Why Mindark going bankrupt would be great for EU ...

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Beautiful SerraAngel Angel
Dear fellow Entropians,

after having been part of this community for over 7 years now and running a company myself irl I was wondering the other night how great it would be, if MA was to go bankrupt.

Fact:
This game has been, is and will likely be quite unique amongst all other mmorpg's


Having something unique that people actually want is something any business would dream off. Yet MA's annual reports have been catastrophic for the past 3x years running... and that is not because people have stopped depositing, it is because of the cataclysmic way MA runs their company. I will quickly bullet point what I meant by that

- Next to communication with their clients (us)
- Next to no information about updates, game development etc.
- Lies, lies and more lies regarding many aspects of the game (taming)
- No idea how to run a business (which company in Sweden would buy a castle in Germany?)

... this list could be carried on for pages. Those players who have been with us for some time will happily list hundreds of other aspects in which MA has failed utterly.

So you might think, hell no one is perfect and I agree with you, but MA's idea of running this show is so far from perfect as humans are to settle mars (although on that point I am open for discussion, hehe). In fact, MA has managed this game so badly that they had to sell 60.000 CLD's for 1k ped giving out 20-30% roi on them. No what functioning company would raise money for ~25% when my business could borrow money for under 3% atm (sure, I sit in Germany they in Sweden, but interest rates are not that different)? I can tell you who would do something ... Someone who is desperate and that is exactly what MA is imo.

Sooo .... What would happen if MA does indeed goes bankrupt?


From my point of view there is a lot of cash in this world just waiting to be venture capital and I cannot see this game dying any time in the future as it has over 10 years of tradition, as it actually runs smoothly and, lets face it, as it isn't a bad concept to start off with.

So from my point of view we would have an investor (or a group) stepping up the table and taking over and unless that is a blind three-legged donkey they cannot do worse imo. The longer I think about, the less likely it is in my eyes that MA will survive (unless they start thinking like a business and act like a business).

Feel free to discuss

Angel
 
Iv had the same thought for a long time, yet they didnt do that a secound time so far. (i still think they will go bankroupt once again)
 
I doubt the only reason to sell those cld's was to raise money.
If you would be a potential planet partner, how would you like to have to compete against the main company?
 
There is also a high probability that either:
1) there won't be any investors interested or,
2) only investors you'll find are Next Island type investors...


p.s. CLDs is a calypso thing, not platform. Don't mix 2 things together, either talk about PP or the Platform developer. Ofc, they are tied together, but there is always the chance that only one of them goes bankrupt and the other one keeps going.
 
- Next to communication with their clients (us)
- Next to no information about updates, game development etc.
- Lies, lies and more lies regarding many aspects of the game (taming)
- No idea how to run a business (which company in Sweden would buy a castle in Germany?)

May be we have to twist our brain to tink that we are not MA clients. MA clients are PP and we are clients of PP. So information, communication and smiles must come from PPs. But again in RCE game giving too much information outside of the game might be a problem.
And EU business is very complex business and like it or not I doubt there is company in the world more prepared to run it. MA make mistakes? - Sure. EU is not perfect? - Sure. Can anyone run it better? I doubt it.
I tried playing other games this week. I can't play them for more than few minutes, so boring and same old same old.
So to answer your question. No it wont be great for EU if MA goes bankrupt. I doubt someone else will run it better. It's way harder to run than other MMOs.
 
May be we have to twist our brain to tink that we are not MA clients. MA clients are PP and we are clients of PP. So information, communication and smiles must come from PPs. But again in RCE game giving too much information outside of the game might be a problem.
And EU business is very complex business and like it or not I doubt there is company in the world more prepared to run it. MA make mistakes? - Sure. EU is not perfect? - Sure. Can anyone run it better? I doubt it.
I tried playing other games this week. I can't play them for more than few minutes, so boring and same old same old.
So to answer your question. No it wont be great for EU if MA goes bankrupt. I doubt someone else will run it better. It's way harder to run than other MMOs.

i agree with everything axe murderer says (i usually do anyway)

I tried another 2 mmorpgs this week - got bored and came back to EU
I believe MA's secrecy over development is absolutely essential to the economy in the game. Take these 2 examples.

EU announces taming will be back in the next VU - what happens to the value of whips, they will sky rocket,. Now I dont see them for sale often but I do recall that one player has a mall shop where the walls are covered in the things (and they are not for sale). If any prior indication is given of the reintroduction of taming this avatar is going to be sat on a gold mine. Maybe he sellls, maybe he doesnt but you better believe the value of whips on AH will go through the roof as soon as the announcment comes. By keeping the info secret the player base doesnt know what is going on and prices of whips wont change until taming is actually implemented, its like every trader on the stock exchange having insider information.

