Why Skills Matter in a TT Loot Theory

[JohnCapital]

Disclaimer: This post is based on the loot theory that the TT of loot received is in direct proportion of TT spent. If you do not believe this theory, then this is simply a nice mental/math exercise, which is fine too.

Let's pretend loot received on average, and over a decent enough time frame is directly proportional to the TT you spend in decay/materials. For purposes of this example, we'll assume loot is 93% of total weapon cost, and defense decay is lost.

Some folks have a problem with this idea, because they think it means skills and eco hunting are rendered moot. Here are some example arguments:

If it is dependent on how much decay/ammo you burn when shooting something, that completely destroys the concept of economical hunting. What's the point when it means you'll get less loot? For that matter it would make damage professions and skills utterly worthless; as long as you're hitting the mob, the extra decay and ammo would go into your own personal loot pool.

1) skill would be totally useless.
2) dmg/pec would be totally useless.
3) markup on (L) guns would not be worth it.

So, let's run some hypothetical numbers to test this idea.

Ladies & Gentlemen! In this corner we have the completely unskilled, yet too-much money endowed player: Noober Mamas Boy. Weighing in with the following skills:

• 88.1 health
• 0 dodger profession
• 0.0/10 HA & CHA

And his opponent, the hard working, highly skilled Big Wampum Player, who sports and impressive set of numbers

• 200 health
• 100 dodger profession
• 10/10 HA & CHA

Both will use the same gear and hunt the same mob. The deadly Daspletor young, with the following impressive stats:

• 7,800 health
• Attacks each 3 sec. (20/min.)
• 150 max dmg/hit

(The dasp attack is actually faster, IIRC, but this is good enough for the simulation.)

Both contestants will use the Mod Merc+A204, enough armor to survive getting one-hit killed, and Freddy the Mod Fapper. An assistant willing to heal w/ his mod fap and charging decay only. (160 heal & only 0.01/heal decay)

Disclaimer 2: Some numbers have been rounded or truncated for ease of reading. The over all effect is tiny. I have the full numbers if anyone requests them.

WEAPON
Dmg/hit

• Noober's lack of skills means his damage will go from 21.75 to 87, making an avg. dmg/hit of 54.375
• Big's maxed mod merc gives 43.5 to 87 dmg range or 65.25 avg/hit

Hit rate

• Noober: 80% (1% crits)
• Big: 90% (2% crits)

Shots needed to kill

• Noober: 7,800/54.375=143.45 shots
• Big: 7,800/62.25=125.30 shots

We'll pretend the crits allow them each to round down, so 143 & 125

Factor in misses

• Noober: 143/0.8=178.75 shots
• Big: 125/0.9=138.8 shots

Round up to 179 & 139

Gun cost

• Noober: 179*0.19611=35.10
• Big: 139*0.19611=27.26

Theoretical loot 93% of weapon cost

• Noober: 35.10*0.93=32.64
• Big: 27.26*.93=25.35

Ah, it seems the challenger is pulling into the lead. He's made more loot, even with his lowly skills. But let's check the actual loss.

TT loss (gun cost minus loot)

• Noober: 35.10-32.64=2.46
• Big: 27.26-25.35=1.91

Uh, oh. Seems even with the same 93% back, Big's TT loss per mob is lower. Even though he got more loot, he spent too much to get it.

Let's check the defense numbers.

ARMOR
In order to keep from getting one-hit killed, Noober will need 150 - 88 = 62 or more of impact protection. Some quick research finds Supremacy (L)+8A (L) provides just the right amount. Plus the (L) will retain full protection every hit. (yes he pays MU, but we'll skip that atm.)

Big Wampum's health, however allows him to come into this with no armor whatsoever, simply relying on the mod fapper to keep him alive.

Their defense cost is going to depend greatly on how long they spent getting hit.

Hunting time

• Noober: 179 shots / 86/min. = 2.08 or 2 min. 4 sec.
• Big: 125 shots / 86/min. = 1.45 or 1 min. 28 sec.

Total attacks from mob

• Noober: 2 min. 4 sec. = 42 attacks
• Big: 1 min. 28 sec. = 30 attacks

But wait. Big's defense skills earns a bonus. We'll say he dodged 8% of the attacks, dropping from 30 to 27 hits. With such high skill, he likely dodged even more, but you get the idea.

