FYI: "There's no markup in the game". Meanwhile the auction... (one of the most important lessons in the game: auction house)

[detritus2.0]

I understand your logic, I really do. But you also have to look at the people coming into the game, how many are going to be an eve, mess, image. There are going to be a lot of players coming into the game wanting to buy a bunch of limited weapons/amps/armors so on, that creates a more flourishing economy.

Right, but those players don't just create more demand, they also create more supply. What are they doing with all these weaps/amps/armors they are buying? Increasing the resource supply. The problem is that the items that are consumed through normal play don't exert enough relative pressure on the supply gained through normal play. In other words, the production of items used needs to require more resources than it currently does, or inversely the amount of resources gained through normal activities needs to be reduced.

People are talking about high markups, and that was mainly me yesterday. I was crafting Gizmo 8 and got frustrated. The reason for the high prices isn't "bad player habits"—it's the drop rates.

I was seeing maybe 2-3 blueprint drops per thousand clicks. Of course, you'll get plenty of low-value (L) BPs, but anything useful is incredibly rare. This is the real reason for high markups. It's not some "lesson" players are failing; it's a direct result of supply being choked by the game.

This is a catch-22 for MA. Everyone wants higher MU loots but it's scarcity that creates MU. You want oil's to average 110% instead of 102%? Then we need to loot a lot more shrap and a lot less oils. But nobody wants that, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Those rare BP drops have high value because they are rare. You want them to drop more often? Fine, but then value will drop as well.


The whole economy is incredibly difficult to balance, especially across professions. Hunters don't want to pay 120% for a gun, but they want to be able to sell the resources used to make the gun for 118%. Something's gotta give.

 

[Baldurn]

I really like you Eve but I don't agree with you here. I like that prices can be wildly volatile (if players choose them to be in a free market) and that it creates opportunities for people to buy during oversupply and sell during shortages - in the same way a hunter has the opportunity to sit on their looted materials to time the market instead of just converting it to nanocubes or even TTing them. In the same way a person can buy and empty auction and increase price on something temporarily it is just as beautiful when people flood the market and dump the price.

I have had so many people complain at me over the years how I price things in auction or on the forum. Somehow some people (not referring to you ) in this game believe that there is a shared responsibility between owners of the same item to keep the price stable and not decrease price. But if something doesn't sell over time - what to do? I am not usually an impatient player but when something doesn't sell for weeks or months on end and auctions just keep expiring I am quite ready to just throw up the item at TT=SB 7 days and see where the market prices the item (but maybe less so on expensive items 20k+). If other owners of the same item believes it sells for too little then their expectation on the market is either too high or the could always buy the item themselves instead and have 2

 

[Sub-Zero]

While I understand your thoughts about this thread, to increase awareness. The effect won't be noticeable.

If only MA would rebalance loot across all planets to loot something like 90% shrapnel, 5% oil, 5% misc or similar.
Oils would go up, misc could go up.

Players with lower bankroll would be able to keep cycling with their looted shrapnel for longer and not need to undercut as often in order to get peds to continue their cycling.

Higher dpp can be more oil/misc but limit to max 10%.

The reason people undercut is to sell quick, and often times to be able to keep cycling.. I am guilty of that too at times.

It's too easy to loot oil, and especially since it can be botted on instances with 10-15% oils. An uber with big pedcard go to Moloch's and comes with 30k ped of spleen within a day or two..

 

[Boardian Chilix]

This is a catch-22 for MA. Everyone wants higher MU loots but it's scarcity that creates MU. You want oil's to average 110% instead of 102%? Then we need to loot a lot more shrap and a lot less oils. But nobody wants that, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Those rare BP drops have high value because they are rare. You want them to drop more often? Fine, but then value will drop as well.


The whole economy is incredibly difficult to balance, especially across professions. Hunters don't want to pay 120% for a gun, but they want to be able to sell the resources used to make the gun for 118%. Something's gotta give.

You're right that scarcity creates value, that's a basic "catch-22" of any economy. But I think you're missing the real problem, and it's not as simple as "Hunters want 118% MU."

The issue is that items that weren't rare before are extremely rare now. It's not about balancing new loot; it's about old loot pools seemingly drying up.

You're talking about balancing professions, but I'm talking about a lack of any drops. As I said, I was the one crafting Gizmo 8 yesterday. Look at what I got from around 4,000 clicks:

• AP-54 Electric (L) Blueprint (L): 17
• Armor Plating Mk. 6A, Perfected (L) Blueprint (L): 19
• Infiltrator Foot Guards (L) Blueprint (L): 17
• Luna Gloves (L) Blueprint (L): 3
• Zombie Arm Guards (L) Blueprint: 2
• AP-54 Burn (L) Blueprint (L): 4
• Armor Tech Gizmo 7 Blueprint: 2
• Armor Tech Gizmo 8 Blueprint: 1

Do you see the problem here? I got a total of 21 clicks for (L) AP-54 plates in 4,000 attempts.

Let's think about that. There are 9 damage types and 7 levels of armor. Based on my drop rate, to get just one (L) set of each plate type, I would need to do roughly 4,000 * 9 * 7 = 252,000 clicks. That is an unbelievable grind just for the (L) blueprints, not even the unlimited ones.

