Transparency - a cornerstone of trust

[Granny Rowan]

Maybe I am old fashioned, or stupid or probably both, but I was brought up to believe a cornerstone of trust is truth, not skulking in corners.
Yet MA offers players the ability to -
Hide profiles
Hide locations (yeh I get this is for PVP and tbh I have no problem with that, it's just a part of the greater issue)
Hide their on-line status
Hide their soc
now whether by accident or design, when you look at a players society page, the soc name does not appear just the initials (as if they are all going to be unique) Please MA who cares what the initials are its soc names we need. Else how can we know who to contact if need to speak to a soc leader, apply to a soc etc
and worse yet, it seems that some socs have either managed to hide themselves from the societies list, or MA accidentally lost them from the list

Its getting to the point that if people don't want to be honest and open, then I and friends are seriously considering do we want to trade with them. Which is not a great way to run an RCE.

 

[The Mind]

Socs are irrelevant.
P2P trade is mostly dead.
Hiding online status/location will save you from been sniped.

 

[TheOneOmega]

Maybe I am old fashioned, or stupid or probably both, but I was brought up to believe a cornerstone of trust is truth, not skulking in corners.
Yet MA offers players the ability to -
Hide profiles
Hide locations (yeh I get this is for PVP and tbh I have no problem with that, it's just a part of the greater issue)
Hide their on-line status
Hide their soc

It is hard to know exactly how old you want to fashion, but around, i.e., the early 2000's, the capacity for anonymity was widely regarded as one of the central and inviolable virtues of the World Wide Web. For those interested who don't remember, the book Permanent Record by Edward Snowden contains a better description and advocacy for the principles of the Internet from that time period than I could hope to offer, but sadly I only read a library copy and don't own it to quote from. Going back as far as the 19th century (and almost certainly earlier) we already find games with hidden information explicitly built into them, such as seven-card-stud Poker.

I think a pretty common experience is to be brought up to believe truth is a virtue in the sense of not making false statements or giving false answers to questions, except in mutually-voluntarily contexts (such as while playing Two Truths and a Lie). A less common experience is to be brought up to believe that truth requires perpetual, public disclosure of one's personal information, location (exception made for solders at war!), at/away-from home status, and relationship network.

Its getting to the point that if people don't want to be honest and open, then I and friends are seriously considering do we want to trade with them. Which is not a great way to run an RCE.

The relevant question is not whether you in fact avoid trading with people because they exercise privacy rights, but whether their exercising privacy rights gives you good reason to avoid trading with them. For example, if you are referring to loans without collateral, then not knowing the counterparty's identity might give you good reason to avoid trading with them, but I doubt this is a form of trade MindArk considers worth preserving. If you are referring to ordinary purchases and sales, then the in-world trading system is robust to most counterparty risk that reputation might otherwise have to manage. And if you concede that a decision to avoid trading with people because they exercise privacy rights is arbitrary rather than reasonable, then let's not stop at abolishing privacy rights, let's go for property rights too; I hereby declare that I will avoid trading with people who own a 5+ digit Market Value item until MindArk transfers their item to me!

 

[San]

I actually appreciate being able to choose whether to make my online status and/or other bits of info public or not. But I can see some who use this for underhanded tactics. It doesn't make me want to give up the feature, though. In specific cases, having someone on your contact list enables you to still see them and draw your conclusions.

Another thing that bothers me though, is that we cannot see who is behind an auction order, while offers are fully transparent. This enables certain manipulation tactics. I don't know if I'm missing something but I can't see a sound reason why this one side in a trade should be able to hide.

 

[The Mind]

Another thing that bothers me though, is that we cannot see who is behind an auction order, while offers are fully transparent. This enables certain manipulation tactics. I don't know if I'm missing something but I can't see a sound reason why this one side in a trade should be able to hide.

So people dont get contacted outside the AH in order to circumvent the order mechanics (mostly for single/expensive/big quantity items). Why paying AH fees to fill it if you can pm and sell it directly.
Just sell 1 item to the order (if stackable) and you will see the "owner". But it wont help you much.... Mafias will outbid and undercut you anyways.

 

[Ranavolana]

Why do you want to know that information Granny? If a player chooses not to let you know, then its none of your business. It has nothing to do with honesty and/or openness.
If you and your friends are unhappy with the lack of info, - then the answer is simple, Don't deal with them.
Other posters here have brought up issues re the AH. But that is not a matter you seemed to be concerned about - you seemed to be focusing on Societies
Why would you want to know this?

 

[mastermesh]

ability to hide name/society makes sense. This game is economy based. Cyberbullying is a real thing and I believe a few years back NBK had a hand or three in some situations that involved that type of thing at one point or another. Think there may have even been hate lists generated to spread the communism to those that may not have been involved with anything first person directly, etc. Not sure if such red/black/block/kill on site lists still are maintained or not, but the fact that they were created in the first place speaks volumes. (Are old school mafias in real life considered old fashioned)

Its getting to the point that if people don't want to be honest and open, then I and friends are seriously considering do we want to trade with them. .