Armor+fap costs

• Noober: 0.04549 armor +0.01 fap = 0.05549/hit * 42 hits=2.33
• Big: 27*0.01 = 0.27

Ouch. Over 2 ped in decay to stay alive against that big brute.

Let's see the final numbers, Bob.

Total spend

• Noober: 35.10 gun + 2.33 defense =37.43
• Big: 27.26 gun + 0.27 defense = 27.53

Total loss

• Noober: 2.46 unpaid part of gun bill + 2.33 defense = 4.79
• Big: 1.91 unpaid part of gun bill + 0.27 defense = 2.18

Big Wampum Player may have got lower loot, but he also lost less than half of his unskilled rival.

So, what do each of these have to do to break even?

MU needed to break even

• Noober: 37.43 total spend / 32.64 loot = 115% avg. MU needed
• Big: 27.53 total spend / 25.35 loot = 109% avg. MU needed

So, the uber can sell their loot for cheaper, and still come out ahead.

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!!
The uber saved most of his money by not needing armor. What if he wore the same armor the n00ber did?

No problem. We'll run those numbers right here.

27 hits * 0.04549 armor = 1.23 + 0.27 fap = 1.50 total defense bill. Still lower than Noober's 2.33 defense bill

Total loss = 3.41/mob (compared to noober's 4.79)

Big Wampum now needs to sell his loot for an avg of 113% to break even. Still lower than 115%.


What about (L) guns, etc.?
Based on this example, I'm willing to pay a reasonable markup on an HL15(L) because it will kill faster than my Karma Killer, thus, lowering my defense bill.

And speaking of defense bill, many (L) armors have lower decay/hit than their UL versions, so again, the MU is still viable.

--edit--
Forgot to mention about eco.
Eco (meaning stretching your budget in the right ways) does matter, for the simple fact that loot is not constant, and dry spells can have a way of sucking your peds away before you hit that nice one that brings you back to even(ish).

With our two hunters here, imagine they both have 2,000 ped to put toward ammo & decay

2,000 / cost/kill

• Noober: 2,000 ped lasts 2,000/37.43 = 53 mobs
• Big: 2,000 ped lasts 2,000/27.53 = 72 mobs

So the uber guy spreads the same cost over more mobs, making it much more likely that he'll hit the hof that covers his losses.

Noober will eventually hof big too, but he'll be depositing a few times first.
--/edit--


Apply this too mining and hunting

Mining
Noober Mamas Boy heads out with his TT finders and gets his 90% return, and he even finds the occasional narc, alice or some other decent MU stuff. However, lyst and oil are also a BIG portion of what he finds.

But Big Wampum Player also gets 90% return. Yes a little lyst/oil is found, but much more of the narc/alice, plus the hits of high MU stuff, like ruga, dunkel, etc. that Noober simply can't get yet.

I've done tests (test #2 in this case) and am willing to pay MU on (L) finders due to their ability to avoid lyst/oil more and find the higher MU rares.

Crafting
Noober tries to craft T20 faps to sell, even though he technically doesn't have the skills. Surprise, surprise, he gets some successes, and a 90% return, same as the uber.

However, Uber's skills allow much more full successes instead of near success, meaning he'll be selling more faps, while his rival mostly has expensively crafted residue.

Bottom line: Skills help. Everyone's on equal footing. It's not gambling. Ubers still pay their fair share of MA's bills. (due to higher cost/hour playing) And yes, it's a bad idea to hunt or craft something too big for your skill range.



NOTE:
Quick check of my numbers. for the uber, I calculated a weapon cost of 27.26 taking 1 min. 28 sec. Let's see what the experts say:

My usualy Hunt looks like : 2-3 minutes to kill a Daspy young using ModMerc, avrg 25 Ped+ a lil bit armor/Fap decay

Close enough for me. However, if you wish, please double check any/all numbers. If you find a mistake that could change the outcome in favor of the noob, please let me know.

 

[Az Bloodz]

If it does depend on TT spent why exclude armor/fap decay?

 

[remontoire]

If it does depend on TT spent why exclude armor/fap decay?

Because that is part of why skills matter and why more skilled players will be coming out ahead in even a seemingly no win scenario where you loot decay back.

 

[JohnCapital]

If it does depend on TT spent why exclude armor/fap decay?

