Yog Pet Buff Issue

aVaLON_52

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I noticed the discussion about:
1. Pet buff was enabled
2. Enabled during event
3. Use in good faith vs. bad faith
4. How do you prove bad faith usage

My opinion. Rather than saying something along the lines of "oh it can't be proven. So no repricussion.." (not saying that's the case, just impression I get because repricussions are either pending etc..)

If said players received unintended benefit at some point.. (during events etc).. what did the player gain from this unintended benefit?

With our without knowledge of the unintended benefit that was put in the game (increased reload).. that should be undone.

Sure it's 1000x easier said than done.

Worst case those players that even unintentionally exploited lose X skills and or Y loot. Adjustments are made actions retraced.
(Actions for example being running pet buff during entire duration of event etc)

Regardless of intent, faith, etc. It wasn't meant to be implemented in this way and it was clearly abused.
 

San

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I am reminded of a meeting a long time ago which dragged out endlessly, until someone remarked: Everything has been said, just not yet by everybody.

There is a very simple resolution. Those who are not happy with the official response abstain from further participation in competitive events until their faith gets restored. The next Mayhem scoreboard and its diff to the previous one will expose whose missing contribution is hurting the balance sheet and who was just in it for the noise.
 

treeloggerbigbi

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For the last time read Mindarks statement

MindArk has decided it would be unfair and impractical to punish participants who directly or indirectly benefited from the unintended buff, for example stripping prizes awarded in previous Mayhem events.

There will NOT be any punishment at all (READ THE OPENING POST BY MINDARK!!!)


All awaiting on only to see if any get extra prizes (as i said before it will probably be a double or triple skill week as compensation)
 

Raffaele Meiers

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So the people who used the pet buff and didn't share the pet would get off because they may have just had it out for skill gains, while the ones who shared/borrowed get banned. Seem fair?
I did not write that, I wrote that this and other things would certainly be a proof that they knew about the bug and shared the bugged pet so that they all get the andvantage. To then say all others did not knew it because they did not share it is not a conclusion of they statement. I could be but most probably isnt as they would have certainly used a pet from which they gain something inside the instance and not use a pet that does, when it would not be bugged, give only a mining extraction speed buff. Possible other factors telling they new about the bug could be F.X. when did they activate the buff, only inside instance and with shared mobs or did they talk to others about the bug, are they also mining or are they only hunter, did they use the Pet and buff while mining or only when hunting etc. etc.
 

Raffaele Meiers

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Mayhem, just like the rest of the virtual universe is a game. Have fun. Some win. Some lose. Yes, it sucks that people cheat, but this ain't the first time, and sure won't be the last time. It's human nature to get the most out of your money and get away with what the system allows. Since the system allows it, it's really Mindark's fault, not the players fault... as it always has been and always will be. They never really test stuff out enough to stop this crap from happening as a real game dev company should... maybe the future will fix that, but so far, meh... just same ol same ol.

...

First it is not a game it is a service that MA provides. Second in the ToU it is not allowed to explot bugs, third MA can ban anyone if they want to. Yes it was a Bug MA itroduced as they did not check that the speed buff not only was enabled on excavators but MA did not abuse the bug at was the users of their service that did it and should be punished for that and not keep their illegaly gained loot. In fact they robbed all other users of this service by doing that. The only ones gaining from this behavoir where the abusers and MA, Abusers got tokens etc. and MA got more decay in the same time from the faster reloading weapons.

And to cure this they take some Money of the lootpool from users of their service an give it for free to some others who los because of the bug users.
 

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As mentioned earlier, there will be no punishment, so better look forward and plan for future events,
and thouroghly think both two and three times if it is worth the risk of participating if something else
will happen.
One thing to think about: same people that code ingame features (e.g taming and events) are also the
same that code and create a lot of tools they use, e.g monitoring what happens ingame, so if pets and events
aren't properly done, then the risk is that some of those tools aren't either.
Hopefully a lot of issues will be gone in the future, since dev team is larger now, and a bit more time can be
put on each task.
 

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I did not write that, I wrote that this and other things would certainly be a proof that they knew about the bug and shared the bugged pet so that they all get the andvantage. To then say all others did not knew it because they did not share it is not a conclusion of they statement. I could be but most probably isnt as they would have certainly used a pet from which they gain something inside the instance and not use a pet that does, when it would not be bugged, give only a mining extraction speed buff. Possible other factors telling they new about the bug could be F.X. when did they activate the buff, only inside instance and with shared mobs or did they talk to others about the bug, are they also mining or are they only hunter, did they use the Pet and buff while mining or only when hunting etc. etc.
Did you not propose checking records to see who traded pets to identify those who obviously used the pets for the reload buf? This would result in what I described.
 