Making another list for no trades?... to encourage those that have had no past history with folks on the list in question to increase hatred/lack of communication/destructive distrust/increase in rumors/drama to spice up the boring old virtual world since there's not enough to watch on Netflix?

Typically, when someone points a finger at another person they are pointing a few back at themselves...

Honestly, it might make more sense to allow more privacy. Currently Mindark frowns on people changing name of avatar, having multile avatars, etc. Ongoing cyberbullying is one reason I think they should reconsider things like that. The fact that there's already so many doing it without any penalty is another reason... boycotts don't work in real life either.

 

[Granny Rowan]

Ok first of all.. re soc names being hidden, I know of at least one soc currently recruiting, yet when a friend tried to contact them to join, they found the soc name does not exist on the society list. So they were unable to place an application and have now gone elsewhere

ability to hide name/society makes sense. This game is economy based. Cyberbullying is a real thing and I believe a few years back NBK had a hand or three in some situations that involved that type of thing at one point or another. Think there may have even been hate lists generated to spread the communism to those that may not have been involved with anything first person directly, etc. Not sure if such red/black/block/kill on site lists still are maintained or not, but the fact that they were created in the first place speaks volumes. (Are old school mafias in real life considered old fashioned)

Here we go again, time to complain about the NBK, a soc you chose to leave many years ago. Firstly the lists you refer to are little more than people who have caused issues and are therefore not wanted in this soc, they have never been KOS lists. Keeping a note of people we prefer to not have in our group is hardly earth-shaking
The lists and any incidents they arose from, pre-date my membership, and I have been here 14 years. So maybe its time you gave up beating on this drum, the relevance to our soc today is zero. Hell I doubt more than a handful of our current members were even here back then

@Ravanola I did not say that players should not be allowed to hide their profile, I did in fact say I totally see the necessity for PVP. I am more kind of wondering where the game is going.. If and I say If we all hide ourselves, and our socs (still unclear how they do that) then how will we communicate and play. EU has always been applauded for being a social game. I did not avoid the AH issue, I simply didn't add it as it did not cross my mind while writing this, It's easy to say, use friends list, but if they are not yet on FL, and are hidden, how do we do that ? It may seem to you that that simply means they don't want friend requests, but trust me if they want warps then they will need to be added to pilots FL, else they cannot be added to GL, (MA removed the old drag and drop from team), so a game where we all set to hidden is likely to become, indeed is already becoming, a much less social space, and I personally find that of concern. If you don't that's cool, as we are all entitled to our own opinions

 

[jetsina]

I most like Omega's reply so far, but I didn't understand the last bit.
On Granny's points, I don't think truth and openness are so much related that they go hand in hand, or that a lack of desire to be open is an indicator of a lack of truthfulness/honesty. It can be, but it certainly doesn't have to be.
Personally, I think that auction orders should have the avatar name included in the same way that offers and bids include them, but I see that as a system level thing of knowing who you are trading with before you accept the deal and find out.
On socs and locations etc., we are possibly close to asking AIs to compile lists of where entire socs are congregated and such matters. Yes, where is the game going, as Granny has just asked? I think there should generally be choice of how to play and what a future soc in UE5 chooses to be like, but secret stuff is bound to exist anyay, inclusing collusion, whether in hidden chat groups etc etc.
Concentrate on positives for a more positive environment is at least my hope, but that may also be nieve. And it doesn't mean that negatives should be ignored or swept under the carpet either; it just suggests an approach/attitude that may make the platform more appealing again.

 

[San]

So people dont get contacted outside the AH in order to circumvent the order mechanics (mostly for single/expensive/big quantity items). Why paying AH fees to fill it if you can pm and sell it directly.

The same thing can happen with offers.

 

[The Mind]

The same thing can happen with offers.

No, its different. When you place a listing you already paid a full fee for it.

mostly for single/expensive/big quantity items

Those can easily reach 50+ ped in fees and you would be able to pay just 1, for the order, as an "advertisement".

 

[San]

No, its different. When you place a listing you already paid a full fee for it.

Only the fee structures are different. You also pay a fee for advertising an order per day. It doesn't matter which way you turn it, any system can and will be cheesed by opportunists. With full transparency you can at least see who does what. As things are now, there are simply other tricks which are possible instead. I can see for example patterns of oscillating orders and offers in certain items (try looking at A101 or F-106) which could be back-and-forth trading to keep market stats at a desired level. Or it might not, but often enough it's looking pretty fishy. This could be either proven or disproven if names could be seen. Even if they used alts, their numbers aren't endless and ring trades have a good chance of getting eventually exposed. We don't know what efforts are made behind the scenes to curb this, since MA does have this data and could act upon it. But as long as these effects are palpable, it doesn't look too credible.

One could, of course, also turn the entire argument around and say, to be fair also offers should be anonymous.

 

[The Mind]

Only the fee structures are different.

You dont understand the difference between 1 ped per day (max of 7 per week or less, till someone reaches you out) and 50 ped for the same time?