Basically what Remontoire said. Also there have been a few tests done that suggest you do not get armor/fap decay back. (Snippets can be found here and there on EF, plus knowing who to talk to) The tests came back with loot proportional to weapon usage over the course of multiple hunts, but changing armors (and thus decay) showed no indications of affecting anything.

However, changing weapons does seem to have quite the change on loot.

One affects loot, the other does not.

Again, this is all theory based on my interpretation of tests done by multiple people. So I could be way off of course.

 

[Futurama]

So in the end it all comes down to keeping the defense bills as low as possible...

 

[DoubleWolf]

Pretty much what was going on in my head, but you laid out the numbers for it. Good work!

 

[malasuerte]

Great explanation, sticky this. +rep to you

 

[PrinceYumil]

All you have demonstrated is that the noob can't fight an uber mob as well the uber skilled player can. Of that, there is no question. But if you did a simulation on any midlevel mob, or even highish level mob, the noob could keep up with the uber player by using a bigger gun. Yes, he will "lose" more per mob, so he will have to hunt less mobs. But not that much less, maybe 3/4 as many mobs, and he will spend the same amount and get the same amount back. And that is comparing a noob to an uber, if you compare a noob to a level 30 hit/damage player, it becomes even closer.

As far as health goes, that obviously remains important no matter what, for the reasons you pointed out. I was only talking about the damage skills (and if missed shots count towards your loot, the hit skills are worthless as well). According to your theory, as long as the noob does the same damage per second as the skilled player, he can fight the same mobs and get the same amount of return. Furthermore an (L) weapon would be useless to everyone. You'd be better off buying a UL gun with equal damage per second because at least that retains its value or maybe even appreciates, while markup that you pay on (L) guns is lost forever.

I don't subscribe to this theory because I think MA would realize all these consequences and wouldn't implement a system that makes so many skills, professions, and items, essentially worthless. It makes more sense that loot is determined by damage done, which would still retain the importance of skills and eco weapons.

 

[Einstein]

So in the end it all comes down to keeping the defense bills as low as possible...

yep.

The only thing proven here is that the uber has a faster kill rate. In the end the return rate does not change.
If they both shoot 1m ped ammo, they will come out with the same return.

HP and defensive skills according to this theory are the only skills that can really affect your return rate.

 

[noiseless]

Crafting
Noober tries to craft T20 amps to sell, even though he technically doesn't have the skills [...]

T20 amps?

Anyway, I've allways believed that return is based on tt spent, that's why I avoid using (L) weapons

 

[Thedarksnw]

Nice analisys + rep.

 

[remontoire]

As far as health goes, that obviously remains important no matter what, for the reasons you pointed out. I was only talking about the damage skills (and if missed shots count towards your loot, the hit skills are worthless as well). According to your theory, as long as the noob does the same damage per second as the skilled player, he can fight the same mobs and get the same amount of return. Furthermore an (L) weapon would be useless to everyone. You'd be better off buying a UL gun with equal damage per second because at least that retains its value or maybe even appreciates, while markup that you pay on (L) guns is lost forever.

Fine, so lets look at level 30 vs noob. Lets give the level 30 a HL8(L) he just maxed and the noob a EWE EP-45 Hunter (that the rich noob bought for tt+600 ped), guns that have the same dps when maxed. The noob will get 15.23-58 damage for 26.1 hp/sec and 2.119 hp/pec, while the pro gets 33.1 hp/sec and 2.771 hp/pec after markup. For same damage dealt (and same playtime), the pro pays 30% less, which more than compensates for the markup on the gun via additional eco. After 1M PED ammo spent, the (L) gun using pro will be considerably better off simply on decay.

At level 30 hit / damage, EWE EP-45 Hunter has eco of 2.294, and to match that, HL8(L) would need to have a markup of over 250%. As long as you do not pay that much markup, HL8(L) is more eco at level 30 and so you do not lose markup - you have additional savings despite markup. At level 70, you need to pay 165% markup on HL8(L) to match EP-45.

The one model where you are better off with unlimited non-sibs the is one where you are best off hunting with a Mann MPH DLxE with its inglorious 1.5 hp/pec @ level 100 or Clericdagger 3B.

 

[Falagor]

All you have demonstrated is that the noob can't fight an uber mob as well the uber skilled player can. Of that, there is no question. But if you did a simulation on any midlevel mob, or even highish level mob, the noob could keep up with the uber player by using a bigger gun. Yes, he will "lose" more per mob, so he will have to hunt less mobs. But not that much less, maybe 3/4 as many mobs, and he will spend the same amount and get the same amount back. And that is comparing a noob to an uber, if you compare a noob to a level 30 hit/damage player, it becomes even closer.

