. After mastering the item your experience gain will return to normal.

Old items, excluding mining equipment, are not changed.

Specially this part:

"When this minimum skill level is reached, you will receive an experience bonus that will be active until you are considered to master the item. After mastering the item your experience gain will return to normal."



Old stuff from MA makes good reading (and learning) material