Info: Unmaxed Journey #2 - A-3 Justifier MK.II Improved

atomicstorm

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Hello everyone. Once again, I completed an unmaxed journey of a weapon (with deep morale support from friends) to L100.

So let's break it down.

This time I started my journey at L82 Hit, L89 Damage. Until approximately February, I did not have any rings of importance.

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The full run from December 1st-May 31st (Mixed weapons)



The detail graph of run



Here you can see where I switched to the IMK2. Also during this time I started doing very long, extended runs.

The monthly trending of the run



Big change once I moved from a maxed M83 (91%TT) to IMK2.

The candlestick trend of the run



You can see where I switched to the IMK2 and also left Calypso. It is the camel toe part of the graph. Once you reach double camel toe, loot goes sky high! That's the magic formula... camel toes.

IMK2 Only Portion of Dec-May



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Couple years ago I had an IMK2 but my level was in the 60s. People have been telling me that I don't know what I am talking about with unmaxed ped leakage (anal leakage anyone?) concept that I have in my formulas. Well, this formula is accurate. See comparison - note that during this time.. my DPP was 3.12 as I had an MK1 scope, MK2 sight and HC204.

Summary of L6X IMK2 Grind Circa 2015



It is very clear the differences. My DPP still 3.1X and thus does not warrant 92%TT. However, I was leaking approximately 60ped an hour according to my formula.

Detail Graph of L6X IMK2 Grind Circa 2015



The candle stick graph version of this detailed chart is straight down. The red arrows indicate -1000 or worse days. You can see that with this unmaxedness that this level of loss is frequent. Compared to only a couple red arrows in the above graphs while being around 90 or better and the much more frequent green arrows.

Nothing really needs to be said here because the graphs speak volumes.

Hypothesis:

  • Being unmaxed is worse than maxed at the same dpp - CONFIRMED
  • Unmaxed weapons can be offset slightly by dpp - CONFIRMED
  • Unmaxed weapons must be avoided at all costs - MIXED

3rd item is mixed because I seemed to be okay with the IMK2 (just like the Mako) as I reached and exceeded 9.0/10. However, under no circumstances should you enhance while unmaxed. While being unmaxed and running 4% Crit (which would be 6% altogether), I would regularly be around 4.2-5.1. That is a significant loss of crit potential and lose any benefits to buffs. Also, crits offset the 10% evades - that is its function. Having low CHA means that I am penalized further because if I go on a big evade streak, I cannot recover. :wise:

Further note, this will be the last unmaxed test/journey. I have proven all that I needed to.
 

Rocket192

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At minimum this should be marked as a point of reference to new players and those who think using unmaxed non-sib is a good idea.
 
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As usual, a very thorough and comprehensive body of work. Nice job my friend, I applaud and appreciate your effort.
 

carle

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Very very nice work.
Im wondering have you built a program for these stats?
Ive got about 800 runs of raw data i wouldnt mind seing in candlestick.
 

Amber Knightley

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Very very nice work.
Im wondering have you built a program for these stats?
Ive got about 800 runs of raw data i wouldnt mind seing in candlestick.
Indeed nice to see! And yes he has a super nice web interface built (on top of AWS?).
There is (was?) a video of it in some post in the mako log thread.

Glad you finally made great with the imk2 as well atomicstorm :)
 

San

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[*]Being unmaxed is worse than maxed at the same dpp - CONFIRMED
Doesn't this mean that the dpp calculation is wrong, not factoring CHA correctly?

Edit: It is probably in the buffs and enhancers then, which amplify only specific effects most prominently related to critical hits. Have to see the whole picture.
 
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M Rufen Power

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Thanks for your efforst atomicstorm!

Now I know how people are getting 90-95% TT returns in 2017!

@grannykillzalot - I hope you are seeing this thread dude... seriously.

If using imk2 sub lv70/80 you need to be camping markup mobs exclusively.
 

atomicstorm

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Doesn't this mean that the dpp calculation is wrong, not factoring CHA correctly?