This is the real issue. This content was introduced in 2017-2018, and nothing new has come for this crafting chain in 7-8 years. At the same time, all the other planets have been adding new unlimited plates and armor chains. But on Calypso, it feels stuck. The same thing is true for Art-Matrix weapons. If you want a mid-high level one, the BPs are ultra-rare.

So, why should anyone grind for this stuff today? If you didn't get these BPs years ago, there's no reason to craft now. The system isn't "balanced"; it's just old, and the drops feel like they're gone. That's why markups are so fucked.

 

[Evey]

I really like you Eve but I don't agree with you here. I like that prices can be wildly volatile (if players choose them to be in a free market) and that it creates opportunities for people to buy during oversupply and sell during shortages - in the same way a hunter has the opportunity to sit on their looted materials to time the market instead of just converting it to nanocubes or even TTing them. In the same way a person can buy and empty auction and increase price on something temporarily it is just as beautiful when people flood the market and dump the price.

I have had so many people complain at me over the years how I price things in auction or on the forum. Somehow some people (not referring to you ) in this game believe that there is a shared responsibility between owners of the same item to keep the price stable and not decrease price. But if something doesn't sell over time - what to do? I am not usually an impatient player but when something doesn't sell for weeks or months on end and auctions just keep expiring I am quite ready to just throw up the item at TT=SB 7 days and see where the market prices the item (but maybe less so on expensive items 20k+). If other owners of the same item believes it sells for too little then their expectation on the market is either too high or the could always buy the item themselves instead and have 2

Thank you Baldurn, I like you too, but you did not disagree with me much.

I'm not sure why some people feel it's about them or feel they should stand up for people playing differently than described in OP, the whole idea of the post is oriented towards the new players that are trying to understand the game, that's the reason for which I placed this in n00b's corner and not in general chat.

People are free to thow away their money as well as it's obvious when something doesn't sell the price comes down, following a supply/demand market logic. You and other seasoned players seem to know very well the consequences of impatient style of selling their stuff. So obviously it's not directed towards yourself.

People have the right to sell their property however they want. This is crystal clear and doesn't need any further debate. Even when you loot last part of a rare armor set, it's still entirely up to you hat you do with it, you can even TT it.
For those that want to undercut me not by 2%, but by 5%, I'm in many places of the AH as an active hunter because I have lots of loot for sale so feel free to buy the entire auction and not undercut me by 5%, but you can TT it to teach me a lesson..

This thread is oriented for players that are joining now or are new, or even veteran players that might find and want to, ofc, an useful tip or trick, people that should start early in game to build a habit of being mindful when selling in auction, because it has big implications over their EU game. Eu is hard, at all levels, but especially on low level.

When people say loot is crap, on forums, the usual question is: tell us your setup and what you hunt. Also a common question should be: how you auction? Because it is equally important and has similar impact...

People that find other scopes within the scope of the game, or forget the initial reason for which people start to play EU which is RCE - this thread might not be for you so no reason to jump and perfectly fine to disagree with me as well

People that just want to gamble or have FU money and don't care about percentages, are very good for the economy of the game, this thread is not for you or about you, you do you.

One misconception in some of the replies - cutting is bad. I didn't say it's 100% bad, just that it can be done in small increments that won't drastically decrease a resource the seller is constantly farming so it's a win-win long term.

 

[aVaLON_52]

• good rule of thumb, Match lowest and lock it up (sb/bo) . Assuming lowest fits the trend (recent mu)
• Check TIR before posting
• SB 1 can be ok for items that have no history
• test for higher mu if supply is low or if only item on ah
• consider nanocube if low qty and low mu
• splash a few of an item rather than dump 10+ of same item same mu to mitigate expired listings ( or one at a time)
• keep an eye out for good deals, there are many

 

[Kristoliquid]

We have reached some kind of low point for sure

People are lowballing their own selves.

Hang in there!!!!

 

[Ferial]

This is quite possibly the most important thread on pcf now.

I'd even go as far as to say NEVER cut, at all. (Note that i refer to cutting as selling below market value where market value is actual market value and not what is listed anywhere in game)

If you need to sell fast, you have either made a bad decision and you should take time off until you manage to sell your stuff for what it is actually worth. Or you have taken advantage of an opportunity in which you knew beforehand you would end up in this situation and you have the choice of either slowing down or depositing to keep exploiting the opportunity.

In either situation cutting is bad for you as well as everyone else (I mean, almost everyone else).

 

[The Mind]

In RCE the cost of opportunity dictates the rules.
1. How much you losing?
Why people take loans? Its because they expect to make more money, during the same period of time, than the fees.
2. How much you gaining?
Is it worth hoarding 30k TT for added 1% in the next 6 monts? Is it worth waiting even past those 6 months if price never reached your "goal"? Or would you be better doing something else with that money?

Its all about net gain during the same period of time. Stacking and ramping prices is convenience, not efficiency.
If it works best for you to hoard, you hoard. If it works best for you to cycle fast, you cycle. Do what you have to do in order to gain the most.

 

[Arkadian Knight]

Lot of great information in this thread.

