Weapon Economy Enhancers

tamlin

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Weapon Economy Enhancers should, as their name clearly states, improve economy (for a tiered up weapon). Let us dive a little deeper into this cesspool MA have created, to see just how much "economy" MindArk is trying to defraud its customers of.

Assumptions about Weapon Economy Enhancers:
Cost incl. MU: 6 PED each. Note that this is below the cheapest existing on auction at the time of this writing. The cheapest eco enhancer 1 costs 10 PED each!
Lifespan: 1841 shots. A number taken from a post back in 2010.
Effect: 1.08% less weapon decay, 1.08% less ammo used. (from a post 2010)

For a weapon economy enhancer to just break even in cost v. savings when using it, 6 PED would have to be saved in 1841 shot, which @ 1.08% effect means each shot will have to cost approx 30,18 PEC ammo+decay.

According to entropedia, among laser weapons there are exactly two weapons fitting this criteria:
- Isis LR66(L) (33,937 PEC/shot)
- Fire Forge DAR 9300 Modified (37 PEC/shot)

Only two out of 290 laser weapons could potentially benefit from usage of the "eco enhancers". Out of those two, there is only one that is within reach for a high-skilled customer, and exactly zero that are within reach for the average customer (no, you that have skills to use LR66 is not even close to "average customer", you passed that stage long ago).


Let's look at the BLP side. Here it at first glance becomes a little more favorable for MindArk. Out of 209 BLP weapons, there are seven that are handheld and fit the criteria. As one is a unique weapon, that leaves six. Out of those six, only three could potentially be used by non-ubers:
- Isis BL1800 (35.128 PEC/shot)
- Isis BL1600 (L) (34.0 PEC/shot)
- GeoTrek H1051 Kisf (L) (33.461 PEC/shot)

Out of those 3, exactly zero is within reach for an average customer. They require skill of lvl 73-82 just got get into SIB.

So zero weapons out of approx 500 could benefit from eco enhancers for average or even mid-level players.

If we instead use real-world data and look at the absolutely cheapest enhancer available @ auction for 10 PED, the weapons would have to cost over 50 PEC/shot (cost without amp) before it would be even possible to break even on them.


But to not cut this thought experiment short by letting observable reality get in our way, let's assume you are lvl 77 BLP and use BL 1600 (L). To be extra kind to MindArk here, I explicitly selected an (L) weapon that you don't have to pay money to tier up. Unfortunately, it obviously can't be used by the majority of MindArk's customers, and due to being (L) it retains no value.

At 34 PEC/use, you save 0,3672 PEC each shot, or 676 PEC per 1841 shots.
As the enhancer breaks after 1841 shots, and they cost 6 PED each, the actual savings would be 76 PEC. Oh, and the weapon would have lost 163.90 of it's tt (max is 597).


76 PEC saved each 619 PED used. Let that sink in for a while.

If we instead use the observed 10 PED/enhancer, you would lose 3.23 PED more each 619 PED. Great!


This is on one of the very few laser and BLP weapons that Weapon Economy Enhancers could even be "eco" on, if we don't let reality of actual enhancer cost get in the way.

On every other weapon in existence in the BLP and laser category, with a cost/use of less than 30.18 PEC/use, with the current system and the presented assumption, the "Economy Enhancers" would be anything but economical. They could in fact rather be considered plain fraud, as they perform the exactly opposite of what their name states they are intended to do.

For fun, let's see what an eco enhancer does to a tt-pistol:
Cost of one enhancer: 6 PED.
Cost of 1841 shots: 18.57 PED
Saved ammo+decay cost due to enhancer: 20 PEC
Lost due to enhancer breakage: 5.8 PED.

With the enhancer @ 6 PED, the weapon becomes ~30% more expensive to use.

If we calculate with (impossible to reach) tt-value of the enhancer (1 PED), you would still lose 80 PEC by using it.