As far as health goes, that obviously remains important no matter what, for the reasons you pointed out. I was only talking about the damage skills (and if missed shots count towards your loot, the hit skills are worthless as well). According to your theory, as long as the noob does the same damage per second as the skilled player, he can fight the same mobs and get the same amount of return. Furthermore an (L) weapon would be useless to everyone. You'd be better off buying a UL gun with equal damage per second because at least that retains its value or maybe even appreciates, while markup that you pay on (L) guns is lost forever.

I don't subscribe to this theory because I think MA would realize all these consequences and wouldn't implement a system that makes so many skills, professions, and items, essentially worthless. It makes more sense that loot is determined by damage done, which would still retain the importance of skills and eco weapons.

Hunting bigger mobs "usually" means possible loot with higher markup and only way of making profit is on markup.

And my personal calculation show that loot is in % back (for me actually its ~84%). But i counted in everything: amo, decay on gun, healing decay and armor decay - now i think it might have been a mistake . For hunting it was ~80% for mining ~87% for crafting ~84% (most cycled on crafting).

Here is question to JohnCapital:
What do you think (personal opinion) about healing decay. Is it included in personal loot (consider also that chips use amo for healing )?
If yes - then ANY healing service is just best way of pumping up personal loot pool (any healers that can confirm this in public)?

Also most important question is: how this works on teams?
12 person team loots an item (lets say it was 120ped global) and the item is (L). Loot is stack share (so in theory most fair one) but only one person gets the item.
Should he keep it for himself because this just "substracted" 120peds from his personal loot pool. Or mayby it substracted proportionally to dmg dealt from each member and the item should be split.

This is why i do not join any teams latly - not to ruin measuring of the TT % return.

Also another notice (only my notice, speculations and intuition):
it tends to behave like this: you use certain amount of PEDs for hunt (lets say 1000peds). Small part of it is added to the loot pool right when you spend it (i would say ~200). And second part after some time (about ~700, usually after 3-15 days from my observation).
This causes really bad hunt/mining/crafting run folowed by a bit better perioid. Also this may be explanation why people tend to notice better return after taking some break from Entropia.
Of course this is just my observation - no prooofs, and statistics i have are too short.

Just my two pec - and i agree that skills matter but in very small way (like JohnCaptial showed it).

Falagor

 

[Az Bloodz]

Because that is part of why skills matter and why more skilled players will be coming out ahead in even a seemingly no win scenario where you loot decay back.

Yeah I know that. Just wanted to know if there are any hint because this theory seems just made up out of the blue.

Basically what Remontoire said. Also there have been a few tests done that suggest you do not get armor/fap decay back. (Snippets can be found here and there on EF, plus knowing who to talk to) The tests came back with loot proportional to weapon usage over the course of multiple hunts, but changing armors (and thus decay) showed no indications of affecting anything.

However, changing weapons does seem to have quite the change on loot.

Ok now I want to know who tested this and where I can find these test. I've seen your 1 Run overamped and I think I've also seen your 5 (?) runs using different weapons. However if you don't want to become EF's Next Legion you should gather some real data/provide some other tests or just let this die.

Great explanation, sticky this. +rep to you

Sticky the least tested theory so far. Can imagine where your head is atm.



Sorry but this does exactly sound like Legion who heard about the Swedish inspector and based a theory on this. You did 1 overamped run and also think you've figured it all out. Why not doing a second, third, fourth run? Also I would like to know after how many PEDs of ammo I will have the exact TT Return as someone using totally different weapon setup since it seems to vary a lot (me 100k cycled he probably more than 2 Million).

 

[jod]

Ok now I want to know who tested this and where I can find these test. I've seen your 1 Run overamped and I think I've also seen your 5 (?) runs using different weapons. However if you don't want to become EF's Next Legion you should gather some real data/provide some other tests or just let this die.

Just read any hunting log that has over 50k cycled and minus the defensive decay and MU and you'll find it usually falls in the 90% return range.

 

[remontoire]

Yeah I know that. Just wanted to know if there are any hint because this theory seems just made up out of the blue.