Same goes for spaceship and hangar owners, my soc friend has a pathfinder, she has taken a gamble and purchased a hangar hoping that sometime in the future she may be be able to land her ship their. No guarantees ofc and it is a gamble. If we knew for sure that hangars were coming back then again their price would skyrocket before the implementation. Real economies cant perform in that way, they are reactionary by their nature and driven by lots of other external sources.

It is like knowing 6 months before a wheat harvest that it will be a poor one. If you knew that you could corner the market in flour and make a massive profit. Even in RL trading even a couple of days notice on information like that can have a dramatic affect on an items value (its called insider trading). Imagine if everyone had access to this information so far in advance, the market would collapse as the value of bread became worth its weight in gold.

I dont disagree with OP there are some serious issues that the player base has with MA, space summoning is currently a very hot topic. I dont think bankruptcy would help anyone particularly players who love the game. Another point of note is that MA are really in uncharted water, EU is almost an experiment, nothing like it has existed before and there is no rule book for it. What is worth noting is that whilst many other games which started out as subscription have now moved towards the micro transaction free to play template originally adopted by MA. The beauty of this system is you can pay as little or much as you like and just like in RL if you have the money you can have the flash stuff, but if you dont have the money you can still be involved at whatever level you can afford.

Some players complain that the game is too costly and to be fair it is, but this helps to keep away the younger players who seem to swarm over the other mmorpg's, EU is great because the player base is more mature and this is down to cost.

Sorry for lamenting but comments and discussions were invited
 
EU announces taming will be back in the next VU - what happens to the value of whips, they will sky rocket,. [...] By keeping the info secret the player base doesnt know what is going on and prices of whips wont change until taming is actually implemented, its like every trader on the stock exchange having insider information.

Not necessarily. MA can launch a lot of new whips once (if) they launch taming, including some very low TT/damage UL ones for small mobs as they did with laser guns. Also, keeping the A-xxx upgrades secret did not stopped few people to clean up AH of amps as soon as servers were up, barely anyone had time to reach Camp Carter and realize what and how.

Regarding the OP - I always wondered how MA can operate with those numbers they reported for so long. No bank will lend them money and IF they lend, they would seize assets quickly in case of no payment.

As such, if next week CLD would pay nothing, still MA has some room to move, months if not years - players do not have repossession agents readily available. Half of CLD were already bought back from the big investor, so for whatever reason they needed cash fast last year, they got it.

But I'm thinking that MA cooks the books a little, nothing illegal mostly grey: they can outsource services abroad (i.e. support), paying a hefty sum towards that company so it goes into the red back home. Does not pay any taxes for profit in Sweden, and eventually pays peanuts or not at all in Mexico (for sure would be some tax incentives to attract new businesses, at least for the first few years)

Sadly financial wizardies cannot fix poor communication, lack of speed in fixing things and a tendency to tolerate abuse by players towards other players.
 
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Great if: a more driven company who had recruitment and players being content in mind took over.

Bad if: Ma inforced the maximum 6 months deposits worth incase of bankruptcy, unforeseen events and even the wrath of god(yeap god-guy is in the ToU). closed the game and then cashed out moving to Bahamas


In which case I'd get nothing and if we are to believe even star wouldn't see a cent
 
Great if: a more driven company who had recruitment and players being content in mind took over.

Bad if: Ma inforced the maximum 6 months deposits worth incase of bankruptcy, unforeseen events and even the wrath of god(yeap god-guy is in the ToU). closed the game and then cashed out moving to Bahamas


In which case I'd get nothing and if we are to believe even star wouldn't see a cent

If that's the case, I would probably picture Star, xXSqUaLLXx, Deathifier, Buzz, Akoz, etc....All getting together and work up a legal case to chase after MA. (Not to mention, the other PPs would also probably be doing the same as well)
 
If that's the case, I would probably picture Star, xXSqUaLLXx, Deathifier, Buzz, Akoz, etc....All getting together and work up a legal case to chase after MA. (Not to mention, the other PPs would also probably be doing the same as well)

I'm fairly sure that the ones who play this for profit already has withdrawn a big part.

Some players probably as a "monthly allowance", and other players (oldtimes who have sold out) have a bulk of their PEDs already out of game. Let's say some old players once had imk2, mm, 10k skills and mod fap. By selling that imk2 they probably got nice peds, going down 10k to 8k skills or 12k to 10k skills doesn't change much but you sell out like 90% TT-wise of your skills, and the mod fap maybe traded in for imp fap+peds between.
 
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While I personally do not agree with many of the statements and assumptions in your opening post (and certainly not with your proposition that MindArk going bankrupt could in any way be good for Entropia Universe, current participants, or more generally the MMO RCE concept) I noticed that many of your points could easily be used to persuade a potential investor or venture capitalist.