Edit: It is probably in the buffs and enhancers then, which amplify only specific effects most prominently related to critical hits. Have to see the whole picture.
I can tell you my formula sheet is very accurate as noted on my streams. Here are a couple observations:

  • Crits offset evades to get dpp back in line
  • Low crit periods are offset by higher than average damage or higher than expected hit %

Both are shockingly predictable. The reason why unmaxed is a problem is because of what the weapon's base dpp means to your loot.

Sinply stated: the base dpp of a weapon, irrespective of it is being maxed, is a hunting condition slider. The imk2 is beyond quantity giving you its edge. If i use an imk2 of same dpp on a huon young, for example, i will kill it for aeound 4.2ped (or so). This is what the multiplers are based on. If i use a piron pbr25, whose dpp is 2.6x, it could be around 5.5 or more. It becomes a condition slider and would potentially be benefitical in high markup environments but the variance is much, much worse.

While i havent pinned it down with my other program, it appears buffs also move this slider. I am yet to confirm it.

Now with all that being said, that is your base dpp. It is constant whether unmaxed or not. The reason wht the unmaxed part is bad is because unmaxed has a suppressive/downward effect on you... this is what i refer to as leakage.

Let us say I shoot 1000 huon young for 4300ped. If i am maxed or not, the system would only give me credit for the 4300ped. If i am unmaxed, it could be 5000ped. This means my run better be pretty damn lucky because i am leaking 700ped during this time.

I estimated in my formula that i lost almost 8% of my TT when i was in the 60s and it manifested itself in my chart.
 
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atomicstorm

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Very very nice work.
Im wondering have you built a program for these stats?
Ive got about 800 runs of raw data i wouldnt mind seing in candlestick.
I built this. Took a long time. Only available to me, for now. I have been toying with the idea to make it a subscription service for a while now but it would take time to do and we already have dozens of log tools and i dont know if folks would care for it.
 

atomicstorm

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For some of the haters, i did about 800ped an hour. So, during this time, i played over 1,000 hours for 102%. I am definitely not the reason for you having bad returns. You are (most likely). Learn about your activities, get better. Stop going to the scam and conspiracy cop out.
 
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DavinFelth

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Awesome info - thanks for sharing in all your hard work.

Now can you help me get 95% returns without investing over 1 thousand USD on a UL weapon?? LOL.. but seriously
I'd be so happy with 95-99 return.
 

Fifth

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That's the magic formula... camel toes.
Indeed! :wtg:

Interesting... according to my theory you'll have a long bad loot streak inside 12 months (less than 6 months most likely).
Not that I want it to happen, absolutely not. For such a brilliant work you surely deserve good loot for the next 10 years. WTG!
 

Rocket192

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Awesome info - thanks for sharing in all your hard work.

Now can you help me get 95% returns without investing over 1 thousand USD on a UL weapon?? LOL.. but seriously
I'd be so happy with 95-99 return.
Use L guns and UL amp... put the remainder into rings/buffs. 95% is easy to get
 
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i dont know why he wants 95% though. i havent seen a single mob giving more than 5% MU steadily over time. apart from maybe wave exploiting on caperons.
 

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Let us say I shoot 1000 huon young for 4300ped. If i am maxed or not, the system would only give me credit for the 4300ped. If i am unmaxed, it could be 5000ped. This means my run better be pretty damn lucky because i am leaking 700ped during this time.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying the system is only going to pay out so much ped for so much health/damage and that if you have bad eco it will cost you more for the same loot? If so, no offense, but we've known that for a while. Or do you mean something else?
 

San

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Thank you very much for expounding. With inaccurate dpp calculation I meant, is it maybe our Entropedia missing something. But I get it's in the side effects related to reduced ha/cha.

Sinply stated: the base dpp of a weapon, irrespective of it is being maxed, is a hunting condition slider.
I would take home from this that highly efficient weapons are not the greatest winners in events where the sheer number and size of globals count, such as yours or ND's Champions League (leaving unique Terminator with its brute force out of the picture). Events the type of MM or GR where only dps drives your chances up are not affected by this. Your note about not getting big hofs with IMK2 or Mako would underline this also. They are otoh the tools to get if grinding is your pastime without the need to get motivated by big and many swirls. Hope I didn't miss something again. The purpose for asking these questions is development of a vision.

