Question: What is Piracy? ( In Entropia)

[Alainax]

I've been pondering this since the new space mining update, and thought its maybe time to open the discussion on it.

Anyone who knows me, knows I've been in space since its launch, and as such watched the evolution of the space pirate term, and the ebb and flow of both their activity and reputational harm. Initially it was just considered Pking in space. However it soon became apparent that targetting travellers who were just trying to get from A to B was very much frowned upon by the community. Something was different about pking in space, it seemed to do more harm than planetside. These people didnt want to be in pvp, but had to through necessity, very unlike planetside.

With this an entire transport industry and businesses sprang up, and over the years a sort of balance existed. Pirates rarely targeted the very few people who would hunt in space, instead going for travellers.


Now to my question, with the introduction of space mining, it has became lucrative to hunt in the lootable areas of space. There are plenty of spots to do it out with lootable, but the best resources seem to lie in the lootable zones ( which make sense on the risk / reward balance).

So if someone is mining planet side in lootable, they have chose to be there, know the risk and accepted they might not survive - their killer is a pkr. ( whether you think they are assholes or not, its what they are).
In space, if someone is praying on travellers, they are a pirate.
So what becomes of the pkrs hunting those mining in space? Does the mere fact that ships are involved alone make it piracy regardless? or is there something more akin to planetside when not targetting travellers, but the miners of space., who chose to mine in that zone speciifically.

What does it matter? There was a time where being known as a pirate could have been one of the absolute most devastating thing to your reputation, close to scammers and cheaters. Not all people thought this way of course, but a large portion of the general opinion leaned toward that view. So the question is, has this space update changed that dynamic? Space seems booming at the moment, certainly compared to how it has been for the past decade, so I'm interested if the opinion will evolve with this change.



To avoid any speculation, opinions posted here wont sway my choices in anyway, Im just really curious how perceptions will change again in space. I am quite sure in the coming months we will see more players who would have never considered killing travellers, making decisions to try pking in space.


For now I'm not making a poll, as I want to hear peoples thoughts not just arbitrary stats.

I am also aware there are people who just hate all pvp in general, want it removed from the game etc, thats not the point of this thread.

 

[Theocles]

I think just because vehicles are involved it does not make someone a pirate. Praying on travelers is one thing, trying to get from point A to B. If someone knowingly enters the lootable zones in space to mine M asteroids, they are taking the risk for the markup, same as planetside in my eyes. So no I would not consider this piracy if someone is to shoot them while they are mining.

I do think there is a number of people who will no matter what, hate PvP and always call you a thief or a pirate if you were to shoot someone in space, but the reality of it is people enter the zone willingly to go for the markup on the M asteroids, it’s their risk and their fault if they are shot down.

The same goes for if I was to attempt to mine M asteroids, I wouldn’t call someone a pirate if they killed me, as it was my choice to go try to mine in lootable, same as planetside.

Glad someone finally asked/addressed this.

 

[DaisyColdFinger]

...................

 

[Spyrotron851]

In my opinion, I think that for someone to be called a space pirate, by common sense a pirate is someone who steals from another anything that does not belong to him, making it clear that a space pirate is someone who appropriates the lootables of others in space. Whether stealing from travelers or miners or attackers, it will always be considered as stealing at the expense that a player has made.

Speaking of the risks that one takes in entering those areas where they can steal from you, if there were no thieves there would be no way for them to steal from you, so those little trash that seek to assault you will never be welcomed by anyone, including the support that should not exist towards them.

 

[James Jimbo Linehan]

As a miner who gets killed in pvp lootable and lose $ I can say there's definitely a difference in a pirate who kills travelers going A to B with a lot of their bankroll in loot from another planet and who doesnt want to be there versus pking someone who is asteroid hunting. In planet mining I could go in mine up 50 or 100p or whatever and leave/drop off and repeat. Just the same as asteroid hunters can do and risk what they deem worthwhile.

