Venture's Space Mining Thread

[Venture Bros]

I think space mining is broken. I think the min multiplier for asteroids is too low. Here I will share each and every asteroid I pop to show you what I mean.

I am using the website inventory tracker, resetting before each asteroid, so there is no confusion or debate.
I am tagging with the Orion Major, the best mining laser, and applying the most possible cracking debuff in game to the asteroid. The asteroids I am shooting could not be shot in any way more efficient.

 

[Venture Bros]

Run 1 Summary Table​

Location	Total Cost (PED)	Total Loot (PED)	Net Change (PED)	Return %
Asteroid 1	112.60	47.18	-65.42	41.90%
Asteroid 2	214.33	101.54	-112.79	47.38%
Asteroid 3	154.50	78.77	-75.73	50.98%
Asteroid 4	299.58	317.60	+18.02	106.02%
TOTALS	781.01	545.09	-235.92	69.79%

---

Overall Totals for Run 1​

• Total Spent: 781.01 PED
• Total Looted: 545.09 PED
• Total Net Loss: -235.92 PED
• Total Return Percentage: 69.79%

 

[Venture Bros]

Run 1: Asteroid 1: 41.9%.

Changes Summary​

PED Card0.00 PED
Inventory Value-65.42 PED
Total Value Change-65.42 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Blazar Fragment	+1
Explosive Projectiles	-12426	-1.24 PED
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.06 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-5.57 PED
Scottium Stone	+1	+0.12 PED
Shrapnel	+76190	+7.62 PED
Tailings	+394458	+39.44 PED
Weapon Cells	-1057203	-105.73 PED
8 item types with changes

Run 1: Asteroid 2: 47.38%.

Changes Summary​

PED Card0.00 PED
Inventory Value-112.79 PED
Total Value Change-112.79 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Explosive Projectiles	-4142	-0.42 PED
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.03 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-10.70 PED
Scottium Stone	+1	+0.13 PED
Shrapnel	+270458	+27.04 PED
Tailings	+743697	+74.37 PED
Weapon Cells	-2031885	-203.18 PED
7 item types with changes

Run 1 asteroid 3: 50.98%.​

Changes Summary​

PED Card0.00 PED
Inventory Value-75.73 PED
Total Value Change-75.73 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Blazar Fragment	+3
Cobalt Stone	+79	+15.80 PED
Explosive Projectiles	-4142	-0.42 PED
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.02 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-7.70 PED
Scottium Stone	+1	+0.13 PED
Shrapnel	+158157	+15.82 PED
Tailings	+470206	+47.02 PED
Weapon Cells	-1463580	-146.36 PED
9 item types with changes

Run 1 Asteroid 4: 106.015

Changes Summary​

PED Card0.00 PED
Inventory Value+21.02 PED
Total Value Change+21.02 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Blazar Fragment	+2
Explosive Projectiles	-4142	-0.41 PED
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.02 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-14.78 PED
Scottium Stone	+105	+13.12 PED
Shrapnel	+1114610	+111.46 PED
Tailings	+1930228	+193.02 PED
Weapon Cells	-2805714	-280.57 PED
8 item types with changes

 

[Alina]

whats your looter ?

 

[Venture Bros]

better than yours, not that it matters, as shared loot mobs don't take looter into factor and all asteroids are shared loot.

Also even if looter accounted for 20% of loot, and I have 0 looter, my results are still too low.

 

[Msturlese]

how many loot events?
i mean if there are 1 ped asteroids distribution of returns should converge to 98% fast
a 100 ped asteroid could be like a RDI boss and take say 2000 3000 loot event before stabilizing
it is same function also in hunting.. some short run have insane variance and weird returns

 

[Venture Bros]

how many loot events?
i mean if there are 1 ped asteroids distribution of returns should converge to 98% fast
a 100 ped asteroid could be like a RDI boss and take say 2000 3000 loot event before stabilizing
it is same function also in hunting.. some short run have insane variance and weird returns

At time of your post 4, currently working on 5.

It's not about how many loot events, my issue is the average single 1 time loot... is way too low. It shouldn't be possible to loot that low.
But I will share info over time, you do understand these take like 1 hour+ each to kill right? The M-type Asteroid XVIII I am shooting atm will take me 2-3 hours.

My current run today wasn't too bad, but I will share more. Some loots are 20% or less and it's not acceptable.

