Question: What is Piracy? ( In Entropia)

I guess one reason why so many react on it is due to they believe we have a RL value ingame, which we don't.
We have the potential and possibilty to withdraw our ingame monopoly currency to a RL value though, but still as
long as the value is ingame its zero, no different from any other ordinary game.

It will ofc not be easier for some if they understood this, but at the same time, maybe they will look at ingame values
a bit different than they do today?

Some are just annoyed by the leeching in space, which is understandable, I get (or got) more annoyed being almost
at next server and getting shot down and have to start all over again. :D I never cary loot in space though.
Now when travelling is way faster it isn't the same for me.
 
I understand piracy as unconsented killing and looting in space. But if I understand correctly (no clue frankly), the lootable mining areas are placed away from traveling routes, you don't have to be there for any purpose other than the high reward mining, accepting higher risk just like with planetside pvp4. So anyone going there essentially gives a tacit consent to whatever happens there. I don't think anyone ever called pvp4-er thieves or robbers, aside from momentary emotions maybe?
I don't think anyone would care if lootable PVP in space was moved to asteroid areas or select spaces. What people have complained about is that people who don't want to pvp are forced to pvp as a condition of traveling between planets. People come to Entropia for peace, relax, or chill. This does not include the idea that somewhere in your inventory, you might have something stashed in a chest or your inventory isn't condensed that you forgot about something (just like the guy in planet PVP that lost all his RDI stash and pills, tens of thousands of peds worth). There's too many gotchas for something that people didn't want to do to begin with. And then you have someone in space trying to exploit that fact. It's a far difference from being in lootable trying to extract high reward and getting popped. What does that do in the end? Well, new players get agitated and quit. Old players who forgot they had 8k lyst in their quad because it was at the bottom of their inventory and not visible, end up raging and quitting.

Then there are those who will keep attacking you over and over again to grief knowing you are non-engage, which is against TOS. Add the map exploit that we were gaslit about, etc - well, you can see why people hate "pirates". And they all have it easy because most of all their interactions are non-combat.

And a brief mention about the land kidnapping exploit to space - exploitation of that mechanic --- the spaceship summon/eject exploit that pirates used. I could go on and on.

It is slightly amusing (and taking note) of people's attitude changes of space piracy (not the asteroid) now that the only markup left in game is green dots.
 
Why you compare a wager in a poker game which someone did put in without beeing forced to do it with the theft of valuable items in EU? It would more be in line if you would compare it to a person who steals the cash from the poker player when he left the table to go home and has to use a street which is not controlled by police force.
The quoted post is not best described as a comparison, but as a refutation of a syllogism. The syllogism was supposed to be a reason to believe that it is theft to pirate in Entropia, something along the lines of...

1) Whenever a player action causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership, that player action constitutes theft.
2) Piracy is a player action which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership.
____
Therefore, 3) Piracy constitutes theft.


I was challenging the first premise by offering a counterexample to the proposed general principle, namely, an example of a player action (poker wagering) which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency (poker chips) to change ownership, but presumably does not constitute theft. It would be rather silly of me to offer an example which does constitute theft. That would be like if you are unconvinced that Lily the swan is white, and I claim Lily is white reasoning via the syllogism...

1) All swans are white.
2) Lily is a swan.
____
Therefore, 3) Lily is white.


...and while you possess swans of many colors, to refute the first premise, you choose to offer an example of...a white swan!

Also, I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that traveling between planets is forced but wagering in poker is unforced. Entropians can and some do choose to remain on Calypso indefinitely, but I can't quite figure out how to play poker for more than a few hands without being prompted to wager.
 
You guys have so much time. Mindark choice to keep PvP. So stfu
 
Even in the earliest editions of Magic: The Gathering, paying a "card ante" was literally rules as written, and cards even had some ability to affect said ante. Heck, even POGS were played "for keeps" back then. Just don't take my slammer or we're fighting lol

That is to say, loss of real monetary value in a game is nothing new, and certainly not a crime. It's not a mugging, it's a game. Play, or don't. My opinion only.
The difference is that in the games you mentioned both can loose, here only one side can loose as the "Pirate" or as you wrote "the not Mugger" only can loose if he is so stupide to carry loot.