Neither extreme is for the masses, since a very limited number of these items exists. So what is there for the average Joe to hope for? Just like in real life - acquire the mindset to break out of this category, or keep toiling and entertain yourself by looking up to others. At least in VR you don't need extraordinary physique, talent, or whichever rare blessings to do it.

Now, all this reminds me of... https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasada163199.html
 

atomicstorm

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying the system is only going to pay out so much ped for so much health/damage and that if you have bad eco it will cost you more for the same loot? If so, no offense, but we've known that for a while. Or do you mean something else?
Only part of the equation. Low DPP can cause you get bigger HOFs since the average loot per mob changes (gets bigger with lower dpp) like a slider. You only comment on half of my statement.

Thank you very much for expounding. With inaccurate dpp calculation I meant, is it maybe our Entropedia missing something. But I get it's in the side effects related to reduced ha/cha.


I would take home from this that highly efficient weapons are not the greatest winners in events where the sheer number and size of globals count, such as yours or ND's Champions League (leaving unique Terminator with its brute force out of the picture). Events the type of MM or GR where only dps drives your chances up are not affected by this. Your note about not getting big hofs with IMK2 or Mako would underline this also. They are otoh the tools to get if grinding is your pastime without the need to get motivated by big and many swirls. Hope I didn't miss something again. The purpose for asking these questions is development of a vision.

Neither extreme is for the masses, since a very limited number of these items exists. So what is there for the average Joe to hope for? Just like in real life - acquire the mindset to break out of this category, or keep toiling and entertain yourself by looking up to others. At least in VR you don't need extraordinary physique, talent, or whichever rare blessings to do it.

Now, all this reminds me of... https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasada163199.html
Yea. If I shoot a mob and my average loot with 3.44dpp is 4.3ped, then every time i get the common 10x multiplier, it will just be 42-45ped and never global. But the guy shooting 2.8dpp, his average loot might be 5.3ped and those 10x will result in globals - but it will cost him more to get there. But if there is amazing markup (think event points), then it might be worth it to run more on condition than quantity.
 

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If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that a dpp of x on an unmaxed weapon will produce worse long-term returns than a dpp of x on a maxed weapon. Am I right?

If so, I'm not clear what it is in your data that leads you to that conclusion. I think you might be basing this on a theoretical expected return for a given dpp. Does that come from your previous tests? If so then I think we need to take into account the overall increase in dpp across the whole population. I don't think that dpp x gives the same return that dpp x did 3 years ago, using the same maxed weapon.

I may have misunderstood what you're saying or missed something in your data or analysis though.
 

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If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that a dpp of x on an unmaxed weapon will produce worse long-term returns than a dpp of x on a maxed weapon. Am I right?

If so, I'm not clear what it is in your data that leads you to that conclusion. I think you might be basing this on a theoretical expected return for a given dpp. Does that come from your previous tests? If so then I think we need to take into account the overall increase in dpp across the whole population. I don't think that dpp x gives the same return that dpp x did 3 years ago, using the same maxed weapon.

I may have misunderstood what you're saying or missed something in your data or analysis though.
Hes saying that the DPP formula is flawed since it doesnt calculates crits correctly for unmaxed nonsibs. I perfectly agree.

Edit: I assume thats a part of his point, if not then thats what I think :D
 

carle

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Hes saying that the DPP formula is flawed since it doesnt calculates crits correctly for unmaxed nonsibs. I perfectly agree.

Edit: I assume thats a part of his point, if not then thats what I think :D
Yea this is prolly what he means and ive always avoided none maxed sib even if the entropedia dpp said it would be better, but a "miss" is always 100% loss.
 

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Here you can see where I switched to the IMK2. Also during this time I started doing very long, extended runs.

Elaborate very long extended runs? 10 hour hunting average a day etc? =D
 

atomicstorm

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Here you can see where I switched to the IMK2. Also during this time I started doing very long, extended runs.

Elaborate very long extended runs? 10 hour hunting average a day etc? =D
2 amp minimum. Roughly 5 hours.
 

atomicstorm

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Hes saying that the DPP formula is flawed since it doesnt calculates crits correctly for unmaxed nonsibs. I perfectly agree.