 

[Ferial]

as shared loot mobs don't take looter into factor and all asteroids are shared loot.

To officially dispell some myths, there is nothing special/different about shared loot creatures - there is no 95% cap or anything of that sort.

Just fyi

 

[Venture Bros]

Yea then why did cyrene change their solo instances from shared loot to non shared loot when all the ubers cried about it affecting their returns?

People who hunt far more than you and me, and know far more than you or me, know that shared loot doesn't use looter. Socrates doesn't know the entire codebase, that's the issue, no one at MA does. UE5 will resolve this. Nor do I think there is some 'cap' or anything of that sort. I know shared loot doesn't use looter, which is a benefit btw.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

The M-type Asteroid XVIII I am shooting atm will take me 2-3 hours.

And then people say planet size mining is boring

 

[UnaAlconbury]

Yea then why did cyrene change their solo instances from shared loot to non shared loot when all the ubers cried about it affecting their returns?

People who hunt far more than you and me, and know far more than you or me, know that shared loot doesn't use looter. Socrates doesn't know the entire codebase, that's the issue, no one at MA does. UE5 will resolve this. Nor do I think there is some 'cap' or anything of that sort. I know shared loot doesn't use looter, which is a benefit btw.

Can people stop relying so much on what so called "ubers" say? All they did was cycled/chipped/invested more than the average Joe. Most of them buy into the same silly tinfoil hat theories everyone else does, the only difference is they have a lot of skill points. MA refuted the theory already and studies of isolating min multis show that looter affects shared loot exactly like it affects non-shared as well.

As for your sample of 4 loot events, sure, when the kill cost is this high one could argue the multiplier range should be smaller and the lowest multiplier set higher than this, but it's still the tiniest of tiny samples with 4 events. M-asteroids are essentially really high-stakes gambling. I am all for lower volatility in general though, so in essence I agree with what you are trying to argue for with this thread.

 

[jetsina]

A couple of points:
thanks for providing the info.
With no regen, the costs for the same asteroid lvl should be very close to the same for each one. Missed shots and variance won't make much diff over the course of an hour. What lvls have you tackled pls?

Apart from some things which will be obvious to all, I note that your turnover using a V4 level weap is very roughly only 150 peds? per hour of just sitting there on one asteroid?
That is pretty low compared to hunting medium mobs in a reasonable spawn, although may be comparable to planet mining, even with amps.

Also, I really can add space mining to the list of almost fully afk gameplay then. If those M-class are also shared loot (but in lootable pvp), then I guess it doesn't matter too much to be shot down even, as long as you return to your comp before the 'kill' and take each loot back to storage and start again fresh each asteroid.
That will also lower turnover speeds.
There was I thinking that 2-3 mins per roid was bad enough on baby asteroids and tt weap, but going big is pretty much go anywhere you like at home, do the washing, take the dog for a walk, whatever!

Is the next Caly mob going to be a no regen no attack blob with hours' worth of killtime? The mob to spend a night's sleep on?

Edit: that is indeed very high stakes (don't want to use the g word, but essentially it is staking a lot on each event).
I believe asteroids have their own HOF lists, but not really bothered enough to have stored this in my memory. If so, is this because MA expect much higher hofs over time that would obliterate the original hof entries on the main board? 200k and more for the lucky ones?

 

[Alina]

better than yours, not that it matters, as shared loot mobs don't take looter into factor and all asteroids are shared loot.

Also even if looter accounted for 20% of loot, and I have 0 looter, my results are still too low.

also im only 42.8 looter, again, whats yours ?

 

[Venture Bros]

Can people stop relying so much on what so called "ubers" say? All they did was cycled/chipped/invested more than the average Joe. Most of them buy into the same silly tinfoil hat theories everyone else does, the only difference is they have a lot of skill points. MA refuted the theory already and studies of isolating min multis show that looter affects shared loot exactly like it affects non-shared as well.

As for your sample of 4 loot events, sure, when the kill cost is this high one could argue the multiplier range should be smaller and the lowest multiplier set higher than this, but it's still the tiniest of tiny samples with 4 events. M-asteroids are essentially really high-stakes gambling. I am all for lower volatility in general though, so in essence I agree with what you are trying to argue for with this thread.

It’s almost like you guys are purposefully ignoring that this is just the start of a log, there will be more than the 4 loots. They take time…

Also everyone and their mom knows shared loot mobs ignore looter level, that’s not what this thread is about you can debate that elsewhere.