There would be more incentive for fights when the Attacker only can loot as much as he is willing to risk himself.
 
The quoted post is not best described as a comparison, but as a refutation of a syllogism. The syllogism was supposed to be a reason to believe that it is theft to pirate in Entropia, something along the lines of...

1) Whenever a player action causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership, that player action constitutes theft.
2) Piracy is a player action which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency to change ownership.
____
Therefore, 3) Piracy constitutes theft.


I was challenging the first premise by offering a counterexample to the proposed general principle, namely, an example of a player action (poker wagering) which causes a game item which has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency (poker chips) to change ownership, but presumably does not constitute theft. It would be rather silly of me to offer an example which does constitute theft. That would be like if you are unconvinced that Lily the swan is white, and I claim Lily is white reasoning via the syllogism...

1) All swans are white.
2) Lily is a swan.
____
Therefore, 3) Lily is white.


...and while you possess swans of many colors, to refute the first premise, you choose to offer an example of...a white swan!

Also, I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that traveling between planets is forced but wagering in poker is unforced. Entropians can and some do choose to remain on Calypso indefinitely, but I can't quite figure out how to play poker for more than a few hands without being prompted to wager.

Thanks for your detailed explanation, but you missed the point: In poker or a card game, BOTH risk losing their bet. This difference could easily be resolved by having BOTH risk the same amount as in your poker or card game examples. So the winner only gets as much as he was willing to risk.

I hope that in your next answer you will address this main reason why your examples do not apply to the situation at hand.
 
I did quite alot of space hunting in an L quad a few years back. In those days you could press T, to avoid flying back to an SS to tt loot. I got robbed a few times, but the risk felt fairly balanced when esi were dropping from cosmics, and there was a better chance to run...so to speak then MA changed it, and I couldn't use the T anymore.

I got badly robbed once on the way back from Ark, after an update where some loot for some reason sat at the bottom on the scrollbar in inventory. I didn't spot it until half way home. I took it on the chin, but it was annoying.

Actually the reason I kind of avoid space at the moment is my L quad is on its last legs, and I dont want to buy a backup one before travelling, or risk getting stranded. I'd be willing to spend a 2000 peds on an unlimited ship, even if it had very basic attributes. That's something for MA to think about i guess, now space has opened up a bit more. I really can't be bothered with L and be shot at all the time. Just from the point of view of buying new ships.

So from a pirate point of view, it's ruining my L ships that is the bigger issue. I'm not a fan of lootable anyway, and too old to moan about it. We either choose to play it or not. That's the 2 choices..heehee

Anyway... space is fun to play. So always nice to see new development.
 
Thanks for your detailed explanation, but you missed the point: In poker or a card game, BOTH risk losing their bet. This difference could easily be resolved by having BOTH risk the same amount as in your poker or card game examples. So the winner only gets as much as he was willing to risk.

I hope that in your next answer you will address this main reason why your examples do not apply to the situation at hand.
I am confident that this was not the point, not because I can read your mind, but because your post was a criticism of how I responded to an argument given by another forum user, and this bit about asymmetric risk was simply not part of the argument you entered into. That argument attempted to infer the thievery status of Entropia piracy from the real monetary value of lootable items, a claim to which the distribution of risk is irrelevant.