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Did you not propose checking records to see who traded pets to identify those who obviously used the pets for the reload buf? This would result in what I described.

And just like outside of the game...Not everyone who does something wrong gets caught. However, we should try to do our best to catch as many "bad" guys as we can. I agree that looking for pets that were passed around during mayhem could be a really good way of figuring out some people who exploited.

Will we catch them all? No... Will we catch some, Yes... and it will be a step in the right direction and hopefully make those who "got off the hook easy" think twice about exploiting the game in the future.
 

aVaLON_52

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I am reminded of a meeting a long time ago which dragged out endlessly, until someone remarked: Everything has been said, just not yet by everybody.

There is a very simple resolution. Those who are not happy with the official response abstain from further participation in competitive events until their faith gets restored. The next Mayhem scoreboard and its diff to the previous one will expose whose missing contribution is hurting the balance sheet and who was just in it for the noise.
Yeah the quote is fine, mind you there are also multiple threads on this topic. So room for every opinion, reiteration, bumps, etc all welcome if people feel strongly enough about.

I don't think there is a simple resolution. People can and will potentially will complain until they are blue in the face, or just complain because they can or until they get a satisfactory resolution. Perhaps the idea is that we will all forget and this thing will blow over as if nothing happened in the next several years. However for most of us it will leave a lasting impression of the game, a scar in the view of exploits and how it was handled.
 

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Yeah the quote is fine, mind you there are also multiple threads on this topic. So room for every opinion, reiteration, bumps, etc all welcome if people feel strongly enough about.

I don't think there is a simple resolution. People can and will potentially will complain until they are blue in the face, or just complain because they can or until they get a satisfactory resolution. Perhaps the idea is that we will all forget and this thing will blow over as if nothing happened in the next several years. However for most of us it will leave a lasting impression of the game, a scar in the view of exploits and how it was handled.
What I meant is that all of it is inconsequential if the same names who beat the loudest drums keep showing up on the event scoreboards, or if they don't, their absence turns out not enough of a loss for the company to trigger the changes they were hoping for.
 

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Too many discussions . Just need MAs statement and if they punish i really would like to know why they punished and how they determine intentional or unintentional abuse of the bug :D
Hmm Yog level 3 - already may give buff on that level?? I think - No
 

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I had the time to withdraw 2 times already since it happened and nothing changed.
I still got a huge ammount of skills to sell. If they sell out before a fair solution is given to this incident this will be one less depositor for them. One they had since 2004...mind you.
 

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Any update or ETA?
 

Raffaele Meiers

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Did you not propose checking records to see who traded pets to identify those who obviously used the pets for the reload buf? This would result in what I described.
Yes I did propose that as one of the possibilities to find abusers but there are many more ways to find this people like f.x..

  • There is for example the outspoken ones who mention it in Soc channel or in privat communications.
  • There are the Eco ones who used max reload buffs from pills or rings and then suddenly, even though they have the pills and rings to max reload, only use pills/rings to get to 5 or 15% reload buff and abused Yog Pet's reload buff to get to max relaod.
  • There are the ones who went istead of 30% reload buff to 25% reload buff with rings etc. and used the pet to go beyond max reload buff.
  • Then there are the ones who never mine and use a mining buff pet with active buff in the instance even though they never mine.
  • There are the miners who use the Yog in hunting instances but never use it while mining or deactivate the buff while mining.
I bet there are many more possibilities to discover these bug abusers if MA starts to use their brain to find them.
 

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Yes I did propose that as one of the possibilities to find abusers but there are many more ways to find this people like f.x..

  • There is for example the outspoken ones who mention it in Soc channel or in privat communications.
  • There are the Eco ones who used max reload buffs from pills or rings and then suddenly, even though they have the pills and rings to max reload, only use pills/rings to get to 5 or 15% reload buff and abused Yog Pet's reload buff to get to max relaod.
  • There are the ones who went istead of 30% reload buff to 25% reload buff with rings etc. and used the pet to go beyond max reload buff.
  • Then there are the ones who never mine and use a mining buff pet with active buff in the instance even though they never mine.
  • There are the miners who use the Yog in hunting instances but never use it while mining or deactivate the buff while mining.
I bet there are many more possibilities to discover these bug abusers if MA starts to use their brain to find them.
These and probably more things could prove that players knew exactly what they did, but the thing is, do MA really have
tools to find this out?
If code for event wasn't properly created, the pet wasn't properly done, why should those tools they use be perfect?
It is afterall same people that code both ingame features and pipeline tools. ;)
 

Raffaele Meiers

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These and probably more things could prove that players knew exactly what they did, but the thing is, do MA really have
tools to find this out?
If code for event wasn't properly created, the pet wasn't properly done, why should those tools they use be perfect?
It is afterall same people that code both ingame features and pipeline tools. ;)
Everything they gain money from it they surely have to record, for tax purpose etc., and a pet consuming food is Income to MA.
If something MA allways are best at coding and fastest at fixing is when it concerns their income streams.
 

