The true meaning of perception

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aridash

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Do a test with like 300m instead.. but ye a lot more ground to cover heh.

but then how much is down to luck? 300m is a huge area, as discussed that can be literally 3digit number of mobs, or ~24 bomb/probe points (very rough esimate based on filling 300m circle, sure theres a proper way to calculate number of 50m covered). perc = somthing within 300m is no better than random imo.
 

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2? :scratch2: Noodle's test had 7 hunts, mine had over 12, involving 4 guns. But if that math works for you, that's fine. (Or were you thinking of a different test I did? I was talking about my weapon/loot test.)

Like I admitted, I'm just fanning the flames. (Bored I guess :silly2:)

Still, Noodle's test was interesting, but it lacked the one detail that really matters to me:

Did doing the Perc actions help improve overall profit margin?

I wouldn't care if it was 100% success rate, if it was unprofitable.

Fan away, a good way to learn. Your 4 gun test does need more data points than this test does, since the returns from each gun are more similar than the results of this test. If my data had shown an 80% success rate, then the 42 points is probably not enough to distinguish it from the 90% claim.

Returns: I have decent tt return data from six of the seven hunts. Includes all decays (armor, fap, guns, amps, ...):

Hunt 1: 175 spent, 155 return (this one used the 101 amps, and I must have done some extra drops too)
Hunt 2: 142 spent, 132 return
Hunt 3: 145 spent, 104 return
Hunt 4: 152 spent, 106 return
Hunt 5: 151 spent, 216 return
Hunt 7: 154 spent, 140 return

Total: 919 spent, 853 return (92-93% tt return)

Hunt 6 was a pretty nasty loss, but I did some other activities that are included in my spreadsheet data, so throwing it out.

All in all, seems pretty normal to me. Then again, I would have killed all of the mobs anyway, so the only difference really is the points where I chose to drop bombs and probes.

I'll post the isolated mining results from runs 2-5 and 7 in a bit.
 

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All in all, seems pretty normal to me. Then again, I would have killed all of the mobs anyway, so the only difference really is the points where I chose to drop bombs and probes.

I think this is the most important aspcet of this theory to consider...
 

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mining returns

Hunt 2: 6.5 spent, 4.4 return
Hunt 3: 8 spent, 8.9 return
Hunt 4: 9 spent, 5 return
Hunt 5: 7 spent, 15.7 return (hehe, only 1 claim)
Hunt 7: 13 spent, 2.5 return

Total: 43.5 spent, 36.5 return (84% tt return)

A bit below average, but within normal fluctuations after dropping less than 50 peds.

I should add that these tt returns are from a taxed land, so 3-4% on top of what is listed is the actual tt return (assuming taxes work by taking from the hunter/miner and giving to the land owner).
 

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2? :scratch2: Noodle's test had 7 hunts, mine had over 12, involving 4 guns. But if that math works for you, that's fine. (Or were you thinking of a different test I did? I was talking about my weapon/loot test.)

Like I admitted, I'm just fanning the flames. (Bored I guess :silly2:)

Still, Noodle's test was interesting, but it lacked the one detail that really matters to me:

Did doing the Perc actions help improve overall profit margin?

I wouldn't care if it was 100% success rate, if it was unprofitable.

It all depends on what you are testing. You should not count the number of hunts, but the number of experiments performed. And also consider deviation and expected value. For testing the overall profit margin, you will indeed need to do many more runs, as one run would be just one experiment. So indeed, perc can still result in higher return. But we know it very likely does not result in more finds/high loots.
 

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As per post 326 I have completed some initial testing - dexterity vs perception. It's not a huge test, but for those who will say "Oh you should do a bigger test", perception gains account for a very small %age of hunting skill gains and it ain't easy finding them! Anyway...

Method

I waited until I got a dexterity or a perception gain on a hunt. I then finished killing that mob, and without moving dropped a bomb and a probe in that order.

I then killed every mob in the small radar (if any) AND the next nearest two mobs.

Any tests where I died, or someone killed the nearby mobs before I could, or one of the mobs was too tough for me, or where I gained a perc gain before the end of a dexterity test (or vice versa) were declared void.

Results were gathered over several hunts on several days. Some dexterity gains were not followed up as there were approx twice as many dexterity gains as perception ones and I didn't want to follow them all up.

Results

After perception gains, 8 out of 17 bombs hit, and 8 out of 17 probes hit. (They did not hit in tandem, it was random).

After dexterity gains, 0 out of 14 bombs hit, and 4 out of 14 probes hit.

After perception gains, 3 out of 17 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After perception gains, 6 out of 17 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways. (Obviously Spawn didn't say it worked with Dexterity gains but you get the idea of what I am saying!)