You are welcome to raise a new point to attempt to infer the thievery status of Entropia piracy from the asymmetric distribution of risk between the parties involved. There is, of course, no reason to expect poker to remain relevant in the context of the new argument, but it is worth noting that a common practice among professional poker players is to "sell action" to others in order to outsource some or all of the risk and some of the reward otherwise present in the game. An example closer to home would be sweating. Collective Vibrant Sweat is a monetarily riskless activity. Similarly for picking fruit off the ground and so forth. The risklessly obtained items make their way around the economy to someone who uses them as inputs into an activity with risk (possibly risk which they'd opt out of if Entropia offered the same activity without said risk), yet it's hard to imagine classifying sweating as theft for this reason. Piracy involves more risk than sweating by any measure.

So what about risk in conjunction with reward? Maybe the problem is supposed to be that the expected profitability of piracy is "too high" relative to other professions or to space travel? Well, it is again easy to construct examples of market conditions in which other professions offer opportunities with similar returns to piracy, at least for a while until more Entropians shift focus toward the opportunity and it gets arbitraged away. If this is your view, that Entropia piracy is thievery just if the risk-adjusted reward is too high, then maybe there is something you can do about the problem after all. The natural question to ask is why the market has failed to correct this inefficiency, such that piracy has remained unduly profitable for so long. There must be something getting in the way of folks arbitraging away the excess profitability. My suggestion would be to investigate the impact of sociological factors on the propensity for new and/or non-pirate Entropians to become pirates. In particular, a climate of anti-piracy may be deterring potential pirates, preventing the market for piracy from clearing. So you might consider becoming an advocate for the pirates in chats and forums. Sing their praises wherever the opportunity presents itself. Perhaps create some tutorials helping new Entropians to break into the pirate profession. This may create more pirates and help balance the risk and reward to their appropriate levels.
 
Why you compare a wager in a poker game which someone did put in without beeing forced to do it with the theft of valuable items in EU? It would more be in line if you would compare it to a person who steals the cash from the poker player when he left the table to go home and has to use a street which is not controlled by police force.

I am confident that this was not the point, not because I can read your mind, but because your post was a criticism of how I responded to an argument given by another forum user, and this bit about asymmetric risk was simply not part of the argument you entered into. That argument attempted to infer the thievery status of Entropia piracy from the real monetary value of lootable items, a claim to which the distribution of risk is irrelevant.
But in your example the risk is symetrical, both poker player have to risk the same amount of money to have a chance to win the pot, not asymmetric as in EU and thats what I think is the main reason the people are so annoyed with "pirates".
Because of this imbalance in risk taken I think my mentioned change is relevant to this thread. If the pirates have to act like in a poker game, risk the same amount they could gain, they would not be perceived as pirates anymore I think.

Here in more words the same as above, same as you do in your lengty replais to short answers:
Yes I asked why you compare something, wager in poker, with something, you have to go trough lootable space to travel to another planet.
You decide in a poker game if your cards are good and you want to bet on them that you will win the round. When you travel to another planet in EU you can not opt to go trough lootable space or not so you are forced to enter lootable space.
So continuing with your examples, in poker if you bet amount X on the cards you have and the other parties have also to bet the same amount otherwise he has lost the round. In EU the person who waits for traverlers to shoot them down does not has to have any lootable item to get something in return.

I know you want to detere from this fact as it shows the imbalance in risk involved between the Pirates, yes here is the infamous word again, and the travelers.

It may be also seen as thiefery because of this above mentioned imbalance. In, your example, a poker game both risk loosing, a thief in real live risks loosing his freedom when catched, in EU he is risking the repair cost of his ship and ammo nothing else so this is not like a poker game in real live but more like thiefery in real live. Either the pirates face some real punishment when doing their "business" or at least have to risk as much as the person he is shooting at.

So both have to risk something to gain something, the traveler wants to gain MU, if he did not took the lootable by accident by traveling with the loot to another planet and the pirate would also have to risk something if he wants to have the chance of gain something.


Heck it would even give more fights for the PvP loving people as others would also have a chance to gain something by chasing pirates for loot, something the PvP lovers wanted or do they only want reward without risk?
 
Ok ... interesting. Here's my point of view.

As soon as there's loot being taken by force between players, it's piracy. PK'ing is when you take down another player (land or in space) without a reward (which is loot ) being involved.