If I take a few excerpts from the opening post (leaving out any references to bankruptcy of the current company):

Fact:
This game has been, is and will likely be quite unique amongst all other mmorpg's

[...snip...]

Having something unique that people actually want is something any business would dream off.
[...snip...]

From my point of view there is a lot of cash in this world just waiting to be venture capital and I cannot see this game dying any time in the future as it has over 10 years of tradition, as it actually runs smoothly and, lets face it, as it isn't a bad concept to start off with.

[...snip...]

So from my point of view we would have an investor (or a group) stepping up the table and taking over and unless that is a blind three-legged donkey they cannot do worse imo.

my first thought was:

If you truly believe all of these things, why wait for a MA bankruptcy?

Gather up some investors, a load of financing, and approach MindArk with a partnership offer, or even a buyout offer.
 
If you truly believe all of these things, why wait for a MA bankruptcy?

Gather up some investors, a load of financing, and approach MindArk with a partnership offer, or even a buyout offer.

i am uncharted territory here..... i agree with 711 :wise:

its very easy to criticise, much harder to do, if ppl think they can do better make MA an offer and do eeet!
 
Fact:
This game has been, is and will likely be quite unique amongst all other mmorpg's

to be honest, there's another RCE game coming out with some name like aftertime diaries or some such shizzle, one of them groupfunded ones apparently. American company doing Entropia type stuff but better, hmmm... sad times for MA ahead. Also I think there's a few games out that are crowdfunded that one can invest in, one of them has got over 15m US$ even though initial target was 3m, called RSI or something. Some space stuff anyways. If MA just goes through the motions after TEN year as finished, it'll be fucked, simple as that. People are only just coming back after VU10 was too much for their systems but graphics doesn't make up for elementary problems. Unless I'm stupidly lucky again, it's likely I'll be selling out once I've hit Combat Sense, when 85% of the game are consistantly losing, its hard to justify how the game is viable anymore.
 
While I personally do not agree with many of the statements and assumptions in your opening post (and certainly not with your proposition that MindArk going bankrupt could in any way be good for Entropia Universe, current participants, or more generally the MMO RCE concept) I noticed that many of your points could easily be used to persuade a potential investor or venture capitalist.

If I take a few excerpts from the opening post (leaving out any references to bankruptcy of the current company):



my first thought was:

If you truly believe all of these things, why wait for a MA bankruptcy?

Gather up some investors, a load of financing, and approach MindArk with a partnership offer, or even a buyout offer.


Nice thinking 99 (erm 711) ... hehe.

A few problems with that ... From a business perspective it would be unsuitable to form a partnership with MA since I regard MA not capable of doing a good job in the first place. So the only thing left would be the takeover approach and I am afraid, that this is not really my area of expertise :)

But I would surely cheer if someone with the financial backing and the expertise would do so. I have withdrawn more money in the past 2x years then an average person earns in Germany as a result of my declining trust in MA, with the right ppl at the helm, positive annual reports, more communication etc etc. I would quite happily reinvest a few thousand Euro's

Angel
 
This is also my great fear the game is to design a very good game with good pontencial but all signals that the company gives os can usually see only in companies that will soon go bankrupt.
 
Sooo .... What would happen if MA does indeed goes bankrupt?

It's not something to wish for, it's likely to become a mess.

When the car making part of SAAB was going to go bankcrupt, first a small company (a handful of employees, used to making exlusive sports cars) were going to take over. There was nothing from that. Then a bigger dutch company was going to take over. It didn't go too well either. Then a Chinese company wanted to take over, but then it didn't go through because they wouldn't be allowed to make all cars (they wouldn't be allowed to make Saab 9-5 because the former owner general motors was still sitting on the copyright papers and they denied). So, eventually it went bankrupt. The Swedish governemtn had shares in the space part company as collateral and they got the company, that at the time was going well. But after saab went bankrupt, the spare part company went down the drains because the new owners (Swedish gov:t) didn't realize in time that the space part company shared resources, the IT-department, with the bankrupt saab so they suddnently were without IT support (if I remember right). (The part of SAAB that makes airplanes still lives on, they make the military plane "JAS Gripen" for instance. And the company that once was a part of SAAB that made trucks, "Scania".)

So as a mean just to change ownership, bankcruptcy clearly isn't the solution.

Maybe it's just that the staff at MA has had a very long vacation, and that their PR responsible wakes up and says something.

Too bad that it's kind of messy to buying shares over the borders (especially for people in USA I guess), or MA could have a program to sell shares simularily to how CLDs were sold.
 
5. all players are screwed; that's it.

This is what it think of the topic.....
Some people don't understand what they are talking about.


If a company goes bankrupt, they don't have any money and nearly all the cases even if they have some assets that could be sold they never will be able to pay all the loans and liabilities. The players peds and tt value are even a real liability so we would never ever get any money from a bankruptcy, and which company would like to take over EU with our 100milion ped value in game that we could try to withdraw? probably no one so all the players holdings would go "puff".