Edit: I assume thats a part of his point, if not then thats what I think :D
Yes. This can be seen in my streams. In many cases i should have 6% crit. You can see not only do I not get that but i am way off. My DPP is still calculated correctly but loss of crit has big consequences.
 

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Ehm so you say dpp is like a condition slider like in crafting?
Then in the long run with returns, does it really matter if i use 2.9dpp or 2.5dpp? In the end i should get the same return if i understand you correctly.
 

M Rufen Power

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Ehm so you say dpp is like a condition slider like in crafting?
Then in the long run with returns, does it really matter if i use 2.9dpp or 2.5dpp? In the end i should get the same return if i understand you correctly.
Do you want to save money or just pay any tariff?
 

Mac

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Do you want to save money or just pay any tariff?

The way I understood it, and I may be totally wrong since I am not the sharpest tack in the box, but referencing dpp is not like a tarrif, the tarrif is related to leakage from shooting unmaxed weapon.

The dpp being more like a condition slider means that the amplitude of the loot frequency is more pronounced with a lower dpp. High dpp or low dpp you will eventually end up in the same tt place, but you would need a bigger bank roll to handle the higher ups and downs of a lower dpp, where you supposedly would not have such highs or lows with a higher dpp.

Did I get that right?
 

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The way I understood it, and I may be totally wrong since I am not the sharpest tack in the box, but referencing dpp is not like a tarrif, the tarrif is related to leakage from shooting unmaxed weapon.

The dpp being more like a condition slider means that the amplitude of the loot frequency is more pronounced with a lower dpp. High dpp or low dpp you will eventually end up in the same tt place, but you would need a bigger bank roll to handle the higher ups and downs of a lower dpp, where you supposedly would not have such highs or lows with a higher dpp.

Did I get that right?
As I read it that's what $5 says. Might not be exactly the same thing as what he thinks thou... ;)

There's this old problem with the peds dished out to the (shared) lootpool.
Some people used to think this lootpool wasn't shared, it was personal and eventually you got it all back again. Happy end.
Then the evil greedy MA stepped in declaring there's no such thing. There's no personal lootpool they say. All dreams shattered, no happy ending.

Suppose MA didn't lie when they said there's no personal loot pool. Most likely they didn't. The truth usually isn't pretty...
OK but if so, what does it mean exactly? Does it mean when you lost big all those peds went to collective "prize pool", shared with everybody else? And next day you come back and collect what's left? Nobody knows how this works exactly. Maybe it's better if we don't know. :)
 

Mac

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As I read it that's what $5 says. Might not be exactly the same thing as what he thinks thou... ;)

There's this old problem with the peds dished out to the (shared) lootpool.
Some people used to think this lootpool wasn't shared, it was personal and eventually you got it all back again. Happy end.
Then the evil greedy MA stepped in declaring there's no such thing. There's no personal lootpool they say. All dreams shattered, no happy ending.

Suppose MA didn't lie when they said there's no personal loot pool. Most likely they didn't. The truth usually isn't pretty...
OK but if so, what does it mean exactly? Does it mean when you lost big all those peds went to collective "prize pool", shared with everybody else? And next day you come back and collect what's left? Nobody knows how this works exactly. Maybe it's better if we don't know. :)

I assume no matter what I do, whatever I depo and use to shoot my gun, drop bombs, or craft, etc. is going to eventually go to everyone else, I will get some green lines as a consolation prize :wtg:

You're welcome.
 

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I assume no matter what I do, whatever I depo and use to shoot my gun, drop bombs, or craft, etc. is going to eventually go to everyone else, I will get some green lines as a consolation prize :wtg:

You're welcome.
Well um, the consolation prize might be a little bit better in your case. If the lootppol works as I think it works you might not share as much with others now as you're using a high dpp weapon. Then again, I might be wrong. :)
 

Rocket192

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OK but if so, what does it mean exactly? Does it mean when you lost big all those peds went to collective "prize pool", shared with everybody else? And next day you come back and collect what's left?
I mean... yeah.

An uber once said "you only lose when you stop shooting."
 
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