Well, see - this is not the theory or the theory thread, this is an explanation as to why and how skills still matter in a hypothetical variant of Entropia Universe where you do loot gun+amp decay plus ammo back. I think the theory discussion should happen in the different thread, leaving this one just for the "importance of skills in that variant of EU" discussion.

For the record, I don't think you get decay back (or that the returns are really primarily based on what you spend). But this is not really relevant to this thread.

 

[Az Bloodz]

Just read any hunting log that has over 50k cycled and minus the defensive decay and MU and you'll find it usually falls in the 90% return range.

It falls in the 85% - 95% range which is pretty wide. Now we need to find out is it damage done ore TT spent.

 

[Jennson]

The calculation is based only on the assumption of same tt return per PED spent in TT ( offensive decay). When the base return on eco is only a few percent different it would make the example even more extreme to the benefit of the pro.
But basically it doesn't change the calculation itself under the given premiss. Personally i think from my own tracks the eco of the weapon still affects base return also. Not in dozen of % but a small bit and in the long run this can affect your PED Card massively.

But that's just my opinion which makes the provided calculation not less worth.

 

[Meg]

An interesting read and follow-up commentary. Thanks.

 

[shoti]

even i didn't remeber there were any definitive proove that %returns is fixed with TT spent, still what JC performed is strange. What is the pupose to noob and uber use same weapon. There are beter L solutions for noob and unL for uber as in armours and weapons. If they optimalize they gear to their skil will loot be evening for both of them ?

 

[Futurama]

I agree partially with what JC is writing lately with his theories, but i still believe that unmaxed weapons will be less economical than the same weapon maxed. I`m quite positive that the noob with 0/10 will get a lot less than those 93% tt return (loot vs ammo/amp/gun).

 

[Leona]

Sorry but this does exactly sound like Legion who heard about the Swedish inspector and based a theory on this. You did 1 overamped run and also think you've figured it all out. Why not doing a second, third, fourth run?

Az, there is a big difference between someone who claims he figured "it" out without the slightest evidence and someone who just brings something up for discussion and supports it with some maths and small samples.

I can't see John claiming anything here beside the obvious maths.

 

[Az Bloodz]

I can't see John claiming anything here beside the obvious maths.

Well his maths are based on a theory based on exactly one run.

 

[PrinceYumil]

Fine, so lets look at level 30 vs noob. Lets give the level 30 a HL8(L) he just maxed and the noob a EWE EP-45 Hunter (that the rich noob bought for tt+600 ped), guns that have the same dps when maxed. The noob will get 15.23-58 damage for 26.1 hp/sec and 2.119 hp/pec, while the pro gets 33.1 hp/sec and 2.771 hp/pec after markup. For same damage dealt (and same playtime), the pro pays 30% less, which more than compensates for the markup on the gun via additional eco. After 1M PED ammo spent, the (L) gun using pro will be considerably better off simply on decay.

At level 30 hit / damage, EWE EP-45 Hunter has eco of 2.294, and to match that, HL8(L) would need to have a markup of over 250%. As long as you do not pay that much markup, HL8(L) is more eco at level 30 and so you do not lose markup - you have additional savings despite markup. At level 70, you need to pay 165% markup on HL8(L) to match EP-45.

The one model where you are better off with unlimited non-sibs the is one where you are best off hunting with a Mann MPH DLxE with its inglorious 1.5 hp/pec @ level 100 or Clericdagger 3B.

I have reconsidered it more and I think you are partially right. However, consider this scenario:

Noob: Maddox IV + Beast = 38.0 dps
Lvl 25: Isis HL6 + A104 = 36.5 dps

The noob's total markup is about 800 peds. The A104 is about TT+120, while a full TT HL6 is about TT+60, and that 60 is gone forever unlike the noob's gear which he can sell for the same markup as he paid for it.

But then also consider that it would cost 3350+ peds for a noob to chip up to level 30 damage and hit, and a lot of that is lost forever because if he tried to chip out he would have to buy ESIs and lose 10% of his skills. I guess he will have to chip up some anyway to replace the extra health that the lvl 25 has from handgun and courage and whatever else, so those skills might retain some value. But 38 dps is a enough to hunt a wide range of mobs.

Unfortunately, Maddox IV appears to be the highest dps gun without an exorbitant price tag, since MA seems intent on phasing out the UL guns. I guess if it continues and the higher damage unlimited guns go away then you will have to have skills to deal a lot of damage.