 

[Venture Bros]

A couple of points:
thanks for providing the info.
With no regen, the costs for the same asteroid lvl should be very close to the same for each one. Missed shots and variance won't make much diff over the course of an hour. What lvls have you tackled pls?

Apart from some things which will be obvious to all, I note that your turnover using a V4 level weap is very roughly only 150 peds? per hour of just sitting there on one asteroid?
That is pretty low compared to hunting medium mobs in a reasonable spawn, although may be comparable to planet mining, even with amps.

Also, I really can add space mining to the list of almost fully afk gameplay then. If those M-class are also shared loot (but in lootable pvp), then I guess it doesn't matter too much to be shot down even, as long as you return to your comp before the 'kill' and take each loot back to storage and start again fresh each asteroid.
That will also lower turnover speeds.
There was I thinking that 2-3 mins per roid was bad enough on baby asteroids and tt weap, but going big is pretty much go anywhere you like at home, do the washing, take the dog for a walk, whatever!

Is the next Caly mob going to be a no regen no attack blob with hours' worth of killtime? The mob to spend a night's sleep on?

Edit: that is indeed very high stakes (don't want to use the g word, but essentially it is staking a lot on each event).
I believe asteroids have their own HOF lists, but not really bothered enough to have stored this in my memory. If so, is this because MA expect much higher hofs over time that would obliterate the original hof entries on the main board? 200k and more for the lucky ones?

The variance should be lower, it’s way too much of gambling I agree

 

[Nanashana]

I 100% averaged much higher than this when also hunting the big M-XVIII+ sized asteroids. The main issue is the presence of the 0.2-0.5x multipliers.

If you have 10 loot events you are going to be seeing results from a 20% to a 20k% return, yes it sucks that the time to kill and size and throughput can make dry periods really really pronounced and painful, I had multiple evenings with returns that looked like yours, and more evenings too when I ended multiple thousands of ped in the green.

But anyone seriously considering long term farming of these huge asteroids should be planning around a 200k+ bankroll at least and thousands of kills with the way the way multipliers work today, it's no different from smuggler mechs or solo Gorgon farming levels of volatility.

 

[Venture Bros]

My complaint is these individually small return shouldn’t be possible. I don’t care about the long term results, the individual results shouldn’t be able to be so low.

Am I that bad at making my point in the OP?

 

[Nanashana]

My complaint is these individually small return shouldn’t be possible. I don’t care about the long term results, the individual results shouldn’t be able to be so low.

Am I that bad at making my point in the OP?

Yeah the way that boss loot works generally is that they clamp the loot multipliers i.e. 0.2x to 2000x turns to 0.5x to 800x for bosses.

The range is too big given their hp

 

[Ferial]

My complaint is these individually small return shouldn’t be possible. I don’t care about the long term results, the individual results shouldn’t be able to be so low.

Am I that bad at making my point in the OP?

If this is the point you are trying to make, then yes.

If this is the point you are trying to make, leave the *average* out of it. What you are saying is that the min multiplier for asteroids is too low.

I will not argue this because that would be a matter of preference. The way I see this system as it is, currently is just gambling. This is not something that you can or probably even should grind (because of the bankroll required to do so)

 

[Venture Bros]

If this is the point you are trying to make, then yes.

If this is the point you are trying to make, leave the *average* out of it. What you are saying is that the min multiplier for asteroids is too low.

I will not argue this because that would be a matter of preference. The way I see this system as it is, currently is just gambling. This is not something that you can or probably even should grind (because of the bankroll required to do so)

That's the issue, it is 100% gambling, and it should not be gambling. I will edit the post to use your suggested language. thanks

 

[jetsina]

I take the word gambling as including entrepreneurship in business and most investments, so yes, this is also gambling and much closer to classic games of risk and reward.
However, when you say this is 100% gambling, it isn't any different from low stakes mobs; it is just the stake that is different.
High stakes can quickly make losses painful, but the game itself and the odds might be exactly the same.
Nana says above that on boss mobs the range is actually reeled in a bit. This is what we could argue for in space mining, but at most 'clubs' you can also choose which table to play at (= the table minimum stake).