Since MA killed mining in game I was actually thinking about going to kill asteroid hunters now myself. Since there's no real chance at markup anymore it's either: play against the house, play economy MU, kill others or quit.

conclusion: I wouldn't cry if I got killed shooting asteroids just the same as I wouldn't pvp mining.

 

[Alina]

I never understood this big FUSS about "pirates". Me and others did same thing in lootable planet side. What i disliked was the exploits in space and lootable and their wannabe attitude. You guys can ask Theocles and many others how i acted when we were fighting and how those level 10 plebs act in space.

 

[Theocles]

In my opinion, I think that for someone to be called a space pirate, by common sense a pirate is someone who steals from another anything that does not belong to him, making it clear that a space pirate is someone who appropriates the lootables of others in space. Whether stealing from travelers or miners or attackers, it will always be considered as stealing at the expense that a player has made.

Speaking of the risks that one takes in entering those areas where they can steal from you, if there were no thieves there would be no way for them to steal from you, so those little trash that seek to assault you will never be welcomed by anyone, including the support that should not exist towards them.

Dont you mine lootable from time to time? lol, just because you have no interest in fighting for the markup thats there, doesnt mean those who will fight for it, are trash. If you disapprove of pvp and lootable, don't go in there. Or do..

 

[Alainax]

As a miner who gets killed in pvp lootable and lose $ I can say there's definitely a difference in a pirate who kills travelers going A to B with a lot of their bankroll in loot from another planet and who doesnt want to be there versus pking someone who is asteroid hunting. In planet mining I could go in mine up 50 or 100p or whatever and leave/drop off and repeat. Just the same as asteroid hunters can do and risk what they deem worthwhile.

Since MA killed mining in game I was actually thinking about going to kill asteroid hunters now myself. Since there's no real chance at markup anymore it's either: play against the house, play economy MU, kill others or quit.

conclusion: I wouldn't cry if I got killed shooting asteroids just the same as I wouldn't pvp mining.

I never expected the land miners revolt! Nice twist!

 

[TheOneOmega]

As far as I know, there is no official or system-supported distinction between piracy and non-piracy (as there is for mining and non-mining), and frankly, I don't see solid ground for a conceptual distinction either.

As far as any potential objective moral distinction in concerned, I have spent the entire decade plus since space was implemented trying to help anti-pirates articulate their reasons for believing that piracy violates some moral duty, so that each Entropian choosing whether or not to engage in piracy could make a moral assessment better informed by those reasons. The anti-pirates haven't offered much. Usually they either offer reasons so restrictive they would render many or most actions in gaming (and life) immoral if applied consistently (X is morally wrong therefore the roleplaying or other fictional representation of X is morally wrong, or X involves a transfer of value therefore X is morally wrong), or so vague they cannot actually be used to classify right from wrong except possibly by someone who has direct access to the anti-pirate's mental representation of a situation's moral structure (X is morally wrong because X is "taking advantage" of other players, or X is morally wrong because X's moral wrongness is "common sense").

Similarly, I've never heard a reason to think space traveling and hunting/mining in lootable PVP have categorically distinct necessity statuses. No one is required to hunt/mine in PVP and no one is required to visit other planets. Individuals voluntarily decide whether or not to do these things based on the totality of their expected benefits, costs, and risks with respect to their personal ambitions and goals. Even if it was successfully argued that making space travel less costly and/or less risky would constitute net positive game design, on the grounds that more players voluntarily decide to travel in space than to hunt/mine in lootable PVP, or that the set of expected benefits conditional upon space travel is larger than upon hunting/mining in lootable in PVP, surely it does not follow that space travel is involuntary.