Unfortunately the Race to the Bottom is completely normal and can be witnessed in markets such as eBay and Amazon everyday. It is dictated by the amount of inventory available in the marketplace. Oversaturation of certain products causes the price to tank and selloff to ensue. Basic economics really.

One or two players may hold out and 'fight the good fight' but most are just going to dump their trash loot for whatever they can get above the auction fee.

Of course these items can at least be TT'd in Entropia so as not sell at a loss as in the real world. Look at me, glass half full!

 

[JohnCapital]

I'd even go as far as to say NEVER cut, at all. (Note that i refer to cutting as selling below market value where market value is actual market value and not what is listed anywhere in game)

So... market value is, what? Some random number that no one knows?

When I first saw this comment, before reading the full definition you made, my initial thought was that since market value (meaning the MU sown in ingame market value charts) is made from an average of sales, then your concept of math sucks.

But, now I see that your idea of market value isn't "above average only", but even worse. It's just nonsense.

 

[WhiningSkeptic]

I've been reading this thread, and I have to respectfully disagree with the original post's main idea. Focusing on players "undercutting" feels wrong and misleading. The problem isn't that players are selling their loot for too little; the problem is that the entire system is broken.

People are talking about high markups, and that was mainly me yesterday. I was crafting Gizmo 8 and got frustrated. The reason for the high prices isn't "bad player habits"—it's the drop rates.

I was seeing maybe 2-3 blueprint drops per thousand clicks. Of course, you'll get plenty of low-value (L) BPs, but anything useful is incredibly rare. This is the real reason for high markups. It's not some "lesson" players are failing; it's a direct result of supply being choked by the game.

When drops are that bad, why would anyone want to craft? It feels like the system is capped and gone. There are no new blueprints, so there's no reason to even participate in that part of the economy.

And it's not just crafting. The general loot system feels less like a rewarding game and more like just timers and drainers, where you lose, lose, lose, and then get a small carrot to keep you going.

So, the problem isn't players undercutting each other. The problem is that the game's core mechanics make drops so rare that the market is forced to be extreme.

Gamble on the right blueprints then. You can't complain because of your lack of knowledge.

Do L2 Light and you'll have enough limited blueprints to cover for the loss in MU and put you at 95%.

 

[Rocket192]

Sage advice, but people will get !!!!! by auction fees on smaller stacks. the net result might be no different than placement in the center of the first page at whatever the price is.

 

[WhiningSkeptic]

Sage advice, but people will get !!!!! by auction fees on smaller stacks. the net result might be no different than placement in the center of the first page at whatever the price is.

then don't sell small stacks, problem solved

 

[romi impi]

- Have no auction fees if your things don't sell. Would still pay tax for when they do sell. This would remove the fear of your things not selling.

this would distroy the market completely , since there's no harm to keep undercutting.

( remember the diablo 3 real cash auc ? millions of auctions people even selling lower then auction cost when it sold )

 

[Rimmer]

Its a hard topic and i dont really want to admit how much time i spent thinking on this...

There are 2 types of players in this game:
1. Those who treat it as a job. They take it seriously. They are always concerned with maximizing their profits via different strats, some more ethical than others: ramping up the prices, hoarding resources, hostaging markets/events/mechanics, abusing social interactions, etc... They wouldnt be here if not for the monetary benefit.
2. Those who do it as a game. People who dont really count profits/losses and treat it as "paying for entertainment". They dont care about 2%, 5% or 20% undercut. They wouldnt be here if not for the fun factor.
3. And there is a whole spectrum in between. Some serious players have way more aggresive pricing than others. Some TTing metal res from gambling, and some AH it.

And the one thing ive learned in all those years is: both groups just dont give a fuck about each other.
Those who play "smart" look down on "gamblers" like if they were the dumbest people on the planet. Unable to make even tiniest of profits with all that bankroll.
And "gamblers" look at those "smart" people figting for how much 1k sweat should be: 1.3ped or 1.5ped (2 irl cents btw), and cant understand wtf people wasting their lives on.

So, if people want to help out to those who enjoy been profitable, giving them advices on how to be more efficient, is great.
And if people just want to have fun, its also great.

Just dont tell people, with different goals, that they are doing anything wrong.
At the end of the day, its about you enjoying this place the way you like it.

Well put.

 

[Boardian Chilix]

Gamble on the right blueprints then. You can't complain because of your lack of knowledge.

Do L2 Light and you'll have enough limited blueprints to cover for the loss in MU and put you at 95%.

"Lack of knowledge"?

Wow. That's a bold claim. Let's talk about knowledge, shall we?

My "lack of knowledge" has led me to... well, let's just look at the records. My discovery log is a journey through this game's high-tier content: Aquila, Hydra, Cetus, Herman LAs, Fireforge weapons, Jester D-2s, and all the way up to AP-48 plates and Reaper armor parts just last week. My crafting history shows dozens of complex, high-PED items. It's called a balanced portfolio.

Now, let's look at your "knowledge." Your crafting record consists of spam-crafting the exact same two items: "Level 2 Finder Amp" and "Explosive Projectiles."

You're a one-trick pony. So please, don't lecture anyone on "knowledge." You're not even in the same league.