Tbh I have avoided space back in time because I didn't want to be looted and was afraid of pirates. Besides, I'm really a bad loser, which is also why I stayed away from EVE online (after losing my shit a few times). Maybe I would have enjoyed it more if my PK skills were better (or if my patience where) ;) But tbh, shooting other players have (yet) never really appealed me ... unless there being a reason ofc - and I did one kill ever in PvP :D

To me, a pirate is someone who directly targets loot for profit - and not someone who takes down another player just for fun.

This Universe is a model of the real world. There must be a balance between good and bad forces to keep things from collapsing (or plain boring). In Entropia, MA has decided that both PvP and Piracy are legitimate gameplay elements. This is implemented through designated areas with clear warnings before you enter. So, if you step into a lootable or pvp zone, it's at your own risk.

That said, I still believe it shold be possible to travel between planets without the fear of being looted or shot down. I do understand that OP doesn't want to debate this but rather focus on the distinction between pvp and piracy and how it might change not. However, the game could maintain its balance by keeping certain space mobs and valuable resources within the lootable pvp zones. This way it remains a player's choice whether to take the risk or not.

Personally, I would like to explore pvp a bit more - which is also why we're hosted a few pvp events and plan to continue doing so in the future. If all parties are on board, pvp can be a fun experience. And maybe, just maybe, it could be a playful way to 'strike back' if you're ever felt wronged.

Do I like normal, friendly players? Yes. Do I like players that PK's in PvP? Yes. Do I like pirates? Yes. I just generally like most people lol (NOT scammers or twats, tbc) - and we're all here to play a role in this Universe - each our own.

Anway, what do I know. I play mostly for fun ... I'm just a Nun :saint:

(so please, don't shoot me all the way down to Hell now ... lol ... )
 
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No honor among thiefs. 😕

Keep planet side lootable pvp scrap or limit space pvp zones. 🤷‍♂️

Problems solved.
 
I agree that the reason is very simple, perhaps a bit too simple to satisfy the role of a good reason. Do you think the "most people" who equate Entropia piracy with theft for this reason would also equate every wager in a poker cash game with theft, for the reason that every poker chip has a real money value directly transferable into real world currency, and thus that poker wagering is theft and shouldn't exist in a real cash game? If not, then the general principle from which we were supposed to reason to the immorality of Entropia piracy seems to be false by their own lights.
I have a question for you, just a simple yes or no - not a philosophical question. Remember that movie where every year there's one night when everyone is allowed to do anything to anyone without legal consequence, I don't remember the name of the movie atm, sry, but it was quite popular in the day. So the question is, imagine if you end up in that movie on that lawless night. 1. Would you be the bad guy? Everything is allowed and legal, you'll get away with literally anything. 2. Would you defend those who chose to steal, kill and worse since legally they're innocent, again, legally, if we're in that movie, these people did not commit any crimes and could not be held accountable as criminals or even called criminals, by the law they would be innocent.
 
I have a question for you, just a simple yes or no - not a philosophical question. Remember that movie where every year there's one night when everyone is allowed to do anything to anyone without legal consequence, I don't remember the name of the movie atm, sry, but it was quite popular in the day. So the question is, imagine if you end up in that movie on that lawless night. 1. Would you be the bad guy? Everything is allowed and legal, you'll get away with literally anything. 2. Would you defend those who chose to steal, kill and worse since legally they're innocent, again, legally, if we're in that movie, these people did not commit any crimes and could not be held accountable as criminals or even called criminals, by the law they would be innocent.
Purge 👍