So what would the lifespan have to be, at 1.08% cost reduction/use, for such an enhancer to perform its stated purpose on a tt-pistol? At tt cost for one enhancer, it would have to last 9077 shots. But that's only if you could acquire them for their tt-value. As everyone, including MindArk, knows this to be an impossibility impossibility as they are crafted... I don't know.

At an enhancer cost of 10 PED each, it would have to last over 90 thousand shots, just to reach break even.


MindArk, does you company have a person man enough to admit you completely messed this up when you introduced Weapon Economy Enhancers, or was this intentional?

With your history of public display of sub-par competence, and for your benefit I will not assume malice, I'd have to assume you indeed messed up again. But then, are you not almost required to fix this? Why haven't you done this?

The only way I can see for you, MindArk, to remedy this situation is to:
1. State clearly the effect in percent of the so-called "economy enhancers".
2. Stop your gamling and fraudulent "random breakage" mumbo-jumbo, and instead make these things (L), which they are anyway, with a clear statement of number of uses left (just like an (L) BP) or the remaining value of them (like any (L) item).
3. Fire the person that approved of current economy enhancers design and implementation on grounds of gross negligence and incompetence.
4. Get back to the drawing board, to make sure these enhancers actually perform what their title states, even for the lowly tt-pistol or an S30 vs. a calculated reasonable cost - including markup - for the enhancer. Make the enhancer decay as function of weapon base usage cost.

If you leave just one single weapon to have worse economy with Weapon Economy Enhancer than without, I would continue to consider this the fraud I think it currently is.


Comments? Flames? Ferrari?
 

Ardorj

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First I have to admit that I have no experience and very little knowledge of enhancers.
Question is this : won't Weapon Economy Enhancers be more effective when you have also other enhacers on your weapon? Or does that have nothing to do with the overal cost of using the weapon?
And what about Melee Weapons? They aren't exactly known to be economy-friendly. Will they not benefit from Economy Enhancers?

:smash::scratch::smash:
 

siremi

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An what about using an L weapon with 170% markup? using eco enhancers helps you save the extra 70% markup.
 

Harmony.

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Nothing to remedy here....
Yes the level 1 enhancers are 1000%, the other levels are cheaper.
They sell for 1000% so they are worth 1000% to some people.
 

TheLastKnight

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Have you tried your formula on UL non SIB guns, you know, the ones that take lvl 100 to max? I think that's where you need to focus all the math.
 

xian

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I agree with op and yet you can expand it to almost all enhancers.
With at is is designed, you need a weapon/tools/.. what does a shitload of damage/heal/... with the respective decay/cost/xxx regardless the reload.

Enhancer were a strong addition unless a fucker at MA said "more money".:laugh:

At first it seems they were designed with empty slot enhancer = 1 PEC but someone thought let's make it 1 PED without increasing max use and decreasing crafting cost..
 

tamlin

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Question is this : won't Weapon Economy Enhancers be more effective when you have also other enhacers on your weapon?
Not as far as we know. The eco enhancers were found to lower decay and ammo usage based on the weapons base values by around 1.08%-1.10%. That's about it.

Or does that have nothing to do with the overal cost of using the weapon?
Yes, other enhancers makes it more expensive to use weapons. Damage Enhancers f.ex. increases cost by 10%.

And what about Melee Weapons? They aren't exactly known to be economy-friendly. Will they not benefit from Economy Enhancers?
If they do, it'd be by the same lousy 1.08%-1.10%.
 

tamlin

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An what about using an L weapon with 170% markup? using eco enhancers helps you save the extra 70% markup.
With eco enhancer 1 costing 10 PED in reality, it requires your weapon+ammo (amp not included) to induce a cost of 50 PEC/use with MU. At 170%, weapon decay would have to be more than 29,59 PEC/use, putting us basically back at the very limited (for the vast majority of customers non-existent) set of weapons.
 

tamlin

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Have you tried your formula on UL non SIB guns, you know, the ones that take lvl 100 to max? I think that's where you need to focus all the math.
The formula remains the same, with the added penalty that you now have to:
1. Account for the additional cost of tiering the weapon. If it costs 1000 PED to tier a weapon, and you can save 1 PED ammo+decay for every 600-800 PED used, you would have to cycle 600-800 thousand PED just to reach break-even - i.e. before the economy enhancer does indeed provide the function of its name .
2. Realize you limit the number of potential users to the very small subset that are at least at level 70, but preferably level 100 or above.