On the other hand, if we abandon the idea that the distinction is objective and speak of it as a purely sociological animal, then two further points seem appropriate. Firstly, it appears that we should regard historical anti-piracy in such case as deeply immoral. If I notice another miner on EntropiaLife targeting the same resource as me and start a blacklist campaign against them, fabricating a narrative of illegality or immorality to increase my markup by deterring their legally and morally permissible exercise of an option Entropia affords, then presumably I have not only violated my own moral prohibition, but likely also the EULA clause about not interfering with any other user's ability to use and enjoy Entropia Universe (granted that the latter is too vague to ever apply with confidence). Given that might does not make right, this seems the case even if I am successful in convincing most Entropians of my narrative, or even if most Entropians form the same narrative independently. So in the absence of any reason to believe pirating objectively immoral, the "reputation deterrence" surrounding pirating strikes me as more accurately described as the chilling effects of a tyranny of the majority. I would not arrive at the same conclusion in the case of, i.e., reputation deterrence surrounding armor upgrade scams, because I would argue that the narrative of immorality is (usually?) accurate, although I might tend toward a general skepticism that reputation deterrence is able to filter out only truly illegal and immoral acts.

Secondly, we have the pragmatic question of which legally and morally permissible acts the Entropian might still be well-advised to avoid in order to steer clear of the real harm inflicted by immoral, false morality narratives. Here I don't think anything is truly safe, although some acts are clearly more likely to activate folks than others. Dunning-Kruger is big here. I've seen folks go off because they were offered around the auction price of a refined EnMatter for their unrefined version (which is often incidentally pricier than the refined version due to low auction transaction volumes). It's probably not terribly relevant that the threat of harm comes from a false morality narrative, as opposed to, i.e., trying to steer clear of the real harm inflicted by street violence; you do the best you can to walk down the safer streets if you value the safety differential more than the freedom of having diverse street options, and then you hope you don't run into a lunatic anyhow. I don't see solid ground for any more respectable a distinction between piracy and non-piracy than that, and find it far preferable to deconstruct than to construct any such candidate distinction, unless it is grounded in moral accuracy.

 

[Photon]

You keep referring to it as pking and pvp, but it's more than that. Most people don't have a problem with pvp or even getting killed in a normal pvp zone. On the other hand, most people DO have a problem with lootable pvp for a very simple reason. Every lootable item has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency. Lootable pvp is theft, the in game equivalent of a mugging. It shouldn't exist in a real cash game.

 

[TheOneOmega]

most people DO have a problem with lootable pvp for a very simple reason. Every lootable item has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency. Lootable pvp is theft, the in game equivalent of a mugging. It shouldn't exist in a real cash game.

I agree that the reason is very simple, perhaps a bit too simple to satisfy the role of a good reason. Do you think the "most people" who equate Entropia piracy with theft for this reason would also equate every wager in a poker cash game with theft, for the reason that every poker chip has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency, and thus that poker wagering is theft and shouldn't exist in a real cash game? If not, then the general principle from which we were supposed to reason to the immorality of Entropia piracy seems to be false by their own lights.

 

[Theocles]

You keep referring to it as pking and pvp, but it's more than that. Most people don't have a problem with pvp or even getting killed in a normal pvp zone. On the other hand, most people DO have a problem with lootable pvp for a very simple reason. Every lootable item has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency. Lootable pvp is theft, the in game equivalent of a mugging. It shouldn't exist in a real cash game.

Well funny thing about lootable pvp, this is an aspect of the game that you are not forced to take part in at all. So it existing does not remotely affect you in the slightest... Legend has it, that if you don't go in the big red zones on the map, you cannot be looted.. Not hard right?

Some people enjoy a part of the game you do not, get over it.

 

[Photon]

Well funny thing about lootable pvp, this is an aspect of the game that you are not forced to take part in at all. So it existing does not remotely affect you in the slightest, simply avoid the big red zones on the map, problem solved yeah?

Some people enjoy a part of the game you do not, get over it.