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Everything they gain money from it they surely have to record, for tax purpose etc., and a pet consuming food is Income to MA.
If something MA allways are best at coding and fastest at fixing is when it concerns their income streams.
Their income is from deposits, not what happens ingame. Its the value of deposits that are reported to Skattemyndigheten
(tax authority). This is done by their bank.

Tools I'm talking about are the ones used internaly at MA to improve pipeline, but also to keep track of what happens ingame.
This can be for balancing, auto create stuff for graphics (like icons and so on), improve workflow when creating new items,
landareas, missions and so on. I have no idea how many tools MA have for this, but there seem to be some that don't work
properly (look at info for some items, XYZ is way off on some. Reason for this can be many though).

If the tools to monitoring activity doesn't work properly the risk is that they can't be 100% sure of what happen.
 

Raffaele Meiers

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Their income is from deposits, not what happens ingame. Its the value of deposits that are reported to Skattemyndigheten
(tax authority). This is done by their bank.
...
LOL - If someone deposits 1000 Euro and 10 days later withdraws 1000 Euro MA has a Income of +1000 and then -1000 and they do this all the time? You really think that this is the income from MA? Isnt it not more likely that the decay of weapons etc. that is removed from this Service is the values MA takes as their income as they are gone from the Universe. Money deposited is like you deposit money in a bank it is your money not the money of the bank.

PS: If you do not trust me, look up that on PCF Forum you will find it certainly in a old discussion about MA's income streams....
 

Joat

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LOL - If someone deposits 1000 Euro and 10 days later withdraws 1000 Euro MA has a Income of +1000 and then -1000 and they do this all the time? You really think that this is the income from MA? Isnt it not more likely that the decay of weapons etc. that is removed from this Service is the values MA takes as their income as they are gone from the Universe. Money deposited is like you deposit money in a bank it is your money not the money of the bank.

PS: If you do not trust me, look up that on PCF Forum you will find it certainly in a old discussion about MA's income streams....
Whats so odd with depo vs withdraw? One is income the other is expense. My guess that scenario is a pro mille of all
depos that are done, most likely are vast majorities of depos "oneway tickets". :p

Decay, fees and so on are "tools" they use to balance a steady decrease of ingame values, so they get a steady flow of
depos = income, so yes that increase their income.
No need to call it a service anylonger btw, laws have changed so they can now call it a game (as they do when you
e.g apply for a position at their dev team).
 

raulpon

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May we ask why you still wait to sort this out?
May we ask why you waited 2 years to fix this?
Yes, you can!
Yes, you can!

Will we respond? No ;)
 
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Raffaele Meiers

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Whats so odd with depo vs withdraw? One is income the other is expense. My guess that scenario is a pro mille of all
depos that are done, most likely are vast majorities of depos "oneway tickets". :p

Decay, fees and so on are "tools" they use to balance a steady decrease of ingame values, so they get a steady flow of
depos = income, so yes that increase their income.
No need to call it a service anylonger btw, laws have changed so they can now call it a game (as they do when you
e.g apply for a position at their dev team).
Where do they say this is a game? I searched all of ToU and there is exactly Zero times the word Game in it but many many times they mentioned that this is a service they provide.....

Thanks for clarification and for the link to the allegation you made.

Up to now, if not changed, we still have this information from the then Managing Director who said that " MA makes money on decay on item usage. "

Post from Marco Behrmann who was back then Managing Director


Or could you please guid me to the new income schem, as you mentioned here, of MA and where they stated that it is like you said.

PS: So you say when you depo some money at a bank this deposited money is the income of the bank and when I withdraw some money I deposited this is expenses for the bank?? :rolleyes:
 

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Where do they say this is a game? I searched all of ToU and there is exactly Zero times the word Game in it but many many times they mentioned that this is a service they provide.....

Thanks for clarification and for the link to the allegation you made.

Up to now, if not changed, we still have this information from the then Managing Director who said that " MA makes money on decay on item usage. "

Post from Marco Behrmann who was back then Managing Director


Or could you please guid me to the new income schem, as you mentioned here, of MA and where they stated that it is like you said.