I honestly don't see the benefit in focusing the math at gear requiring skills at a level the vast majority of customers could never in their wildest fantasies reach.
 

Jimmy B

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I agree Weapon Economy Enhancers are pretty much useless at the moment.

I don't see any con from MA though. The only reason they are useless is their markup. They do exactly what they say on the tin, they reduce the ammo burn and weapon decay, but the markup makes them worthless. So don't pay the markup. Then either the crafters will drop their prices, or the crafters will stop crafting them and they'll either disappear from the game or MA will make the crafting ingredients drop more.

(PS. I might be wrong but I thought they adjusted enhancers such that they last longer on low cost per use weapons than on big weapons?)

I agree with op and yet you can expand it to almost all enhancers.

You really can't. Damage Enhancers, Finder enhancers, Fap Economy enhancers, Armour durability enhancers, etc, can all be used effectively by a low/mid-level player who thinks a bit.
 

KijkkiJikki

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(PS. I might be wrong but I thought they adjusted enhancers such that they last longer on low cost per use weapons than on big weapons?)

My data collected so far supports this. Though I dont have enough for a strong conclusion yet. I am finding significantly higher break rate on Adapted Anabolic compared to korss H400 and Riker UL2
 

tamlin

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I agree Weapon Economy Enhancers are pretty much useless at the moment.

I don't see any con from MA though.
MA claims random breakage. AFAIK random = gambling, and one of the few reasons the Swedish gambling commission (Lotteriinspektionen) let them go was that they reached the conclusion that there was no element of randomness (I could be wrong though - it's quite a long time since I researched their findings).

The name of the item implies it is to be a weapon economy enhancer. The economy of a weapon has a quite rigid definition within Entropia Universe. The word "enhance" also can't really be argued. Therefore, any such item should perform the function the customer is reasonably to expect based on the item name. The item potentially can have the effect(s) claimed in the Item Description, but this does not match the expected functionality implied by the name of the item. At best it's "only" deceptive.

Even if we could get these "eco" enhancers for tt (which is an obvious impossibility), they would on a tt-pistol have to last for 8913 shots at 1.1% effect, or 9078 shots at 1.08% effect just to break even. Breaking even does not reach what's implied by the item name.

As the breakage is "random", they could break after just a single use (and indeed, MA had FAP eco enhancers break on average once every second use for a while!), displaying this item is definitely not performing its stated function - it's more likely performing the completely opposite function.

The only reason they are useless is their markup.
The gambling/randomness element falsifies this statement. Markup does however also play a role in the item having the reverse effect of what its name implies, but it definitely isn't the only reason.

Should I ever get to see proof combined with guarantee from MindArk that these enhancers perform the function the name implies (f.ex. last for over 8913/9078 uses on a tt-pistol, or 7507/7646 uses on an S30 with 1.08%/1.10% effect), then I could be nudged towards a slightly less critical position. However, that would also require:

0% markup on ingredients to craft enhancers.
0 PEC cost of BP.
0 PEC expected profit by crafter.
100% return on crafting.
0 PEC auction fee, or only player-to-player trades.
Guaranteed lifespan of enhancer to at minimum pay for itself.

As should be obvious, not a single one of those requirements can in reality be met, much less all of them. The last requirement could theoretically be met, but currently definitely is not. There's simply no chance in hell the enhancers can be acquired for tt. You know this. I know this. MindArk knows this. Everyone knows this. As such, as there is a practical impossibility for customers to get their hands of these "enhancers" for tt, the # of uses I listed above must be adjusted to match reality too.