I should have been clearer, the OP was about space priacy for the most part and I was responding to that. It's very easy to become a victim when there's no sign posting on the map. I don't have a problem with planetside lootable because it's clearly at your own risk with toxic shots etc. If they made space a little more clear then it'd be another case of buyer beware - something I don't have a problem with. Also, you didn't have to finish your post with "get over it", like I'm some draconian nanny trying to take your toys away. Leave that language at the door and let's have a civil conversation

Also, @TheOneOmega I think I answered your comment regarding poker. If people willingly go into lootable pvp then that, to me, is the equivalent of taking a seat at the poker table

 

[Alainax]

I should have been clearer, the OP was about space priacy for the most part and I was responding to that. It's very easy to become a victim when there's no sign posting on the map. I don't have a problem with planetside lootable because it's clearly at your own risk with toxic shots etc. If they made space a little more clear then it'd be another case of buyer beware - something I don't have a problem with. Also, you didn't have to finish your post with "get over it", like I'm some draconian nanny trying to take your toys away. Leave that language at the door and let's have a civil conversation

Also, @TheOneOmega I think I answered your comment regarding poker. If people willingly go into lootable pvp then that, to me, is the equivalent of taking a seat at the poker table

So just for clarity, if someone willingly chooses to mine in a lootable pvp zone, with free choice, knowing it was lootable and there's better loot there, even if its just space, you wouldn't have a problem with that?

Your first post seemed more aimed at all lootable pvp being a problem, which I'd addressed in the first post was always going to be the opinion of some but not entirely helpful to the question posed.


Just trying to make sure I understand your point well enough


Edit to add- i think @TheOneOmega post about akin to gambling is a great analogy. There is a risk/ reward factor in lootable pvp.

 

[Photon]

So just for clarity, if someone willingly chooses to mine in a lootable pvp zone, with free choice, knowing it was lootable and there's better loot there, even if its just space, you wouldn't have a problem with that?

Your first post seemed more aimed at all lootable pvp being a problem, which I'd addressed in the first post was always going to be the opinion of some but not entirely helpful to the question posed.


Just trying to make sure I understand your point well enough


Edit to add- i think @TheOneOmega post about akin to gambling is a great analogy. There is a risk/ reward factor in lootable pvp.

Yes. That’s exactly right. It’s late and I’m not being very coherent right now.

 

[Theocles]

I should have been clearer, the OP was about space priacy for the most part and I was responding to that. It's very easy to become a victim when there's no sign posting on the map. I don't have a problem with planetside lootable because it's clearly at your own risk with toxic shots etc. If they made space a little more clear then it'd be another case of buyer beware - something I don't have a problem with. Also, you didn't have to finish your post with "get over it", like I'm some draconian nanny trying to take your toys away. Leave that language at the door and let's have a civil conversation

Also, @TheOneOmega I think I answered your comment regarding poker. If people willingly go into lootable pvp then that, to me, is the equivalent of taking a seat at the poker table

My mistake, took it as being directed at all lootable zones. Ive always believed that if someone enters the zone, they are accepting the risks of being there.

 

[SoberPhil]

I think that the problem with space pirates is that they target travelers and noobs that aren't there for the PvP. Some pirates may or may not have been using exploits in the past to get an extra advantage. Some pirates sit in space all day waiting for a noob (or maybe someone who's distracted) to pass by to steal their deposit, I can't even imagine how bad it must be for them IRL for this to be worth spending their lives on. Sometimes they sit all day near an SS waiting for someone to follow into lootable, and they have to be looking at their empty black screen all the time since the window of opportunity here is short. There's been a alot of complaints from new players being shot in space and those are people on a very tight budget. We're already a small community as it is, should such behavior rally be promoted? After all this is an RCE.

I also suspect that the loot algorithm might treat PvP loss like a hunting loss and return some or most of it at some point. You guys know your PvP stuff much better than me maybe you could confirm or deny this.

When it comes to planetside lootable it's a different story. You need a toxic shot, you can clearly seet it on the map, if you go there PvE you go for higher MU and you know the risk. I think I'm fine with that. In space - if you're a mere traveler - what's your reward? You get to loose PED on another planet and risk your inventory in the process if the vultures are around? Isn't the game supposed to be free to explore, or quasi free at least? Most of the content is outside of Calypso if you compare the maps.

Now with space mining things have changed since the good stuff is in lootable, if you go there to mine it becomes more like planetsdie PvP with a clear risk/reward system. It would be great if the developers can simply mark these zones on the space map and create a safe passage for travelers who are just flying from one planet to another, it's been suggested lately and I think it would be a great addition to tha game.