But let's talk about your "expert" advice. You said I should "Do L2 Light and you'll have enough limited blueprints to cover for the loss in MU and put you at 95%."

I actually ran the numbers on this. Since you seem to need the lesson, let's go step-by-step and break down how we got to these figures.

1. My "Complaint" Run (Gizmo 8)​

This is the craft I was originally talking about.

• Total Cost: I ran the calculation for 100 clicks. The total Trade Terminal (TT) value of the materials (Widget 8, Spleen, Gizmo 7, etc.) is 6.2 PED per click. But with current market markups, the actual cost to buy all those materials comes out to 646.7 PED.
• Total Return: On the other side, the expected return from the products we craft (the Gizmo 8s themselves) plus the residue, all sold at market value, is 604.5 PED.
• Result: 604.5 (What I Get Back) - 646.7 (What I Spent) = -42.2 PED Loss.

2. Your "Expert Solution" (Level 2 Light)​

This is the "smarter" craft you told me to do instead.

• Total Cost: I ran the same 100-click calculation for your L2 Light suggestion. The cost to buy the Belkar, Probes, and BSM with markup is 629.44 PED.
• Total Return: The expected return from those products and their residue is 575.73 PED.
• Result: 575.73 (What I Get Back) - 629.44 (What I Spent) = -53.7 PED Loss.

So let's review. Your grand, "knowledgeable" advice to fix my -42 PED loss... is to do something that results in a -53 PED loss. You're telling me to stop digging a hole so I can start digging... a deeper hole. Brilliant.

And another thing: my original post was never about TT returns. It was about the markups caused by impossibly low BP drop rates. Your entire answer seems to be based on a TT-return logic that I wasn't even talking about.

You brought up the good markup you get from selling your Level 1-4 BPs, and how that gets you to 95%. Let me ask you something: where do you think the overall markup from a full run (including BP drops) should be better? On a Level 1 starter item, or on a high-tier Level 8 component?

If the game is set up so the only way to get a decent return is by crafting L1 items for their "boosted" BP drops, isn't that a clear sign the high-level crafting chain is broken? That was my entire point.

And here's the funny part about your 95% "return": you're bragging about getting BPs that are "boosted," but some of those BPs actually reduce your overall TT return. You'd get a better TT return if you didn't get those specific BPs. You're so focused on the markup of one item that you're missing the bigger picture of your own craft.

(As a side note, the Gizmo 8 BP drop rate did get a little better after that terrible run, but it's still nowhere near what it should be.)

My point stands: I am talking about a specific, high-level crafting chain. Your advice is mathematically wrong, your experience doesn't apply, and you completely missed the point of my post. Please, take a seat and light up something better to smoke.

 

[WhiningSkeptic]

"Lack of knowledge"?

Wow. That's a bold claim. Let's talk about knowledge, shall we?

My "lack of knowledge" has led me to... well, let's just look at the records. My discovery log is a journey through this game's high-tier content: Aquila, Hydra, Cetus, Herman LAs, Fireforge weapons, Jester D-2s, and all the way up to AP-48 plates and Reaper armor parts just last week. My crafting history shows dozens of complex, high-PED items. It's called a balanced portfolio.

Now, let's look at your "knowledge." Your crafting record consists of spam-crafting the exact same two items: "Level 2 Finder Amp" and "Explosive Projectiles."

You're a one-trick pony. So please, don't lecture anyone on "knowledge." You're not even in the same league.

But let's talk about your "expert" advice. You said I should "Do L2 Light and you'll have enough limited blueprints to cover for the loss in MU and put you at 95%."

I actually ran the numbers on this. Since you seem to need the lesson, let's go step-by-step and break down how we got to these figures.

1. My "Complaint" Run (Gizmo 8)​

This is the craft I was originally talking about.

• Total Cost: I ran the calculation for 100 clicks. The total Trade Terminal (TT) value of the materials (Widget 8, Spleen, Gizmo 7, etc.) is 6.2 PED per click. But with current market markups, the actual cost to buy all those materials comes out to 646.7 PED.
• Total Return: On the other side, the expected return from the products we craft (the Gizmo 8s themselves) plus the residue, all sold at market value, is 604.5 PED.
• Result: 604.5 (What I Get Back) - 646.7 (What I Spent) = -42.2 PED Loss.

2. Your "Expert Solution" (Level 2 Light)​

This is the "smarter" craft you told me to do instead.

• Total Cost: I ran the same 100-click calculation for your L2 Light suggestion. The cost to buy the Belkar, Probes, and BSM with markup is 629.44 PED.
• Total Return: The expected return from those products and their residue is 575.73 PED.
• Result: 575.73 (What I Get Back) - 629.44 (What I Spent) = -53.7 PED Loss.

So let's review. Your grand, "knowledgeable" advice to fix my -42 PED loss... is to do something that results in a -53 PED loss. You're telling me to stop digging a hole so I can start digging... a deeper hole. Brilliant.

And another thing: my original post was never about TT returns. It was about the markups caused by impossibly low BP drop rates. Your entire answer seems to be based on a TT-return logic that I wasn't even talking about.