As things are now, there are simply other tricks which are possible instead. I can see for example patterns of oscillating orders and offers in certain items (try looking at A101 or F-106) which could be back-and-forth trading to keep market stats at a desired level. Or it might not, but often enough it's looking pretty fishy. This could be either proven or disproven if names could be seen. Even if they used alts, their numbers aren't endless and ring trades have a good chance of getting eventually exposed. We don't know what efforts are made behind the scenes to curb this, since MA does have this data and could act upon it. But as long as these effects are palpable, it doesn't look too credible.

The only reason you dont know it is because you dont trade it.
Go out there, trade those items, it will get clear in few weeks who is who and whats going on. Its very simple, if you actually do it.
And no. Knowing those names changes absolutely nothing. Those people never interact with anyone (outside of their group or alts) and your impact (as an average user, inside or outside of the AH) on their activity will be 0 in any case.

 

[San]

You dont understand the difference between 1 ped per day (max of 7 per week or less, till someone reaches you out) and 50 ped for the same time?



The only reason you dont know it is because you dont trade it.
Go out there, trade those items, it will get clear in few weeks who is who and whats going on. Its very simple, if you actually do it.
And no. Knowing those names changes absolutely nothing. Those people never interact with anyone (outside of their group or alts) and your impact (as an average user, inside or outside of the AH) on their activity will be 0 in any case.

You don't even read. It doesn't matter if it's about 1 or 7 or 50 ped, it's cheating either way if the intent is only to cancel the listing for an outside trade. And no, I don't partake in these shenanigans but I observe the market if I'm interested in either buying an item for regular use or selling one I have. After a while I do get a feel for what's going on and this is exactly the reason for writing the above. Your vehemence I find slightly interesting in this context.

 

[The Mind]

You don't even read. It doesn't matter if it's about 1 or 7 or 50 ped, it's cheating either way if the intent is only to cancel the listing for an outside trade. And no, I don't partake in these shenanigans but I observe the market if I'm interested in either buying an item for regular use or selling one I have. After a while I do get a feel for what's going on and this is exactly the reason for writing the above. Your vehemence I find slightly interesting in this context.

I think its you who dont even read. Lets try this again, shall we?

When you put a listing, you already spent 50 peds. There is no benefit on cancelling it. This loss it already there. And if you contact those people, they will tell you that, as fee is already paid, they prefer the AH to finish/sell, before dealing with you. You can go and try it rn, if you want.

When you put an order, in form of "advertisment", people will contact you in order to save those 50 ped. They dont care what you spent in orders already. Best offer you can get is to split those fees as a benefit for both. Otherwise, there is not a single reason to even talk to you.

The difference between:
1. Name visible on listings: biggest fee (50 ped) is UNavoidable due to users choice.
2. Name visible on orders: biggest fee (50 ped) is avoidable due to users choice.

You cant understand whats going on with the market as a bystanding user. I can get the same info, by looking 5 seconds at a price chart, than you observing it for weeks. Because the only thing you can see, from both POV, are item highs, lows and basic order flow. The battle for those prices is behind the curtain. People will spend 50+ peds, in orders, per item per day, and thousands of peds of inventory, in order to dominate the market (and they all know each other, and they know whos order is where). You cant understand shit if you dont participate in it.

My "vehemence" is due to been one of those people who actually have experience in those "shenanigans", having to argue with someone who "doesnt do" but "knows how to do", as an overincreasing theme of this forum. The hole is much deeper than you think. Go out there. Try it out for yourself. Come back here, and tell me if, knowing all those names now, makes any difference. Or if you see the market the same way you did before.

 

[Ranavolana]

This is an interesting thread as it brings to attention problems with the AH & Orders. A change from the mostly Buying & Selling threads that make up the majority of Forum posts these days.

So grats to you Granny even though it really was not your intention. Actually, I suspect you are trolling and having a laugh. That poor player who read the advertising re joining a Society but could not locate its name on the Society list so was forced to go somewhere else. Never occurred to him to contact the person advertising? Unintentional humor is really the best kind

Whether a player hides their information or not is up to them. I gather what you were saying was that if they do, they would suffer consequences from you and your friends.
And, who could be bothered complaining about NBK, an irrelevant society .

So granny, do everyone a favour - make more silly posts & liven the Forums up

 

[Granny Rowan]

Actually I think you misunderstood, my dislike is not of individuals hiding own profile, or location, as I have already said I can see the need especially for PVP. It was a comment more about MA than individuals, that in an RCE they seem to keep adding more and more ways for people, socs etc to hide, I just feel that is an odd thing to encourage. In regard to the person wanting to join the soc, the only name they had was also set to incog...lol

 

[Ranavolana]

OK Fair enough then. Personally I have nothing to hide - and I cant see the need for people to hide their info - it seems pointless.
Nevertheless a good thread esp re AH & Orders - thou its a bit above my head

 

[jetsina]

Ah, ok. On the MA side, yes I've been dubious about solo instances and those that require completing some longish mission for quite some time. That is one way that MA has reduced 'visibility' of what people can do, in this case towards botting without a care in the world, it seems. That kind of secrecy I think MA should steer away from, or enable anyone to view any areas passively, including those instances... i.e turn off all their interaction abilities...