 

[Venture Bros]

I take the word gambling as including entrepreneurship in business and most investments, so yes, this is also gambling and much closer to classic games of risk and reward.
However, when you say this is 100% gambling, it isn't any different from low stakes mobs; it is just the stake that is different.
High stakes can quickly make losses painful, but the game itself and the odds might be exactly the same.
Nana says above that on boss mobs the range is actually reeled in a bit. This is what we could argue for in space mining, but at most 'clubs' you can also choose which table to play at (= the table minimum stake).

I don’t recall getting such low minimum loot percentage on any other creature in game, this constantly. It wasn’t like this a few months ago for these big asteroids either

 

[A-Bomb]

I don’t recall getting such low minimum loot percentage on any other creature in game, this constantly. It wasn’t like this a few months ago for these big asteroids either

I mean, getting ~20% back on kills hunting is nothing out of the ordinary?

 

[bicckuni]

i saw you hiting a 2k asteroid recently

 

[Venture Bros]

Yea the website tracker bugged out on that one since I did half the night before. It was only about 120% returns I think. When I went back to it after the global to check the results it said it wasn't even tracking...

 

[Venture Bros]

I reloaded my browser and now it has the old tracking data with the 2k ped hof on it and a few roids after, here is todays results all in 1.

Run 2, Asteroid 1,2,3 combo​

Changes Summary​

Inventory Value+385.71 PED
Total Value Change+385.71 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Blazar Fragment	+201
Cobalt Stone	+35	+7.00 PED
Explosive Projectiles	-53846	-5.39 PED
Gold Stone	+17	+17.00 PED
Howling Mine Construction Token	+1
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.29 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-78.96 PED
Narcanisum Stone	+1835	+146.80 PED
Recycling Scrip	+5	+0.05 PED
Scottium Stone	+144	+18.00 PED
Shrapnel	-2143641	-214.36 PED
Tailings	+5363547	+536.35 PED
Universal Ammo	+13496620	+1,349.66 PED
Weapon Cells	-10381418	-1038.14 PED

Run 2: asteroid 4
tt return: 37.34%.

Changes Summary​

Inventory Value-68.87 PED
Total Value Change-68.87 PED

Name	Quantity	Value
Explosive Projectiles	-4142	-0.41 PED
IMO Orion Major (L)		-0.02 PED
Kismet Chamrosh V4 (L)		-5.48 PED
Nova Fragment	+50
Recycling Scrip	+1
Shrapnel	+61138	+6.12 PED
Tailings	+349241	+34.92 PED
Universal Ammo	-1040076	-104.01 PED
8 item types with changes

 

[jetsina]

I don’t recall getting such low minimum loot percentage on any other creature in game, this constantly.

I scan my screen a bit like an instrument panel, and watch my shots left go down and then my loot add itself to the total in the loot window. It was harder to see in the old days before we had this info on screen, so I looked more slowly and carefully per mob back then, but the ranges have stayed the same. The range on almost everything that just takes 5,6 or 7 shots usually is from 20%-120% on non-multis.
The first multi used to be at 3.5x lower limit, but some mobs now have 2x or so.
Anyway, if I know a mob has only cost me a ped to kill, it's quite clear that my loot sometimes only goes up in the 20s pecs, or a 5 pedder cost that only gets me a shaving above a ped returned.
If it's one-shot killing at 15 pecs (yes I overkill 20hp quite a bit sometimes), then it's also clear if I get 3.x pecs back, and I can do that at a pretty fast rate, so I might mix it up by watching my 10-shot returns or whatever (might include a failed shot or two, but if the 10th lands a hit then loot is still loot, regardless of 10 or only 8 mobs). On a poor bunch that can also be only 30% over those 8-10 mobs, not commonly, but perfectly possible.
It's very low stakes, but like dice rolls between 1 and 6, except I see 3-18 pecs added to the loot total per mob, so 45 pecs for 10 shots or so is 30%, the equivalent of throwing 1s, 2s and 3s over ten rolls.
Another way of watching is to have loot notification on in chat, but is better for quick scanning if only a mat or two plus shrap each time.

Personally I got the impression that the lowest asteroids were giving me more low range non-multis, not an even distribution of non-multis (loot notification usually on for roids, by the way). Getting a 3x-ish multi thus didn't boost me from 70% up a bit, but merely got me to into the 60s. I know I need 5x, 10x multis and beyond before trying to estimate any longer term returns, but as I was getting too far behind, I reckon the ranges have been fiddled with.

Crafting, by the way, has ranges within the non-successes that can be clearly seen as grouped. You can easily take 1k clicks and sort by returns and see which percentage groups exist there.