 

[Svarog]

I understand piracy as unconsented killing and looting in space. But if I understand correctly (no clue frankly), the lootable mining areas are placed away from traveling routes, you don't have to be there for any purpose other than the high reward mining, accepting higher risk just like with planetside pvp4. So anyone going there essentially gives a tacit consent to whatever happens there. I don't think anyone ever called pvp4-er thieves or robbers, aside from momentary emotions maybe?

 

[Equi]

I think when everyone you interact with other than your fellow pirate friend has something personal against you. That is when you know you are a pirate. When you cannot longer walk into town without someone throwing an apple and shout shame. When people start to conspire to get you back in some way. You get ostracized from the community to a certain point at least with negativity (your money would still be green). Now, does it matter well not really. It kind of sucks to wake up to negative comments or whatever but it could be your fuel I don't know to each their own. Piracy used to be something you got into for life.

Edit:
my point is you can't really ask if it's ok because it's not ok, (from the average pleayer's pov) as it should be and that's fine.

 

[Raffaele Meiers]

I think there is only a small change needed to make it more enjoyable and balanced.

Make it so that the pirate can only loot as much in TT as he is carrying lotable stuff while doing it.
So if they kill someone they can loot as much stuff as they are risking themselve.

I read allways that they like to do PvP so with this little change there will certainly be others who wants to fight with the pirates in space as they can count on it that they also carry some stuff while doing their business. It would also be a more balanced environment when not only the travelers can loose but also the pirates. In real live they, the pirates, could face prison time or worse when they lose in EU they have to repair ship and can carry on with it so it should be at least that they only can gain something when they risk something.

 

[Spawn]

My stance remains simple: The game allows peoples money to be stolen in certain areas. Whenever you loot someone, you are essentially taking someone elses possessions. That's a low moral.

Now on the planet, you need to get a toxic shot to enter a lootable area. This is a good protection for new players, they can't enter the lootable area on punishment of death. Also you can clearly see which area is lootable(red area). You enter at your own risk, and you can get looted.

Space is different. The game is not called "entropia stay on your own planet" it's called "entropia universe" , Travellers need to be able to go from planet to planet, even poor ones, who could barely buy the lesser spaceship from their gathered and sold sweat.
For the argument the op makes to be true:
- lootable zones need to be clearly marked (red zone) on the map, pump it full of rare space ores.
- You would need something special to enter them, like a toxic shot
- Travellers without loot should be allowed to get to another planet, without having to pass through lootable and getting shot down. Travelling with a mothership still requires you to fly down, either make the space to fly down non-lootable, or remove the fee to tp down, so poor entropians can still travel through space. Maybe mark a blue dot next the healthbar indicating the player carries no loot. Want to carry loot? Use a mothership/privateer. Want to be fast? Use a mothership/privateer. ON that note, space has shrunk or speed has gone up, it now only takes 5 minutes from caly to cyrene in a quad. it should take longer in a quad from planet to planet maybe even quadruple it (20 mins from caly to cyrene), so Motherships get more traffic.

Then I would say space looting is pk and not piracy.
I will still not respect you when you take other peoples possessions, same as people who pickpocket in trains (while it's possible in real life, doesn't mean you should)

 

[Raffaele Meiers]

I agree that the reason is very simple, perhaps a bit too simple to satisfy the role of a good reason. Do you think the "most people" who equate Entropia piracy with theft for this reason would also equate every wager in a poker cash game with theft, for the reason that every poker chip has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency, and thus that poker wagering is theft and shouldn't exist in a real cash game? If not, then the general principle from which we were supposed to reason to the immorality of Entropia piracy seems to be false by their own lights.

Why you compare a wager in a poker game which someone did put in without beeing forced to do it with the theft of valuable items in EU? It would more be in line if you would compare it to a person who steals the cash from the poker player when he left the table to go home and has to use a street which is not controlled by police force.