We might need one too. 🤣
 
Yes I asked why you compare something, wager in poker, with something, you have to go trough lootable space to travel to another planet.
You decide in a poker game if your cards are good and you want to bet on them that you will win the round. When you travel to another planet in EU you can not opt to go trough lootable space or not so you are forced to enter lootable space.
The unquoted portion of this post seems to be repetitions of questions I've already addressed. You may be best served by reading or rereading my previous posts. I'll clarify what I've said about this quoted portion. I am in no way committed to the idea that Entropia piracy and poker wagering are broadly similar. I have not made any assertions along the lines of "we know that piracy is permissible because it's similar to poker wagering and poker wagering is permissible." Rather, a claim was made that we could infer that Entropia piracy is theft from a more general principle, and I used poker wagering as a counterexample to falsify that principle. If I argue "I know Lily is white because all swans are white and Lily is a swan," and you show me a black swan, it does not rescue my argument if I complain that the black swan is short and Lily is tall, or that the black swan cannot fly and Lily can. Lily and the black swan do not have to be broadly similar; they only have to share the property that the general principle references, being a swan. In this case, I must abandon my initial argument and either change my mind about Lily or formulate a new argument.

As for the point about being forced, you are framing the reward as given in the Entropia case and as coupled with the risk in the poker case. In both cases, players are confronted with risk-reward bundles. In poker, the reward of winning a pot and the risk of wagering are bundled. In Entropia, the reward of accessing a planet or space hunting/mining and the risk of being shot are bundled. In poker, the blind system forces players to accept bundles. In Entropia, nothing forces any player to accept any such bundle.
 
MA dropped the ball by never implementing a bounty type system so there is some type of risk associated with being a pirate. I've seen a couple different types of systems in other games where if you pirate to much then you have limited safe harbor options, or patrol ships attack on site, and others where if you are killed you end up in jail if you are a scallywag until you can post bail or do some time. Each system could have its own license options so bounty hunters aren't penalized for taking care of a malcontent.

It would be interesting to have some sort of ship scanning option. They could also implement contraband for smuggling gameplay as well as faction controlled space (space LGs). NPC pirates so people can boost their policing skills. Ship capture and salvage would be interesting but not sure if the EU mechanics could handle that.
 
I have a question for you, just a simple yes or no - not a philosophical question. Remember that movie where every year there's one night when everyone is allowed to do anything to anyone without legal consequence, I don't remember the name of the movie atm, sry, but it was quite popular in the day. So the question is, imagine if you end up in that movie on that lawless night. 1. Would you be the bad guy? Everything is allowed and legal, you'll get away with literally anything. 2. Would you defend those who chose to steal, kill and worse since legally they're innocent, again, legally, if we're in that movie, these people did not commit any crimes and could not be held accountable as criminals or even called criminals, by the law they would be innocent.
Question 2 seems of broader interest. Question 1 seems more a matter of personal psychology, willpower, character, etc. If I say that something is wrong but that I would do it anyhow, other folks might learn something about my own propensity to fall short of the call of duty, but not much else. I try to do my best to act within the bounds of my moral obligations and prohibitions, and in any given hypothetical situation my hope would be that I'd do so, but of course I don't claim to be perfect. Some of the things you're describing from the movie sound rather severe and alien to everyday decisions about how to act, so I suspect I'd be fine.

Focusing on Question 2, interpreted as I suspect you intend, the simple answer is "no." That is, if the lawless night represented in the movie was to occur in real life, I would not defend all legal actions as morally permissible. The one tricky bit is the phrase "imagine if you end up in that movie on that lawless night;" if instead this is interpreted as "imagine if you end up as an actor in that movie fictionally representing that lawless night," then the simple answer is "yes," I would defend the actors and actresses fictionally representing immoral actions, legal or illegal within that fictional representation, as morally permissible in the real world, at least up to further contextual factors which might change things on a case-specific basis.
 