 

[JohnCapital]

OK, lots to respond here. Let's see if I can cover as much as possible.

HP and defensive skills according to this theory are the only skills that can really affect your return rate.

Actually, if you notice, it's the better offensive skills that helps make a big difference. The better dmg/sec means less time getting attacked.

T20 amps?

Oops. Meant to say T20 faps. Sorry. Fixed.

Anyway, I've allways believed that return is based on tt spent, that's why I avoid using (L) weapons

Don't rule them out completely. If you run some theoretical numbers, you find the higher dmg/sec can reduce defense bills enough to matter. (If TT return is based on weapon cost only. More on that later)

Here is question to JohnCapital:
What do you think (personal opinion) about healing decay. Is it included in personal loot (consider also that chips use amo for healing )?
If yes - then ANY healing service is just best way of pumping up personal loot pool (any healers that can confirm this in public)?

There's debate about this. Here are two examples:

I am 95% sure based on my data that increased armor and fap decay does not increase overall TT return and makes me believe defense decay is all lost to the system.

For instance When I cycle 50K using my Genesis Firefly on mobs like Itumatrox, Allos, fefoids, or fresco, Fresco will have the worst TT return (even after adjusting for taxes) Itumatrox next worse, Fefoids better and allos the best. And then taking those numbers I can compare to defense costs and see The greater TT losses are closely related to the Defense costs.

Others have also mentioned armor/fap changes showing no difference in overall loot. (maybe I'll find the links in my notes later.)

However, on the other side of the argument:

In my earlier days I got the 8k+ drone, after spending a lot more then that in tt healing ppl during my days as a fapper without doing any ingame professions. When I started hunting drones I had UR125 almost maxed. I do believe that armor/fap decay are returned in loot because I felt a better tt return after each fapping session lately.

There is also my hunting experiment on rippersnappers
Long story short:
Total Spent = 1,399.69
Total Loot = 1,308.02
93.45% return on total spent (counting armor/fap)
weapon only cost = 1,299.18
100.68% return vs weapon only

So there's some evidence both ways.

Like I said, I'm not 100% sure either way. However, in my example, even if they do get 93% of their defense back, it's only 2.17 extra loot, but he still loses 2.62 TT/mob vs. Big's 1.93 (yes, I'm counting the fapper's decay as the hunter. Technically wrong, but you get the idea.)

As for heal chips & ammo, I'm very sure decay+ammo is counted as total TT spend, otherwise, either laser or blp would show massive difference in looting, and they don't. (not on total spend vs return, anyway)

Also most important question is: how this works on teams?
12 person team loots an item (lets say it was 120ped global) and the item is (L). Loot is stack share (so in theory most fair one) but only one person gets the item.
Should he keep it for himself because this just "substracted" 120peds from his personal loot pool. Or mayby it substracted proportionally to dmg dealt from each member and the item should be split.

When in doubt, try to imagine the makers of this game trying to design things. What's the fairest? How to keep from someone milking MA for millions? Etc. Also remember they built this long before (L) items, high regen and other additions were even thought of.

For team hunts, they obviously decided it was problematic for a team to get multiples of an item. I.E. instead of 1 shadow glove @ 12 ped TT, 12 gloves @ 1 ped TT each, or some TT combo based on dmg. det. rules. This would obviously cause a mass item & hunting style imbalance quite quickly. So only one item is looted. The TT is commensurate w/ however MA sets their team loot algorithm. But, I'm fairly sure the full TT isn't "subtracted" from just the looting player. It's quite obvious that would also be unfair.

My guess is the TT of items in team loot is "pooled" from the participants in manner MA decided was fair. Whether it's equal TT from each, or higher damager contributed more, I'm not 100% sure. But very certain all team players are "debited" across the board.

And yes, I'm quite aware that the most common team settign is "damage determines", which seems to hint that total damage done is used to figure loot, not TT spend. And yes it creates a case where the guy spending more TT, but less dmg/sec, gets the short end of the stick. But I can't really see them making a team setting called "decay determines".

Yeah I know that. Just wanted to know if there are any hint because this theory seems just made up out of the blue.

Oh not out of the blue at all. This comes from years of tests, seeing my own loot, reading others' results elsewhere. Interviewing players, including ATH receivers. Etc.