(PS. I might be wrong but I thought they adjusted enhancers such that they last longer on low cost per use weapons than on big weapons?)
They can "adjust" from here until the end of the universe without voiding the fact that while "random" is in effect, the item does not meet customer expectations based on name of the item.

At tt-cost and 1.10% effect, one enhancer would have to outlive over 3 Emik S30 (L) to be what its name claims. At 10 PED each, we're talking about one enhancer lasting for over 30 Emik S30 (L). Anyone honestly think MindArk have adjusted the lifetime of enhancers to come even close to this? :)

While random is in effect, one can't expect a lifespan of more than a single use. Besides, does the enhancer have effect on the use when it breaks, or does the enhancer first break and only after that is effect checked for? If the latter, you would get zero uses out of an enhancer breaking on the first use.

At tt value of 1 PED/enhancer, if your gambling is so unlucky they break every use, the cost of one shot with a tt pistol would become over 98 times higher.

At the actually on auction cheapest found 10 PED/enhancer, if your gambling is so unlucky they break every use, the cost of one shot with a tt pistol would become over 981 times higher. This lower the "economy" of the tt-pistol from an (impossible to reach) theoretical maximum eco of 0.255 PEC/dmg to two and a half PED/dmg. Killing a Puny mob would cost you a minimum of 30 PED.

Some economy enhancer! :)
 

tamlin

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Should anyone feel compelled to whip up a webpage with some ecmascript, or just do some local experimentation in a spreadsheet:

Code:
Inputs:
enhancer_cost_PED
enhancer_effect (percent/100, i.e. currently believed to be 0.0108 or 0.011)

Output:
cost_per_cycle_PED = enhancer_cost_PED / enhancer_effect

cost_per_cycle_PED gives a theoretical minimum base tt cost (weapon decay+ammo) needed to cycle just to reach break even (get enhancer to pay for itself) assuming the enhancer never breaks. This is an absolute value, applicable for all weapons.


Additional for break even calculation:
Code:
Input:
expected_life (number of uses)

Outputs:
enhancer_decay_PEC = enhancer_cost_PED * 100 / expected_life
cost_threshold_PEC = enhancer_decay_PEC / enhancer_effect

enhancer_decay_PEC: Enhancer "decay" each use.
cost_threshold_PEC: Mininmum base cost (ammo+decay) per use to even reach break-even. A weapon costing less than this value to use would only "enhance" losses.


Additional to see how the effect on your weapon:
Code:
Input:
cost_per_use_PEC

Output:
saved_per_use_PEC          = cost_per_use_PEC * enhancer_effect
cost_per_use_enh_PEC       = cost_per_use_PEC - saved_per_use_PEC
saved_per_cycle_PED        = saved_per_use_PEC * expected_life / 100
actual_saved_per_cycle_PED = saved_per_cycle_PED - enhancer_cost_PED
no_of_uses_per_cycle       = enhancer_cost_PED * 100 / saved_per_use_PEC


(I hope I didn't make any silly transcript errors here, when converting the spreadsheet into plaintext :) Please check sanity of values!)

Happy hacking!
 

Starbuckx

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I'd like to resurrect this thread from the dark ages.

Are economy enhancers just not used? Or have any changes been made in recent years.

I can't find any conclusive evidence on how these things work, in terms of how much they are really worth to be usable.

I find it very annoying that there are items in game that no sane person would craft or use and the fact there is no clarity.

Have Mind Ark addressed this in any patch notes....I'm doing searches to try and find more info but bored now.
 

Scurvy Sityl

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0% markup on ingredients to craft enhancers.
0 PEC cost of BP.
0 PEC expected profit by crafter.
100% return on crafting.
0 PEC auction fee, or only player-to-player trades.
Guaranteed lifespan of enhancer to at minimum pay for itself.

(I know this post is three years old, but since the thread was bumped and still relevant today...)

There's also the issue that enhancer's TT value 30-50% the actual TT value of the items used in their crafting. This means even if all of the above "perfect" scenario were possible, you'd still be losing 2-3 times the TT value with each craft.