Focusing on Question 2, interpreted as I suspect you intend, the simple answer is "no." That is, if the lawless night represented in the movie was to occur in real life, I would not defend all legal actions as morally permissible. The one tricky bit is the phrase "imagine if you end up in that movie on that lawless night;" if instead this is interpreted as "imagine if you end up as an actor in that movie fictionally representing that lawless night," then the simple answer is "yes," I would defend the actors and actresses fictionally representing immoral actions, legal or illegal within that fictional representation, as morally permissible in the real world, at least up to further contextual factors which might change things on a case-specific basis.
So to you morality is subjective rather than absolute? How do you define morality then? Say, the lawless night has come and the strong went out to steal from the weak (not gonna get into the other suff from that movie, no point), is stealing okay if it's legal? IRL or not, because even if it's fictional it's promoting or even glorifying crime which could have a real world impact through projection.
 
Why? There are lots of really great well thought out posts in this discussion. Don't try to shut something down just because you're not enjoying it, simply don't read the thread :)
Forgot to queto Omega 🤷‍♂️

It's not about me enjoying the thread or not lol.

There is plenty of good stuff in this thread and generaly speaking in PCF, but dont you get ever tired of overthinking or complicating things?
 
Usualy to extend that kills any intrest to said discussions and they get buried in PCF for couple years until they surface again and loop goes round and round. But nothing changes?
 
Forgot to queto Omega 🤷‍♂️

It's not about me enjoying the thread or not lol.

There is plenty of good stuff in this thread and generaly speaking in PCF, but dont you get ever tired of overthinking or complicating things?

You're not wrong there he is highly intelligent and writes novels that tend to get a little long with the examples... altho I am guilty of that too haha (not the highly intelligent part tho just the long writings)... it is on topic with OP tho I guess it's more of a grayer area than I thought
 
So to you morality is subjective rather than absolute? How do you define morality then? Say, the lawless night has come and the strong went out to steal from the weak (not gonna get into the other suff from that movie, no point), is stealing okay if it's legal? IRL or not, because even if it's fictional it's promoting or even glorifying crime which could have a real world impact through projection.
I would say that morality is, in general, objective rather than subjective (moral values may be objectively right or wrong, moral duties objectively obligated or prohibited, and moral rights objectively possessed or unpossessed, independent of whether the acting moral agent, or even everyone in the world, believes that they are). Of course, the moral status of a stated action is a function of contextual factors (an instance of shooting a gun might be morally permissible if a pile of sand is in its range, but morally prohibited is a person is in its range), and some of those contextual factors may include the agent's beliefs and/or deliverances of conscience, so that contingent on the fiddlier details of the definitions, some subset of moral duties might turn out to be subjective, albeit perhaps dependent on other objective moral duties such as "agents are morally prohibited from violating their own conscience." But I would only propose this case as a sufficient condition to establish a moral prohibition, not a necessary one, and many other occurrences will be entirely objective.

As for whether morality is absolute, I take this question to have a much more arbitrary linguistic dependence. Objective VS subjective moral status is the kind of thing one attributes to a particular (real or hypothetical) occurrence of an action, whereas absolute moral status is the kind of thing one attributes to a collection of such occurrences. I take the question of whether killing is absolutely morally wrong to be asking whether all instances of killing are wrong. I would say that they aren't (self-defense and so forth), and that therefore killing is not absolutely morally wrong, but I would also say that most instances of killing are nonetheless objectively morally wrong. Note that there are at least two trivial ways to establish absolute morality; by tautology and by exhaustive specification. Murder is absolutely wrong, but only because murder is defined as wrongful killing, so we're really just saying that wrongful killing is wrong (wrongful food refrigeration is also wrong; we don't learn much of substance from a tautology). Killing except in context #1, context #2, context #3, ..., context #n is also absolutely wrong, where the n contexts just carve out all of the exceptions by brute force, but this again feels trivial. In general, I don't think morality tends to be best viewed as absolute except in these trivial senses, although I take this to be more a function of the English language and the concepts we group actions according to than moral ontology. The bit where I said morality is objective is more important to moral ontology.