The "TT loot based on TT spend" theory is the one that, to me, best covers most situations I'm aware of. Yes, I could be completely wrong. And when a better fitting theory is shown to me, I'll freely admit it. This is not the 1st loot theory I've had, (read my old thread about comparing EU to Vegas) but as those concepts have shown problems, I've dropped them.

Ok now I want to know who tested this and where I can find these test. I've seen your 1 Run overamped and I think I've also seen your 5 (?) runs using different weapons. However if you don't want to become EF's Next Legion you should gather some real data/provide some other tests or just let this die.

Sure, here are some examples on EF:
05-10-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/mining/170763-vigi-mining-log-9.html#post2423882

So 400 runs behind me - time for some numbers again
60000ped - bombs
2658ped - amps
62658ped - cost
tt return - 56 536,51 ped - 90,23% vs cost

07-27-2009 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/hunting/157736-you-made-me-camp-ripper-snappers.html (One of my personal tests)

Overall Results:
Total Spent = 1399.69
Total Loot = 1308.02

As I mentioned above,
93.45% return on total spent (counting armor/fap)
100.68% return vs weapon only
Might argue towards defense cost being repaid. Not sure.

04-18-2008 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ippies-how-2-profit-thread-3.html#post1302370

NOTE: Total after 7k PED of Ammo: -412.48
% of return @ 7k PED of Ammo: 94.45%

And this was a mod merc test.

Comments can be found such as this one:
07-26-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ved-loot-imbalance-explained.html#post2509899

i've cycled 898992.94tt and my tt return is 856250.33tt in the past 12 months and that's counting the ath...i dont think star has cycled more then that in one eomon session. but hey i could be wrong.

Showing a 95.25% return, counting an ATH. Meaning he either spent that money and then got compensated, or his loot afterward sucked real bad. I'll let you guess which it was.

Which leads me to a recent one
07-31-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/mining/188379-project-tt-returns-90-a.html

Running Total

Total TT Spent: 83851
Total TT Returns: 72204
Total TT % return: 86.11%

Yes, only 86% return. But to bump over 93%, he only needs a 5,800 tower. Not an unusual thing.

01-07-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...t-weapons-against-argos-test.html#post2250957

Multiple gun tests, but I did the math for all of them combined:
gun+amp+ammo = 10,202.85
armor = 267.09
total = 10,469.94
Loot = 9,249.89
88.35% return
90.66% return just gun

7-27-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/hunting/168760-noiseless-hunting-log-5.html#post2510665

Total cost: 25 457 PED
tt loot: 23 460 PED (92.16%)

06-29-2010 - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/hunting/191927-low-level-eco-hunting-log.html#post2483386

Total Hunts: 105
Total TT spent: 4,768.08 ped
Total TT return: 4,607.82 ped

Sabakuma hunts opalo+A101 w/o armor/fap
96.64% TT return

I have more examples in my research, but I hope you get the idea.

It falls in the 85% - 95% range which is pretty wide. Now we need to find out is it damage done ore TT spent.

There is another possibility: We are seeing small snippets of decay/return over a long avatar life cycle.

For example, one of these logs was started right after a 12k uber. Had the log started 2 hunts before it, the Tt returns would seem drastically different. Or what if Makitoki only counted his spend/return before the ATH? Would show much worse.


Visual example:

Ava start _-_-_-^-_---__-___-----__^^---___-_-_-_----______^_ Ava end

Log only shows.............| this above section |

Well, see - this is not the theory or the theory thread, this is an explanation as to why and how skills still matter in a hypothetical variant of Entropia Universe where you do loot gun+amp decay plus ammo back. I think the theory discussion should happen in the different thread, leaving this one just for the "importance of skills in that variant of EU" discussion.

You are right, remontoire, the full loot theory discussion could be a whole other thread, however, I admit it's hard to discuss the theoretical #s here without discussing the idea it comes from.

even i didn't remeber there were any definitive proove that %returns is fixed with TT spent, still what JC performed is strange. What is the pupose to noob and uber use same weapon. There are beter L solutions for noob and unL for uber as in armours and weapons. If they optimalize they gear to their skil will loot be evening for both of them ?

Sorry if you missed the idea. The concept was simple: If TT loot is based on TT spend, then does skills really matter between a noob and an uber? In that question, we need them both to use the exact same gear on the same mob. Showing them both hunting snables w/ opalos doesn't give enough variance.