You brought up the good markup you get from selling your Level 1-4 BPs, and how that gets you to 95%. Let me ask you something: where do you think the overall markup from a full run (including BP drops) should be better? On a Level 1 starter item, or on a high-tier Level 8 component?

If the game is set up so the only way to get a decent return is by crafting L1 items for their "boosted" BP drops, isn't that a clear sign the high-level crafting chain is broken? That was my entire point.

And here's the funny part about your 95% "return": you're bragging about getting BPs that are "boosted," but some of those BPs actually reduce your overall TT return. You'd get a better TT return if you didn't get those specific BPs. You're so focused on the markup of one item that you're missing the bigger picture of your own craft.

(As a side note, the Gizmo 8 BP drop rate did get a little better after that terrible run, but it's still nowhere near what it should be.)

My point stands: I am talking about a specific, high-level crafting chain. Your advice is mathematically wrong, your experience doesn't apply, and you completely missed the point of my post. Please, take a seat and light up something better to smoke.

That's amazing, with all that knowledge you are well aware about variance. I red your initial post as a rant on a bad run and not looting the blueprints you want to.

The boosted blueprints (if sold, I prefer to click myself because I am a gambler at heart) that are looted from the L2 Light blueprint makes up for a huuuuuge chunk of the returns. Sometimes bad runs happen but it evens out. The addition of extenders in game adds for even more markup making it feasible to craft low level amps over say EP4 when you want to gamble.

I'll apologize for being unnecessarily rude in my earlier reply.

 

[Boardian Chilix]

That's amazing, with all that knowledge you are well aware about variance. I red your initial post as a rant on a bad run and not looting the blueprints you want to.

The boosted blueprints (if sold, I prefer to click myself because I am a gambler at heart) that are looted from the L2 Light blueprint makes up for a huuuuuge chunk of the returns. Sometimes bad runs happen but it evens out. The addition of extenders in game adds for even more markup making it feasible to craft low level amps over say EP4 when you want to gamble.

I'll apologize for being unnecessarily rude in my earlier reply.

Hey, no hard feelings at all, and apology accepted. We're all good.

To be honest, I only jumped into this thread in the first place because I thought the original poster's example picture was a bit misleading... and it was misleading because of me.

Just before that picture was taken, I was the one who bought out the entire auction for that specific item. I think I left just one for sale at a crazy-high price, something like 130%.

So when the picture showed sales starting at 108% and was used as an example of 'people undercutting,' it was just an anecdotal, one-off situation that I had personally caused. In reality, most of those super-high markups are way out of the normal market range. If people did list their items that high, they'd probably just sit there and lose the auction fees.

In that specific scenario, the smart thing to do was to undercut the 108% listing and sell at the top of the actual market gap, which is exactly what those other players did.

My post just kind of... turned into a rant about the Gizmo 8. I didn't mean to hijack the thread; I was just trying to explain why I was frustrated and show a real example of what causes those high markups in the first place. It was just a one-time thing to explain my own situation.

So, yeah, I just jumped in because I was directly involved in that first example. All good.

 

[WhiningSkeptic]

Hey, no hard feelings at all, and apology accepted. We're all good.

To be honest, I only jumped into this thread in the first place because I thought the original poster's example picture was a bit misleading... and it was misleading because of me.

Just before that picture was taken, I was the one who bought out the entire auction for that specific item. I think I left just one for sale at a crazy-high price, something like 130%.

So when the picture showed sales starting at 108% and was used as an example of 'people undercutting,' it was just an anecdotal, one-off situation that I had personally caused. In reality, most of those super-high markups are way out of the normal market range. If people did list their items that high, they'd probably just sit there and lose the auction fees.

In that specific scenario, the smart thing to do was to undercut the 108% listing and sell at the top of the actual market gap, which is exactly what those other players did.

My post just kind of... turned into a rant about the Gizmo 8. I didn't mean to hijack the thread; I was just trying to explain why I was frustrated and show a real example of what causes those high markups in the first place. It was just a one-time thing to explain my own situation.

So, yeah, I just jumped in because I was directly involved in that first example. All good.

Perhaps the example was used as it was extreme?

I know a lot of people (I do it too) will try to be the cheapest one on auction just to get a quick sale. But in this particular example even if you yourself caused the spike, people would follow the market data and buy at a higher price. There are very, very few people who bother to do the actual math when crafting something. If daily market data shows 105% they will find that acceptable to pay even though the actual limit for them should have been 102%. A lot of components (which you probably are aware of) can be crafted at a profit if one pays enough attention. I have my notepad next to my PC with acceptable markups for certain resources.

I think the main point of the OP is to highlight the importance of patience if a player wants to lower their cost to play. By putting some effort into how you auction stuff there are a few percent of additional markup to have on multiple items. As I mentioned earlier 1% markup is equal to 15 levels of looter and no one would question levelling the looter skill.

As an example of timing, this would be a good example. Study the global ticker, learn a few recepies and go put the right materials on auction at the right time. I know that there are at least two other players who likes to do the L2 amps in longer runs, so if a miner spots us taking turns globaling then that would be the moment to list the belkar on the auction.

Some materials are quite scarce when people go on extended runs like you did.

 

[Boardian Chilix]

Perhaps the example was used as it was extreme?