 

[Sulje]

There you go boys and girls, if you participate in pvp you are a thief and mugger, for every pvp lootable kill there should be police report filed, since in eye of the law it's the same. Innocent noob with 500HP and level 200+ in every combat profession unwillingly and suddenly entered lootable pvp while he was planning to do his daily run of Mulaak'f, and thieving muggers mugged him, poor noob.

Another noob with 350 health suddenly decided they need to carry their valuables trough space instead of paying warp 15 peds, and muggers mugged him. Unknowingly since the "You are entering lootable PvP zone" messages weren't properly sent via pigeon to them (pigeon was tired at the moment of the event)

I vote for:

- Removal of lootable pvp completely
- Put all rare materials into flesh ripper (specifically the instanced ones)
- Shut down the servers

 

[Alainax]

(Not aimed at anyone, but just so we don't end up digressing into mudslinging).


As per the op, the discussion is regarding the differences in perception between those who are killing travellers through space, or those going after those who have willfully chosen to hunt the more lucrative asteroids in lootable pvp.


I do appreciate the mix of responses so far

 

[Aloisius]

As per the op, the discussion is regarding the differences in perception between those who are killing travellers through space, or those going after those who have willfully chosen to hunt the more lucrative asteroids in lootable pvp.

Absolutely acceptable version of piracy in space. The PK'd miner in space knows the risk, knows the skills and knows the game. It's fair. (If they mark the territories on the map and give us a radar that will help both types of players.)

The victims that travel is absolutely not an acceptable version because there's no retribution, no avenging, not even vigilantism is possible. It's literally raping - not even akin to piracy.

 

[Sub-Zero]

With new space update and with space mining available in lootable zone for more rare ores and better content. I see no reason to have lootable zones between any travel routes between planets.
In order to enforce limits they can add an item weight restriction when traveling with regular quad in space.

Space tp tokens and warps are meant to be a time saver option.

Make space great please

 

[Dayzed]

There are alot of areas that need attention, i dont think space piracy is one of them, everyone knows the risk in space, hence the motherships and warp services. as an everyday entropian that ocassional ventures to new planets if i go out in space i dont carry anything lootable.

the supply and demand forces take longer to balance things in comparison to the effects of the change.
People who are mining in space will either risk it for the bisquit for not, if not the "pirates" will find someting else to do.

the additional supply of the gems will cause some to take a hair cut (bummer)(but again a natural force in markets(ask AI)and the price of the corresponding gear to drop. In return would allow access to currently lower geared player to upgrade there gear. Which they then get to cycle at a higher cost per click amount to a larger ped loss compared to the players previous hunting gear.

MA isnt the only forces at work here. Im sure MA is reacting to external monetary forces.

They dont have the luxary of inflation in P.E.D sinces its essential a liability IRL so deflation it must be.

 

[germ]

I'm nobody, but I fall into the "I don't have to participate, and won't, so it doesn't much matter."

When space was a free-for-all, I didn't venture off Calypso unless I had a social imperative such as Society or friend group. I remember one such week-long furlough to Ancient Greece, and the rush I felt of not only crawling there with my Sleipnir and surviving, but also bringing back a shipment of Fanoos V2 unscathed was exhilarating. However, in just about every format of head to head, player versus player gaming, even collectable card games or anything with a price tag, I don't play. If it's not a game of skill, but a game of wallet, I am not a big spender on my hobbies and therefore can never be competitive. Card games have budget restrictive formats, such as booster draft, penny-card leagues, etc that I enjoy. Level the playing field financially, I'll play. As long as there's ANY chance of me standing toe to toe with someone else's credit card, I'm out. As long as I have the choice to "sit at the table" or "walk on by" I don't see any harm.

Edited to add:

Even in the earliest editions of Magic: The Gathering, paying a "card ante" was literally rules as written, and cards even had some ability to affect said ante. Heck, even POGS were played "for keeps" back then. Just don't take my slammer or we're fighting lol

That is to say, loss of real monetary value in a game is nothing new, and certainly not a crime. It's not a mugging, it's a game. Play, or don't. My opinion only.