In general, my understanding of morality is pretty firmly in the deontological camp, but I'm not entirely settled on the agent-centered deontology/patient-centered deontology debate. My current view is that both agent-centered deontological objects (moral obligations, moral prohibition, etc.) and patient-centered deontological objects (moral rights) coexist, and that often one may be derived from the other, but I'm not quite sure on the conditions for that to happen (I don't think all moral obligations and prohibitions correspond to moral rights and I don't think all moral right violations are attributable to moral obligation or prohibition violations, but they do seem interrelated in many cases). The agent-centered objects seem more fundamental to morality (even if someone else had a moral right, why should I respect it unless that moral right entails some moral obligation or prohibition of mine?), while moral rights seem more directly amenable to establishing legal rights (the mere fact that I violate my moral obligation or prohibition does not seem to constitute a just reason for another person or group to stop me, unless in doing so I also violate the rights of another).

Unfortunately I'm also not quite settled on a holistic theory of property rights. It seems at least some notion of property rights belongs among the class of moral rights, suggesting that governance structures recognize and defend rather than create them, but I don't think this can account for all notions of property in the modern world. I take the ownership right over a stock index derivative to be created by financial institutions, not recognized or defended as a natural moral right. Stealing a stock index derivative is still objective morally wrong, it's just that the boundaries of what constitutes ownership and stealing by extension emerge or are defined as part of the operations of a system, rather than existing prior to it (as the right to life, right to liberty, certain property rights, etc., presumably have all ingredients they need to exist and apply logically prior to the systems which defend them). I don't find this much more mysterious or problematic to the classification of morality as objective than the idea that the boundaries of what constitutes an objectively morally wrongful shooting depend on whether someone has walked in front of the gun.

To reiterate on the more applied note, stealing in real life is bad, don't do it (even if legal, although legal frameworks may define the boundaries of some more systemically constructed classes of property), but you can act out stealing in a movie, or play capture the flag or roleplay stealing in a video game where permitted (even if capture the flag or the video game are played for real money). I don't buy the bit about fictional representations of wrongful acts being generically wrongful due to their potential to influence others to act wrongfully. There may be fringe cases in which fictional representations are specifically constructed to manipulate particular persons or groups to commit moral rights violations, but a category like "glorifying crime" will be several orders of magnitude too broad to get me on board with that kind of blanket utilitarian critique of art.
 
I would say that morality is, in general, objective rather than subjective (moral values may be objectively right or wrong, moral duties objectively obligated or prohibited, and moral rights objectively possessed or unpossessed, independent of whether the acting moral agent, or even everyone in the world, believes that they are). Of course, the moral status of a stated action is a function of contextual factors (an instance of shooting a gun might be morally permissible if a pile of sand is in its range, but morally prohibited is a person is in its range), and some of those contextual factors may include the agent's beliefs and/or deliverances of conscience, so that contingent on the fiddlier details of the definitions, some subset of moral duties might turn out to be subjective, albeit perhaps dependent on other objective moral duties such as "agents are morally prohibited from violating their own conscience." But I would only propose this case as a sufficient condition to establish a moral prohibition, not a necessary one, and many other occurrences will be entirely objective.

As for whether morality is absolute, I take this question to have a much more arbitrary linguistic dependence. Objective VS subjective moral status is the kind of thing one attributes to a particular (real or hypothetical) occurrence of an action, whereas absolute moral status is the kind of thing one attributes to a collection of such occurrences. I take the question of whether killing is absolutely morally wrong to be asking whether all instances of killing are wrong. I would say that they aren't (self-defense and so forth), and that therefore killing is not absolutely morally wrong, but I would also say that most instances of killing are nonetheless objectively morally wrong. Note that there are at least two trivial ways to establish absolute morality; by tautology and by exhaustive specification. Murder is absolutely wrong, but only because murder is defined as wrongful killing, so we're really just saying that wrongful killing is wrong (wrongful food refrigeration is also wrong; we don't learn much of substance from a tautology). Killing except in context #1, context #2, context #3, ..., context #n is also absolutely wrong, where the n contexts just carve out all of the exceptions by brute force, but this again feels trivial. In general, I don't think morality tends to be best viewed as absolute except in these trivial senses, although I take this to be more a function of the English language and the concepts we group actions according to than moral ontology. The bit where I said morality is objective is more important to moral ontology.