I know a lot of people (I do it too) will try to be the cheapest one on auction just to get a quick sale. But in this particular example even if you yourself caused the spike, people would follow the market data and buy at a higher price. There are very, very few people who bother to do the actual math when crafting something. If daily market data shows 105% they will find that acceptable to pay even though the actual limit for them should have been 102%. A lot of components (which you probably are aware of) can be crafted at a profit if one pays enough attention. I have my notepad next to my PC with acceptable markups for certain resources.

I think the main point of the OP is to highlight the importance of patience if a player wants to lower their cost to play. By putting some effort into how you auction stuff there are a few percent of additional markup to have on multiple items. As I mentioned earlier 1% markup is equal to 15 levels of looter and no one would question levelling the looter skill.

As an example of timing, this would be a good example. Study the global ticker, learn a few recepies and go put the right materials on auction at the right time. I know that there are at least two other players who likes to do the L2 amps in longer runs, so if a miner spots us taking turns globaling then that would be the moment to list the belkar on the auction.

Some materials are quite scarce when people go on extended runs like you did.

Perhaps the example was used as it was extreme?

I know a lot of people (I do it too) will try to be the cheapest one on auction just to get a quick sale. But in this particular example even if you yourself caused the spike, people would follow the market data and buy at a higher price. There are very, very few people who bother to do the actual math when crafting something. If daily market data shows 105% they will find that acceptable to pay even though the actual limit for them should have been 102%. A lot of components (which you probably are aware of) can be crafted at a profit if one pays enough attention. I have my notepad next to my PC with acceptable markups for certain resources.

I think the main point of the OP is to highlight the importance of patience if a player wants to lower their cost to play. By putting some effort into how you auction stuff there are a few percent of additional markup to have on multiple items. As I mentioned earlier 1% markup is equal to 15 levels of looter and no one would question levelling the looter skill.

As an example of timing, this would be a good example. Study the global ticker, learn a few recepies and go put the right materials on auction at the right time. I know that there are at least two other players who likes to do the L2 amps in longer runs, so if a miner spots us taking turns globaling then that would be the moment to list the belkar on the auction.

Some materials are quite scarce when people go on extended runs like you did.

You're absolutely right about patience, and the looter skill comparison is a great point. A few percent saved here and there really adds up.

And your example about timing the Belkar market when you see L2 amp crafters globaling is spot on.

But in this case, the key component is Spleen. The problem is, Spleen is a very niche item. I'd say its uses are something like 90% for Gizmo 8, maybe 9% for Simple 3 Plastic Springs, and 1% for other random things.

There are very few players actively crafting Gizmo 8, and most of those who do are probably just self-sufficient, crafting the ones they get from their own hunting. It's not like Belkar, which has tons of different uses and a huge base of crafters who need it. That broad use for Belkar also means it's needed in all sorts of different amounts, creating a healthy market with a wide spectrum of stack sizes and prices. For example, a small batch of Belkar will probably sell for a much higher markup than a huge batch. Spleen is the opposite; its demand is for one specific craft, so the market is much less open and it will mostly only sell if it's priced around the lowest point because of its high TT value and limited uses. If you exclude the 2 main crafters of Gizmo 8 (who are very aware of the price i would say) and the main reseller, I would say that leaves not much of a market at all.

So it's way harder to "time" the Spleen market, if you're even able to at all. There's almost no one to sell to. The "patience" strategy doesn't work if the demand just isn't there.

And just to circle back to that original auction picture, it proves this point. If you look at the sales history after that, those "low" sales, which were the last ones posted at less than 104% and were being pointed, were actually the absolute top of the market gap for the next several days. It just confirms that the most listings were complete outliers.

 

[Manique]

I'll just keep my mouth shut but i'll subscribe with this post.

However i like most input but, this is one of the most important part of the games and people underlook it

 

[Ferial]

So... market value is, what? Some random number that no one knows?

When I first saw this comment, before reading the full definition you made, my initial thought was that since market value (meaning the MU sown in ingame market value charts) is made from an average of sales, then your concept of math sucks.

But, now I see that your idea of market value isn't "above average only", but even worse. It's just nonsense.

When I first saw this comment, before reading the full post, I wasn't going to respond. It is just a terribly argumental post and not one that opens for a lot of discussion.

However, since you asked so nicely:

I can see where you are coming from, and it was my fault for lazily wording my post. (I blame being old and writing on a phone, rather than a keyboard)

What I did mean is that in a cyclical and very predictable market (as the one in Entropia) there are times when you will end up in a situation where you know prices will drop very soon and cutting is a choice you make because you are aware of this.

I have never claimed that market value would be above average. I can say that market value is more often than not above the average MU of currently listed auctions (naturally, because of the cutting)

 

[Ferial]

So... market value is, what? Some random number that no one knows?

When I first saw this comment, before reading the full definition you made, my initial thought was that since market value (meaning the MU sown in ingame market value charts) is made from an average of sales, then your concept of math sucks.

But, now I see that your idea of market value isn't "above average only", but even worse. It's just nonsense.

When I first saw this comment, before reading the full post, I wasn't going to respond. It is just a terribly argumental post and not one that opens for a lot of discussion.