 

[Granny Rowan]

Once upon a time we had space that was mostly PVP, where the only way to cross it to another planet was at your own risk in a quad, sleipnir, or pay for a warp. Btw lets be clear on this, Warps are not and never have been 100% safe, they do however offer a far higher level of safety than 'fly yourself'. BUT but but...what about log off surely that makes them safe.. hmm not always.. what if ship gets stuck in warp.. so neither you nor owner can be certain when ship will be able to dock.. this has been days later on occasion. Same is true if passenger or pilot lose internet for some while (bad weather, PC dies etc you get the idea)

Given how huge space PVP zone was it should not really have become as big an issue as it did, except that MA created artificial bottlenecks, where entrants to space could be readily found, (Spawning of the vehicles from planet at the planet SS). whether a design flaw, or deliberate I doubt even MA know. But as a consequence we had space PK'ers hoping to profit from that nice localised spawn where it was all too easy to then chase down the unwary, the space newb, or those too greedy to consider paying for a warp, as a way to help insure the safety of their loot,
Lets be fair here, if in the Real World you needed to move a valuable cargo or a lot of cash you would probably hire an armoured vehicle or professional courier, or if you wanted to move swiftly to next planet and the activities there get on a high speed train / plane etc, yet avatars have forever bitched about and balked at paying a small amount to protect their bankroll, or save themselves the extra travel time, completely ignoring that the cost to the service provider is not just the TT of the warp, but their investment in the vessel, upgrades to the vessel, crew training and most important their time.

Had we been able to spawn at a location of our choice within say 0.5 AU of the server boundary for the planet, or in the safe zone around the SS, and then use a warp, then the 'pk'ers' would have had to patrol a much larger area to find the potential victims. Much like planetside PVP, finding the solitary traveller in a large are makes it more akin to finding a needle in a haystack, so lots of waiting or patrolling or organisation to share the search.

So get to the point Gran, why the PK'er / Pirate difference in perception. Again we have to look to MA and how their decisions affected us all.

Planetsde PVP (red zones) have to be a deliberate choice of the player, as require toxic shots to enter them. The zone can be entered around the whole perimeter, so easy to enter unseen. Players know the risks, but balance them against possible better loots. Hunter and hunted have the same possibilities, awareness, skills and equipment are the variables they control.

Space PVP, until the recent changes, you either spent your whole EU life on your planet of birth, or you had to enter space PVP for travel, and any lootables that needed to travel with you were at risk. Forced to enter the PVP zone from such a small area, that arrival was initially almost impossible to do unseen' .
Yet this was not balanced by increased space derived rewards, as space was frankly devoid of any real hunting of value. Most users simply wished to travel.
So the only people to profit were the space PK'ers aka Pirates. They like pirates in other games and on planet earth, were often better resourced than the average traveller, better practiced as spent their time perfecting their space fight techniques etc, so ignoring any and all accusations about scams, exploits etc they for the most part would have had an advantage anyway. That MA were slow to respond to the player requests for the PVP zone to be moved further from the SS, the appalling misleading messages in regard to what is and isn't lootable PVP, and the apparent inability to deal with exploits in a timely manner, and tbh they set the scene for space PK'ers to be hated, to gain the title Pirate

But space mining can, will, must change the balance, indeed already has ( we can now TP to other planets and need never use a space ship, yes there is a cost, but we do at least now have the choice ), we as players seem to have MA listening, this is our chance to offer solutions to improve the future for all.
Pirates should still exist but simply as the opposition. If the miners and space hunters are there in PVP to take risk, then MA need to ensure they have reason to be there, unique space loots. They could then reduce the number of planet derived loots in space and rebalance, so all players felt valued rather than trodden on

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

Pirates are the ones who don't earn the booty themselves. They manipulate, lie, bug abuse, bug exploit and aim bot or use a program to get an edge against anyone else. Having multiple accounts "hiding" in space pvp to scout for players.

That is what a pirate is. It's not specifically Killing a weary traveler, but doing it in a way that you CAN'T lose, because you aren't playing fair, just like a pirate.