My Conclusion

I think that perception gains do let you know about ore and enmatter in the ground directly below you. Whether that information is worth knowing is open for discussion.

I also think that perception gains appear when you can see somebody exactly on the inside edge of your large radar, and perhaps on the outside of it to.

I don't think perception gains have much to do with telling you about future mob loots or future items in loot. But I do think that perception gains do tell us something else - a third thing - maybe that there is ore or enmatter somewhere near you. Or perhaps some perception gains are purposely given to us as red herrings. There could also be a timer as previously discussed on this thread, and this could be set to something like 120 seconds (that is a total guess so pls don't bother asking questions on that).

Forrest :)

PS I did rebomb/reprobe when I got a hit but the percentage hit rates from that after both perc and dext were so small that I would not recommend it. (Something like 4 out of 20 hit).
 

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Results

After perception gains, 8 out of 17 bombs hit, and 8 out of 17 probes hit. (They did not hit in tandem, it was random).

After dexterity gains, 0 out of 14 bombs hit, and 4 out of 14 probes hit.

After perception gains, 3 out of 17 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After perception gains, 6 out of 17 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways. (Obviously Spawn didn't say it worked with Dexterity gains but you get the idea of what I am saying!)

Nice complementary test. One question...how is it that 8/17 bombs hit (and 8/17 probes), yet only 6/17 times was Spawn's idea proven correct? Is not a bomb or probe hit an automatic success?
 

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To follow up post 366, in terms of the mining:

I did profit in TT value by 1 ped after perception gains and made a horrible loss after dexterity gains. But I think that was lucky.

I am continuing to test this. PM me in about 3 months if you really give a toss and I can let you know what happened. :)

To follow up post 367, when I made a TT loss on the mining I called Spawn's theory "a failure" in that instance. e.g. the bomb returned 1.49 ped in ore and the probe missed. Not a disaster by any means but technically a "failure" in terms of TT profit as I lost 1 pec (not counting decay). I didn't use any amps.

If the bomb missed and the probe returned 1.51 ped, I called that a success.
 
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JohnCapital

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Hunt 2: 6.5 spent, 4.4 return
Hunt 3: 8 spent, 8.9 return
Hunt 4: 9 spent, 5 return
Hunt 5: 7 spent, 15.7 return (hehe, only 1 claim)
Hunt 7: 13 spent, 2.5 return

Total: 43.5 spent, 36.5 return (84% tt return)

A bit below average, but within normal fluctuations after dropping less than 50 peds.

I should add that these tt returns are from a taxed land, so 3-4% on top of what is listed is the actual tt return (assuming taxes work by taking from the hunter/miner and giving to the land owner).

Thanks much Noodles. That's what I was hoping (and expected) to see. :) (and yes, you are right about how tax works. Loot is lowered to give owner his peds.)

I've never been fully convinced about perc gains or skills gains hunting/mining, however, I have been party to a few bizarre (and profitable) cases (as mentioned previously). I was mostly curious about how much this method affected the bottom line.
 

JohnCapital

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Ah cool thanks, ForrestPark, for your tests too. And thanks for adding the profit/loss info. :)
 

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As per post 326 I have completed some initial testing - dexterity vs perception. It's not a huge test, but for those who will say "Oh you should do a bigger test", perception gains account for a very small %age of hunting skill gains and it ain't easy finding them! Anyway...

Method

I waited until I got a dexterity or a perception gain on a hunt. I then finished killing that mob, and without moving dropped a bomb and a probe in that order.

I then killed every mob in the small radar (if any) AND the next nearest two mobs.

Any tests where I died, or someone killed the nearby mobs before I could, or one of the mobs was too tough for me, or where I gained a perc gain before the end of a dexterity test (or vice versa) were declared void.

Results were gathered over several hunts on several days. Some dexterity gains were not followed up as there were approx twice as many dexterity gains as perception ones and I didn't want to follow them all up.

Results

After perception gains, 8 out of 17 bombs hit, and 8 out of 17 probes hit. (They did not hit in tandem, it was random).

After dexterity gains, 0 out of 14 bombs hit, and 4 out of 14 probes hit.

After perception gains, 3 out of 17 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times I got a "good loot" on a nearby mob.

After perception gains, 6 out of 17 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways.

After dexterity gains, 2 out of 14 times Spawn's theory was proved correct in one or both ways. (Obviously Spawn didn't say it worked with Dexterity gains but you get the idea of what I am saying!)

My Conclusion

I think that perception gains do let you know about ore and enmatter in the ground directly below you. Whether that information is worth knowing is open for discussion.

I also think that perception gains appear when you can see somebody exactly on the inside edge of your large radar, and perhaps on the outside of it to.