However, since you asked so nicely:

I can see where you are coming from, and it was my fault for lazily wording my post. (I blame being old and writing on a phone, rather than a keyboard)

What I did mean is that in a cyclical and very predictable market (as the one in Entropia) there are times when you will end up in a situation where you know prices will drop very soon and cutting is a choice you make to liquidate now.

However, market value could and should factor in historical short term data(e.g. the numbers shown when you check MU in game), current market valuation (e.g. what is currently available on the market) as well as your predicted short term changes (or long term, depending on your position on the item in question).

You should only ever cut when you are still getting more than you think something is worth or going to be worth in the term of your choice OR if you are getting your money out of a position to get more elsewhere.

 

[Legends]

In support of Evey's effort I will contribute a few bits of wisdom accumulated through the last decade or so of intensive Auction House use:

Functionality:
- You only need 3 characters to search the auction, use them wisely (example: "-65" will show you all items listed that have "-65" in the name, such as "ArMatrix LR-65 Blueprint")
- Words don't need to follow each other to yield results (example: enter "Hyperion Blueprint" in the search bar to see all of the Hyperion weapon BPs listed)
- Select a category, then search, then sort and/or apply filters (example: select the "Armor" category, search for "Harness", filter for "male" only and sort from lowest to highest buyout)
- Keep your search query short to yield other relevant results (example: search for "Nemesis" to see both regular and Adjusted parts, or search for "Ares Ring" to see all of them from Adjusted to Perfected)
- Search first then switch planets to compare listings (example: search for "Pel Liquid" on Caly, study the listings there, then switch the planet to Arkadia. The auction will show you the results on Arkadia. You can continue switching planets this way to compare the listings and find the best deal in the universe)
- If you buy something on another planet and are not in a rush to get it, leave it in the auction, under the "Won" tab. After a year it will magically appear in your carried inventory at no cost.
- If the auction search bugs out when launching it from the crafting machine, just click on one of the sorting arrows and it will re-search and display properly, without having to manually type the item you were looking for.
- If you get an error message when trying to place a bid that says you have insufficient funds when in fact, you have plenty of funds on your PED card, just extract a large amount of PED from your card and drop it back onto your card, then you will be able to place your bid.

Auction Selling Strategy:
- Stack quantities matter: for coloring and texturing, the amount required for maximum success rate for 1 field is 323. You should try to make this your minimum stack size to maximize chances of selling your stack of textures and colors that have a lot of listings on the auction. For harder to find stuff, anything goes.
- Timing: try to time your item sales properly. For example, now might be a good time to try to sell your Mayhem armor pieces that you looted over the summer Mayhem. Next week will be a good time to sell Damage Enhancers, etc... Selling a limited item you just looted in an event right away is almost always the worst time to sell it. For example, Infiltrator Reworked or ELM weapons only drop historically over Summer Migration. Don't sell them right away, hang on to them until mu recovers, usually 3-6 months later.
- Pricing correctly: understand the supply and demand dynamics of what you are selling. A lot of people seem to have no clue what they are selling and just undercut everyone as a blanket method to reduce failed auctions (which can be costly). Some loot is rare and in demand, and for that loot, it's possible to ask more and still have a very good chance of selling. But it starts with understanding what that loot is used for. Study the graph and ask questions.
- Using the Buyout function properly: if it's an in-demand or scarcer item, the Biuyout should be slightly above mu, that's the "pay a little extra to have it right now" method. If this is a common item that has sales but also lots of listings, make sure that your Buyout is consistent with other listings or slightly under to increase chances of selling before others.
- Using the Start Bid function properly: I start by finding a price that I would be comfortable selling at - not too low but as low as I would be willing to live with. Then, in most cases, before setting my final Start Bid I look at what my listing fee is going to be. If my listing fee is let's say 2.40 PED, then I'm going to drop my start bid probably 2 PED. The thinking here is I'd rather sell it for 2 PED below the price that I would be able to live with, then to lose the 2.40 listing fee and have to pay the fee again, without any guarantee that item will sell on the 2nd try. It's a good workable strategy for mitigating failed auction losses.
- Don't buy a shop thinking you'll throw all your loot in there and it'll sell while you sleep without any effort, that's not going to happen and you will be sorely disappointed. Most loot buyers do it with 4 clicks on the auction and can't be bothered to browse shops for hours to save 3 PEDs.

Auction Buying Strategy:
- If like me you need to review every single listing in a particular category (for me it's armors obviously), the way to ensure you don't miss anything is to sort using the last column, with most recent listing at the top, and check this category everyday. That way you won't miss a single listing. There is no other way to do it without running the chance of missing a good deal.
- When placing a Buy Order, there is no need to outbid the highest buy order, instead, match it but place an order for a higher quantity. The more honorable thing to do however, is to match both the buy price AND the quantity, that keeps things fair for everyone. The qualifying listing defaults to the one with the largest quantity when both prices are the same, and so both buyers take turns in winning auctions.
- Don't hesitate to buy stuff at 101% (whether it's mats, limited items, etc.), there is literally no downside. Worst case scenario you can recycle it to Nanocubes and sell it on the auction pretty quickly and get your money back.