Crafters have to sell at between 200 and 300% just to BREAK EVEN on TT value.

I can see cases where the damage enhancers would be worth it, but since there is literally NOTHING "efficient" about efficiency enhancers, there really is no case where these could be helpful (that I can see).

I'm shocked to have read in a previous post that they sell. Maybe buyers bought them accidently thinking they were damage or skill enhancers?
 
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(I know this post is three years old, but since the thread was bumped and still relevant today...)

There's also the issue that enhancer's TT value 30-50% the actual TT value of the items used in their crafting. This means even if all of the above "perfect" scenario were possible, you'd still be losing 2-3 times the TT value with each craft.

Crafters have to sell at between 200 and 300% just to BREAK EVEN on TT value.

I can see cases where the damage enhancers would be worth it, but since there is literally NOTHING "efficient" about efficiency enhancers, there really is no case where these could be helpful (that I can see).

I'm shocked to have read in a previous post that they sell. Maybe buyers bought them accidently thinking they were damage or skill enhancers?

As a stackable I'd imagine that a successful attempt gives you a few of them.

However, since this was originally posted, hasn't there been data to show that UL weapons does not break enhancers as often?
 

Starbuckx

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It sounds like I should ignore these enhancers. On my small budget I'm not willing to lose lots of peds to do any testing and the boost would have to be very high by the sounds of it to make these viable.

Sounds to me like anyone who tries to use or craft these are giving money away.

To Mind Ark,

Please don't introduce items to a game that end up costing people money and therefore never get used.
That is wasted development time that could be spent on the numerous things that need to be fixed and you will confuse the hell out of new players trying to learn the game, like me, that makes me question whether I should bother playing if this is a common scenario.

If these items are going to be fixed, if you want them to increase eco by 1%, make them do so. They should decay on use to ensure a 1% saving is gained.
MU will probably eat into that, but then at least they will be worth crafting.

Thanks to guys who posted updates.
 

Vlooe

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1. Enhancers are not for new players.
2. The absolute effect of an enhancer depends on the basevalues of the item.

The only thing that is unknow about the enhancers is the break rates.
And this rate was reduced alot a few months ago(at least for dmg enhancers).
If i remember correctly the average break rate is different for every item.

The rest is simple math.
 

forgo

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I have a set of eco enhancers to fill 8 slots on my UL gun from time to time, and I do very much like the results when I use them. I also use these on most (L) weapons I get from mission tokens, so they last even longer.

As far as enhancer break rate, I believe the damage enhancers are back to the old break rate, been breaking them like crazy for mayhem.
 

Luckycharm

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...As far as enhancer break rate, I believe the damage enhancers are back to the old break rate, been breaking them like crazy for mayhem.

I have noticed the exact same thing for days and took out all enhancers of weapons and fap used unless really needed.
This has happened in my experience before and support gave me this response:

2014-07-02 07:41 Entropia Universe Support said:
Hi Luckycharm,

Thank you for contacting us.

As you might already know, since we are working with technical support we can not discuss in-world balance, therefore it is unfortunately not possible for us to give you a completely satisfying reply.

What I can say is that we would never implement a period of time that is designed to make something break faster or decay faster.

Since there is nothing more to add i will close this case, if you have any other further inquiries feel free to open a new case.

Kind regards,
***** | Entropia Universe Support

Somehow it seems to happen at times anyways...
 

K-Max

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I have always thought of economy enhancers as a joke :D After taking the price and figuring out what it would or more precisely wouldn't give me about 4 years ago when I first tiered my opallo up I laughed so hard.... Unless you craft them yourself and do a good run their is no way they can be considered economy enhancers.

Maybe MA thinks they enhance the economy by you spending more to play the game when they are used.

They should be called Increased Cost to Play Enhancers.....
 

Scurvy Sityl

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Unless you craft them yourself and do a good run their is no way they can be considered economy enhancers.

And even then, when you use the crafted enhancers, you're losing out on the potential value you could get by selling them on auction (because apparently people buy them?) :scratch2:
 
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