I don't think perception gains have much to do with telling you about future mob loots or future items in loot. But I do think that perception gains do tell us something else - a third thing - maybe that there is ore or enmatter somewhere near you. Or perhaps some perception gains are purposely given to us as red herrings. There could also be a timer as previously discussed on this thread, and this could be set to something like 120 seconds (that is a total guess so pls don't bother asking questions on that).

Forrest :)

PS I did rebomb/reprobe when I got a hit but the percentage hit rates from that after both perc and dext were so small that I would not recommend it. (Something like 4 out of 20 hit).

OK so I guess it;s not all that random after all.. thx for the test. the Cross-comparing with dexterity is very nice.
 

KeynesAlley

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I don't know if it's true or just my personal "perception", but the higher perception you have it seem to me that you find more stuff on the ground; ie fruit, dung, etc.
 

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6/17 is less than chance isn't it? I don't see how that test shows anything about perc directing you to larger loots (or loots at all).
 

Deano

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I like perception, It keeps us trying to figure out things.

Perception in my opinion, is merely a way for MA to keep you on your toes. it really doesn’t affect anything at all. the perception skill gains are totally random, and they cause people to spend the extra bomb, probe, ammo to find the loot, so that they will make an extra buck, let me emphasize that this is only my personal opinion.
 

Mr Trayles

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After reading this thread, I started to pay attention to my perception gains. I am finding pretty decent loots (like above 5 ped) about 60% of the time after a perception gain. And perhaps above 15 peds about 10% of the time.

Reading all the other threads, and listening to all the nay-sayers, I can understand why they don't buy it.

I am not stating that I have totally come to the conclusion that perception is an indicator of good loot around, but I am getting there.

The problem is finding the loot. Just because you get a perception gain doesn't mean that you are going to find a good loot. Because you may not have the ability to find it.

I know that I am opening up another can of worms here, but let's say that perception is really an indicator of a good loot nearby. If that is so, then the loot is already dished out before you shoot or drop your bombs. This is really what I have thought all along so it falls in line that there can be an indicator of these loots about.

But just because there is an indicator doesn't mean that you can find it. You might get a perception hit because there is an IX of Gazz at 967m to your left. But you don't have an Ore Finder that even goes that deep. So you aren't going to find it. It may even be at 104m and you have a finder that goes down to an average depth of 750m. Again, you won't find it. If fruit, dung, and stones are indeed included in perception gains, you might miss it if you don't explore the whole area. It easy to see why people dismiss it so easily as a myth when they don't find anything most of the time.

I keep six finders with me all the time. 3 for ore, 3 for matter, for three different depths. When mining, I usually go at a depth that comes up most for the area. But when I hit a perc, I will break them all out and look a little more thoroughly. And if there are mobs about, I will have to strike them down, too.

60% is not exactly difinitive, but I am beginning to believe it. And I believe that I can now thank you for bringing this to my attention. ( I know it was discussed before this thread, but it was the first one on perception that I bothered to read )
 

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After reading this thread, I started to pay attention to my perception gains. I am finding pretty decent loots (like above 5 ped) about 60% of the time after a perception gain. And perhaps above 15 peds about 10% of the time.

Reading all the other threads, and listening to all the nay-sayers, I can understand why they don't buy it.

I am not stating that I have totally come to the conclusion that perception is an indicator of good loot around, but I am getting there.

The problem is finding the loot. Just because you get a perception gain doesn't mean that you are going to find a good loot. Because you may not have the ability to find it.

I know that I am opening up another can of worms here, but let's say that perception is really an indicator of a good loot nearby. If that is so, then the loot is already dished out before you shoot or drop your bombs. This is really what I have thought all along so it falls in line that there can be an indicator of these loots about.

But just because there is an indicator doesn't mean that you can find it. You might get a perception hit because there is an IX of Gazz at 967m to your left. But you don't have an Ore Finder that even goes that deep. So you aren't going to find it. It may even be at 104m and you have a finder that goes down to an average depth of 750m. Again, you won't find it. If fruit, dung, and stones are indeed included in perception gains, you might miss it if you don't explore the whole area. It easy to see why people dismiss it so easily as a myth when they don't find anything most of the time.

I keep six finders with me all the time. 3 for ore, 3 for matter, for three different depths. When mining, I usually go at a depth that comes up most for the area. But when I hit a perc, I will break them all out and look a little more thoroughly. And if there are mobs about, I will have to strike them down, too.

60% is not exactly difinitive, but I am beginning to believe it. And I believe that I can now thank you for bringing this to my attention. ( I know it was discussed before this thread, but it was the first one on perception that I bothered to read )

Nice to see someone new starting to belive in the truth ;P Pm sent
 

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It must be over a month already since i last gained perception while mining :p
Then again, i don't really gain skills unamped anymore, kinda blows away the skill theories when you need to drop few hundred bombs to even get a skillgain.
 