I hope this helps o/

Legends

 

[JohnCapital]

I can see where you are coming from, and it was my fault for lazily wording my post. (I blame being old and writing on a phone, rather than a keyboard)

I can't fault anyone who is willing to say "oops my bad. Allow me to explain better", especially when your newer posts do just that.

In short, you are basically saying folks should be trying to get the most possible out of their items instead of selling for way too little just for the sake of speed. I can agree with that. In fact, that basically what this thread was born from to begin with. I have no problem with that.

But (and this part is not really pointed toward you, but the overall concept of this thread) we must allow be realistic and understand that:

1. Not everyone sells under the same "max your MU at all costs" mentality and it's impossible to get everyone to do that.
2. Even those that do subscribe to that idea, sometimes run into a "need more time than ped" situation.

I will also like to point to market resellers as a stop-gap for prices dropping too too far.

I remember long ago when I looted a Bravo (back when they were more prized than they are now) and decided to sell it for under market just to be nice to some lucky hunter. It sold in 5 minutes and was relisted at way higher MU by the buyer. That was when I learned that it was better to get as much possible from my sales rather than let resellers "earn" all the MU I left behind.

 

[mastermesh]

Mindark should simply remove auction fee for unsold items. They made major changes is past such as removing monthly rent fee for estates, so they can do it but need community push to put it on their radar.

They should also rethink certain things in major ways. For example on some stackable thing with super low tt value near zero it is extremely confusing to a player to look at auction grid showing something in percents which has like six decimal points or whatever...

When it gets that way in statistics but minimum markup increment is a full ped of course there will be fluctuations since not everyone has infinite time or funds to keep resisting loosing as you go due to auction fee for unsold items

Setesh now offers a daily mission to turn in robot residue. System wide they should evaluate everything and create mini missions like this on every planet for EVERY BLASTED RESOURCE that exists, so if you can't mathematically make selling it on auction viable then you have something else to do with it.. With the recent surge in ai and npcs it makes sense to get to that point eventually. Make every single resource that can be looted potentially a part of a daily mission, and also make it so that there's options for big rewards as well as tiny ones at those npcs or turn in points... so both the daily new person and veteran hunter with mega bucks in peds that is hunting decades of hours daily both have something.... make the stats a bit less for the daily, but give the low level player or down on luck vet an option. There's tons of resources in game that practically have no use due to rarity or non-existence of blueprints, etc. Create sinks for those with daily missions that can be done over and over.

Expand the Setesh burger idea system wide in to every city with a tp that is tied to mobs within 100 meters of that area.

 

[SoberPhil]

DON'Ts
- put SB 100% or TT+0. Even when you see some high level players doing it.
- cut quantities listed in the last few hours, match their MU instead, it means things are selling fast
- cut everyone and be the first.
- sell to order. If you do that often then you don't need the peds, you throw the peds...
- put in auction without looking at what's in same category.
- frequently sell to resellers. We understand sometimes they provide liquidity, but if you find yourself constantly selling to resellers, you're doing the RCE wrong, if you're not going anywhere (and let's be honest, there's no such thing as quitting Entropia) you're constantly losing because you're impatient. If you know you are impatient, stop buying stuff, the HOF you're looking for is already lost in all these back and forths selling way cheaper. You are perfeclty capable of selling your own stuff.
- Do not try to convince people to pay you above what's in auction, you will insult them and can be considered as a scamming attempt.

DOs:
- Look when other auction were created!
- Cut with very little up to 0.5%
- Try placing your goods after the first 3-4 entries.
- Try put fixed stacks, and smaller, rather than random or high quantities. (example: 200, 300, 500, 1000 PED TT oils, according to your bankroll)
- Always set 7 days to your auctions - something I always do, but I forgot to mention it above, skeptic reminded me, it's a very good practice indeed.

I'd like to add to this two things. There's often a situation when you see someone undercutting everyone else by a large margin, don't even think about undercutting them too, place you offer just a bit cheaper that the last reasonable offer below the huge undercut. I think resellers might be using this tactic to force everyone to undercut, so they place a huge offer heavily undercutting everyone else > others start to undercut that offer > resellers buy everything and sell back at a higher price. I've seen this with BPs, but not oils. I also don't think there's anything wrong with being first on the list if your offer is big enough and you undercut by a tiny little margin, ie if your offer is reasonable.

 

[detritus2.0]

Curious if there are any tips for dealing with loot on planets other than Caly.

Planet-specific resources, such as those for upgrades or mission chains, are easy to sell. But filler like oils and such are typically a high risk of auction failure, so need to be sold at Caly. This puts a typical player in a bind since most of these resources can only fetch an extra 1-2% MU. With a pickup, a typical warp is around 40 PED, so under 4k worth of loot isn't worth the warp.

What do you guys do in this situation? Or are you basically screwed on other planets if you can't stack up 10k of loot?

 

[mastermesh]

What do you guys do in this situation? Or are you basically screwed on other planets if you can't stack up 10k of loot?

find a local trader, yeah right... like they exist... or alternatively wait until you can get your butt back to Caly to trade, via warp or by being careful with your quad and zig zagging the universe during a quite hour when you think pirates may have retired for the evening.