I agree partially with what JC is writing lately with his theories, but i still believe that unmaxed weapons will be less economical than the same weapon maxed. I`m quite positive that the noob with 0/10 will get a lot less than those 93% tt return (loot vs ammo/amp/gun).

Here's a little secret: My wife has been using an Ep-40 for months now. Stared @ lvl 8 laser pistol. She's now lvl 23.

Her returns? About 93%ish

However, as I showed above, 93% for two different people doesn't actually mean they made the same profit/loss.

Az, there is a big difference between someone who claims he figured "it" out without the slightest evidence and someone who just brings something up for discussion and supports it with some maths and small samples.

I can't see John claiming anything here beside the obvious maths.

Well his maths are based on a theory based on exactly one run.

As I showed, Az, my ideas are based on lots of long-term research. Mine plus others.

And by the way. I'm not the only one who believes this kind of theory. Let's hear from someone who's been hunting for a LONG time.

Fact:
-u get always back what u wasted
-regeneration of Mob's doesnt matter ,u get pay'd for
-the Loot is in relationship of your ammo/amp decay u used to kill
-Armor decay doesnt matter to get better loot's
-u have same chances to profit as someone with a fast weapon,it just takes Age's

However, Leona is right. I'm not saying I've figured "it" out. I'm saying so far, this theory fits better than any I've seen or considered in the past.

We still have lots of work to do before we fully understand the loot system.

 

[JohnCapital]

Well, see - this is not the theory or the theory thread, this is an explanation as to why and how skills still matter in a hypothetical variant of Entropia Universe where you do loot gun+amp decay plus ammo back. I think the theory discussion should happen in the different thread, leaving this one just for the "importance of skills in that variant of EU" discussion.

I did agree w/ you above, and yes, this is about the effect of skills, but the truth is this is not about skill gains per 1,000 ped decay, or which fap skills better, or anything like that.

At its heart, this thread is based on a loot theory, so I've moved it from the skills section to the loot theory section.

Double post ftw

 

[remontoire]

I have reconsidered it more and I think you are partially right. However, consider this scenario:

Noob: Maddox IV + Beast = 38.0 dps
Lvl 25: Isis HL6 + A104 = 36.5 dps

The noob's total markup is about 800 peds. The A104 is about TT+120, while a full TT HL6 is about TT+60, and that 60 is gone forever unlike the noob's gear which he can sell for the same markup as he paid for it.

This is where you go wrong. You cannot look at limited items from a +X PED perspective that way, it ends up being all wrong. Leaving amp aside:

Maddox IV - avg(dmg)*10.500 pec = 2.343 hp/pec
Isis HL6(L) - avg(dmg)*(10+1.932*markup) pec = 2.851hp / pec (120% MU)

It does not matter how many HL6(L)-s you use up. As log as the markup is constant and you sell the maddox for the same markup aas you bought it, for any equal level of damage dealt, all that matters is eco. "You can't use the last 3%" and "you pay markup" is already included.

If you deal 10^6 hp of damage, you will have used up 3507 PED buying and shooting HL6-s and you will have used up 4268 PED shooting and repairing Maddox IV. In both cases you will have paid in extra for UL amp markup and can get it back too (and maddox markup ... but as in == out, we can omit it).

Or ... BL1000(L) + Beast vs Maddox IV + Beast at level 25. BL1000(L) at 120% will set you off by 307.2 PED, and using it the full 7922 times equipped with Beast will cost additional 7922*(10+4.366)/100=1138 ped for a total of 1445 PED. You can expect to do 50.37*7922=399013 hp of damage. This damage with Maddox iv + beast will cost you (399013/34.32)*(14.87/100) = 1728 PED. The difference is more than a full BL1000(L) saved.

 

[Az Bloodz]

Well your test suggest an average return rate however it does not distinguish damage dealt from TT spent as far as I know and that is the only point important here.
Of course for mining it is different since the AMPs are doing just this but who said every prof works the same?

 

[PrinceYumil]

Aren't we assuming that loot is dependent on TT spent, for this comparison? If so then it doesn't matter how much it costs you to do damage because you'll get it back in the loot. You will have to hunt somewhat fewer mobs to spend the same amount of money because each mob costs more, but the % return is still the same. That's why I was comparing comparable dps setups.

If as I currently believe, loot is dependent on damage done, then of course the (L) weapons will always be better.

 

[Witte]

I am still waiting for someone to put his money where his mouth is and take a Swine Deluxe and does some hardcore hunting.