I don't think many of us would like to loose all our in game equipments, resources and peds. At least I would prefer that MA stays so that I can keep them :laugh:
 
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This is what it think of the topic.....
Some people don't understand what they are talking about.
+60milion ped value in game that we could try to withdraw? probably no one so all the players holdings would go "puff"

If company becomes liquidated, obviously all the part related to "markup" is gone (it's even in the EULA). It means that CLDs, land areas, motherships and mod faps are worth TT, at the most.
 
If company becomes liquidated, obviously all the part related to "markup" is gone (it's even in the EULA). It means that CLDs, land areas, motherships and mod faps are worth TT, at the most.

Hehe, i already said that $ 2.500.000 in CLD is only $25 :laugh:

But ppl, now pending MA bankruptcy ... you're looking for nothing ... for the time being
 
If company becomes liquidated, obviously all the part related to "markup" is gone (it's even in the EULA). It means that CLDs, land areas, motherships and mod faps are worth TT, at the most.

TT value would not help you, TT value is not a real world value and you would not have any claim.
 
I have played since 2003 and I have played countless other games as well and its obvious EU is and always will be Awesome! But I agree it has been operated by noobs since its birth! They have treated the game like a 9-5 company(Sweden time).I think its only a matter of time when a "gaming" company buys it up or kills it buy doing the same thing but a lot better! I have lost all faith with these guys period!
 
Had to smile at many posts.

MA is smarter than many think, and the reason why they survived through the recession. I see the worst possible case is shutting down the entire universe, and reopening it again as a completely new entity.

Sure it would piss many players off especially in-game investors, but given a chance to compete against all players from day zero with a new platform would be very appealing for many, and those that embraced that concept would soon forget their old ava. Plus side for MA, is write off of all in game assets. Trust might be a problem, but it is already in honesty.

Above is the worst case of.

Seriously though, I would imagine the game manages its income and outgoings pretty well platform side, its operation costs and development which can be problematic.

MA has many ways to promote income when they feel like it, be it events, even new items such as vehicles etc, to drive fast income. And they player will pay, if MA needs cash, most of us know that already.

We have the moon coming, and I'm sure much is in the background to develop further. Sure; I think the recession hit hard, although the game is here STILL ten years on, and the players kept it going.

We have no idea what investors MA has outside game that would and continue to throw money at it to keep it alive, I'm sure there're many off-line investors that would keep it rolling for a few more years at least.

There're problems of course in-game to solve, how bad the rollercoaster ride is will be down to MA.

Rick
 
its an interesting idea, but fatally and obviously flawed. the reason why there's no competition, or no one has taken over, its a niche idea that no one (serious) wants to get involved with commercially. if there were venture capitalist waiting, they'd be in by now. someone mentioned the liability above, maybe thats a factor, they dont want to get involved with the complications. the company has limped through the resession on goodwill and burning cash, now they need to come up with a strategy to restart the engines and gain new traction, but i fear the managment have become complacent believing we'll just carry on. staying still is no good for this game, it has to grow, and do so soon. if it comes to bankruptcy im afraid that would be the end, they might be a angel investor come along and buy up the IP and servers and keep it ticking over, but it will be a shadow of itself and a long long way from PE, and probably better off resetting the servers.
 
MA doesn't need to go bankrupt, MA needs a (less greedy) competitor that will keep them on their toes... and hopefully the day will come...
 
I dont think MA going bankrupt would be great at all.

I also disagree (with the exception of Taming) with several of the opening points.

We asked for more communication - we got more communication! Remember the developers blogs (I think there were 5 of them)? They caused players to riot / quit. No great surprise they stopped doing them really. ;)

MA cant give too much information on updates apart from the occasional teaser video as it can affect market values of in-game items.

Yes we've all have ideas how EU could be better, but it would be unfair to forget all the improvements made with each VU (It's not that long ago we had a player register added for example)

Finally, I disagree that they dont listen.


We wanted:

Unlimited friend list - we got one (eventually)
Missions (taken for granted now)
Auction sort, search
Vehicles....
and so on, you can list the changes or look through old VU notes for yourself, theres a lot more than you may think.

After several years, they even removed that controversial Armor equipping fee! :yup:
 
If you really want to change something, buy a deciding amount in MA shares (the real ones, not CLD) and you will then be able to influence things. However, don't think you will be able to directly alter the way things happen: for a change to be made, in a business environment, it usually needs to bring in money, and they prefer direct money over indirect money.
 
Another one of these speculation threads about MA bankrupcy. Ahh well it's about time. I have not seen one of these in a few months.

A bit of advice: Get a job. You have too much time on your hands!
 
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