In general, my understanding of morality is pretty firmly in the deontological camp, but I'm not entirely settled on the agent-centered deontology/patient-centered deontology debate. My current view is that both agent-centered deontological objects (moral obligations, moral prohibition, etc.) and patient-centered deontological objects (moral rights) coexist, and that often one may be derived from the other, but I'm not quite sure on the conditions for that to happen (I don't think all moral obligations and prohibitions correspond to moral rights and I don't think all moral right violations are attributable to moral obligation or prohibition violations, but they do seem interrelated in many cases). The agent-centered objects seem more fundamental to morality (even if someone else had a moral right, why should I respect it unless that moral right entails some moral obligation or prohibition of mine?), while moral rights seem more directly amenable to establishing legal rights (the mere fact that I violate my moral obligation or prohibition does not seem to constitute a just reason for another person or group to stop me, unless in doing so I also violate the rights of another).

Unfortunately I'm also not quite settled on a holistic theory of property rights. It seems at least some notion of property rights belongs among the class of moral rights, suggesting that governance structures recognize and defend rather than create them, but I don't think this can account for all notions of property in the modern world. I take the ownership right over a stock index derivative to be created by financial institutions, not recognized or defended as a natural moral right. Stealing a stock index derivative is still objective morally wrong, it's just that the boundaries of what constitutes ownership and stealing by extension emerge or are defined as part of the operations of a system, rather than existing prior to it (as the right to life, right to liberty, certain property rights, etc., presumably have all ingredients they need to exist and apply logically prior to the systems which defend them). I don't find this much more mysterious or problematic to the classification of morality as objective than the idea that the boundaries of what constitutes an objectively morally wrongful shooting depend on whether someone has walked in front of the gun.

To reiterate on the more applied note, stealing in real life is bad, don't do it (even if legal, although legal frameworks may define the boundaries of some more systemically constructed classes of property), but you can act out stealing in a movie, or play capture the flag or roleplay stealing in a video game where permitted (even if capture the flag or the video game are played for real money). I don't buy the bit about fictional representations of wrongful acts being generically wrongful due to their potential to influence others to act wrongfully. There may be fringe cases in which fictional representations are specifically constructed to manipulate particular persons or groups to commit moral rights violations, but a category like "glorifying crime" will be several orders of magnitude too broad to get me on board with that kind of blanket utilitarian critique of art.






Till there is a red zone clearly defining the borders, and they fix the lootable pvp notifications I am on the fence. Known pirates/shooters are always KoS, but everyone else I'll give the first shot too.
 
It would be really nice if both had to take the same risk in PvP as in other games that have been cited as examples by big proponents of lootable areas.

This would also make PvP more exciting and adrenaline-filled for the PK players who have to carry the loot themselves. It would also be an incentive to train PvP skills for miners and hunters, and they might even have an incentive to invest in PK weapons and gear to fight back when attacked, perhaps even boosting the economy in the EU.
 
It would be really nice if both had to take the same risk in PvP as in other games that have been cited as examples by big proponents of lootable areas.

This would also make PvP more exciting and adrenaline-filled for the PK players who have to carry the loot themselves. It would also be an incentive to train PvP skills for miners and hunters, and they might even have an incentive to invest in PK weapons and gear to fight back when attacked, perhaps even boosting the economy in the EU.

Agreed on the incentive structure for pvp in space being jacked. Most pirates don't keep lootables on them if they know they are going to engage in pvp. Which means if the defender wins he is still out 5-8ped for destroying the attacker. In landside pvp at least you get toxic shot loot to recoup some ammo/decay costs. MA should definitely do similar with the ammo spent destroying a vehicle.
 
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