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Yes Perception theory fades compared to "Gimme Crit!" skill unlock.
I wish i had such awesome power
 

Legion

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It must be over a month already since i last gained perception while mining :p
Then again, i don't really gain skills unamped anymore, kinda blows away the skill theories when you need to drop few hundred bombs to even get a skillgain.

not really, then your so skilled you should most likely profit anyway, or if you used amps know where to go from extracting your stuff. :)
 

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Fun you should mention this, because last night I got 2 perceptions. First one I got from killing a mob just before I dropped a bomb doing grid work. Then dropped the bomb and got IX belkar. Second one I dropped the bomb got perception and started walking forward towards where i was going drop next bomb and fruit appeared.

Again I'm marking this up as coincidence, but theories are fun when they work. lol

Anybody got a theory on Intelligence gain while mining? I'm curious now.
 

Legion

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Fun you should mention this, because last night I got 2 perceptions. First one I got from killing a mob just before I dropped a bomb doing grid work. Then dropped the bomb and got IX belkar. Second one I dropped the bomb got perception and started walking forward towards where i was going drop next bomb and fruit appeared.

Again I'm marking this up as coincidence, but theories are fun when they work. lol

Anybody got a theory on Intelligence gain while mining? I'm curious now.

check my skillgain mining thread :)
 

Cail

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Yes Perception theory fades compared to "Gimme Crit!" skill unlock.
I wish i had such awesome power
That was actually an accident, it was a crit-happyhour at CP and i meant for the mob to crit me but unfortunately i critted right after writing it :|
 

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Selective copy pasting From developer notes 2:

that avatar skills do indeed matter a great deal

Let's see developer notes 3 make meatbread out of my old theory.. so necro bump for relevance.
 

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*deleted* misread
 
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an0nimen

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OK let me tell you why perception dose NOT indicate any kind of loot or is anything other then just a simple skill gain like all the others. It's simple and anyone that has ever played this game and has half a brain can figure this out. Entropia Universe is a business to MA and there business is to take money from players so they can live with it and it would be bad business if you had an obvious indicator of loot to players (loot to player is MA loss of profit) so alone for that fact it is ludicrous to even believe that they are so bad coders that they would not see such a system flaw.

Imagine a Las Vegas slot machine that would always pay out after you got the same non wining combo twice in a row and that majority of players would know about well that machine would get scraped that instant owner finds out about it and same apply to virtual slot machine like EU is. But on the other hand if people believe in "god" or in our case perception that is again good business for somebody somewhere :)

Long stuff short this game is about money and there is no magical skill that would let you have free/easy money cause that would simply be bad business.

And i almost forgot to mention my 10.000€ lost in this game following "the perception dream" is where i am getting this from just in case somebody was wondering so it's a pretty solid and well proven fact no screenshots needed ;)
 

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PERC worked for me when I played a lot
 

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From "The Men Who Stare at Goats":

- There's a story that Wong Wifu, the great Chinese martial artist, had a fight with a guy and beat him. Then the guy gave him this light tap. Wong looked at him and the guy just nodded. That was it. He had given him the death touch. Wong died.
- Then and there?
- No. About eighteen years later.

:lolup:
 

Spawn

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OK let me tell you why perception dose NOT indicate any kind of loot or is anything other then just a simple skill gain like all the others. It's simple and anyone that has ever played this game and has half a brain can figure this out. Entropia Universe is a business to MA and there business is to take money from players so they can live with it and it would be bad business if you had an obvious indicator of loot to players (loot to player is MA loss of profit) so alone for that fact it is ludicrous to even believe that they are so bad coders that they would not see such a system flaw.

Imagine a Las Vegas slot machine that would always pay out after you got the same non wining combo twice in a row and that majority of players would know about well that machine would get scraped that instant owner finds out about it and same apply to virtual slot machine like EU is. But on the other hand if people believe in "god" or in our case perception that is again good business for somebody somewhere :)

Long stuff short this game is about money and there is no magical skill that would let you have free/easy money cause that would simply be bad business.

And i almost forgot to mention my 10.000€ lost in this game following "the perception dream" is where i am getting this from just in case somebody was wondering so it's a pretty solid and well proven fact no screenshots needed ;)

Necro deathwish 15 ? This thread is over 5 years old...
Much has changed since then.
Still I never claimed perc would make you rich. My only claim is that it will stretch your pedcard longer so you have more playtime.
Perc gains still work for me. I can simply go to certain spots in the universe and know upfront that I will get a mini, a global, or a hof.
But the bank always wins in the end and that's OK. Just saying playing smart and taking notion of your surroundings does help. ( and it's in the first post of this thread)
 

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