PS: So you say when you depo some money at a bank this deposited money is the income of the bank and when I withdraw some money I deposited this is expenses for the bank?? :rolleyes:
In what way don't they make money from what I wrote? RL value in depos are used to run the company, to get a
steady flow of depos they need tools ingame to reduce ingame values so more depos are done.
This is done by e.g decay, fees and similar.
Have a look at Annual Report, have a look at total ingame value vs RL values and you'll see they aren't even close to each other.
If they had RL value stacked at a bank account and only reduce it equal with amount of decay, fees and so on, these two had been
way closer to each other.
They now see our ingame values as a debt towards us players. Guess why? ;)
Btw, I do know who MArco is, what he has said, even what he used to do when not working with PE.


This is from when you apply for the support position at MindArk:
"What you will be doing

  • Be an active part in helping our teams maintain the high quality of our game, collaborating daily with all parts of the organization. We work together!
  • Be Mindark’s face towards our players
  • Help out players in need, and know the ins and outs of the player experience in Entropia Universe
  • Work to improve how we work with support
  • Help out with testing the game
  • .....

You will find the entire info here:


If you want to see the original scheme, head over to Espacenet and have a look.



I don't base my posts just on what I believe, I base it from info from a lot of places, like Skatteverket (tax authority)
Spelinspektionen (Swedish Gambling Authority), and so on.
I do know a lot more about this and other things related to MA and features ingame, but I have zero interest to spread that since
there seem to be a bit too many from cat1 in DKe around here.... :p
 

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Money deposited is like you deposit money in a bank it is your money not the money of the bank.
money you deposit turns into IOU, which is a bit different than money, not to talk about cash. but in banks we trust, i hear ya! :laugh:
 

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Also in that Zero times mentioned the word game but many times a reverence to a service they offer...
That one is from 2001, it was supposed to show you the basic fundamentals in game when it comes
to RL value-> Ingame value -> RL value. All you have to do is to figure out what each letter stand for
and then figure out correlation between them with help of the description.
You can keep calling it a service, nothing wrong with that. Just that they don't have to call it that anymore
due to some changes in laws. In 2001 the laws were outdated, and some companies had to be careful
with what they classified their products or services as so they didn't got classified as gambling.
A game that involves RL values (money) looked way worse than a service with RL values (money). ;)

Enough of that now, and back to topic and my point that if features and items aren't properly done
risk is that their internal tools aren't either. It could be due to someone isn't so good at this, but
my guess is that the reason is more due to stress from having too much to do and not enough
of time to reach a decent level of development on those.
 

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How would this NOT have been intended by players. I doubt they "accidentally" summoned the yog pet in session.
 

Raffaele Meiers

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That one is from 2001, it was supposed to show you the basic fundamentals in game when it comes
to RL value-> Ingame value -> RL value. All you have to do is to figure out what each letter stand for
and then figure out correlation between them with help of the description.
You can keep calling it a service, nothing wrong with that. Just that they don't have to call it that anymore
due to some changes in laws. In 2001 the laws were outdated, and some companies had to be careful
with what they classified their products or services as so they didn't got classified as gambling.
A game that involves RL values (money) looked way worse than a service with RL values (money). ;)

Enough of that now, and back to topic and my point that if features and items aren't properly done
risk is that their internal tools aren't either. It could be due to someone isn't so good at this, but
my guess is that the reason is more due to stress from having too much to do and not enough
of time to reach a decent level of development on those.
Get your facts straight and I may continue with answering to your distraction in this thread. But please start to get your facts straight. You write: "That one is from 2001" No it is not, the date on that Patent Aplication is from June 19, 2003.

Why do you not comment on the later Information from the Post from Marco Behrmann who was back then Managing Director? It is from 2006 so it is newer than your 2001 which is 2003 reverence. He states what I also wrote and you allways say is not true. So either you are wrong and the back then managing director was right or you are a know it all who owns Mindark and changed everyrthing without changing ToU, replacing service with game, changed how MA makes money etc.

It seams like Quanon, you insist on some made up things and reiterate it again and again and then you say it is fact when all the real facts say something different.

Like your reasoning that this is now called a Game because in a Job description the word game developer is mentioned. So a Job Description superseeds the ToU and changes the Companys description? Really, as mentioned get your facts straight and come back until then I will ignore you as a troll who wants to get this thread locked so the Yog abusers are out of visibility.

If you are working for MA you may have the knowledge but as you are not it is speculation from your side. And as decay gives MA their revenue stream, like its managing director mentioned, it is a thing they have certainly programmed better than other things.

All things that decay and so generate income for MA will have to be logged by the System so they can show it to tax authorities if they have a audit or a user of their service goes to court and they have to prove to the juge how it is.
 

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Get your facts straight and I may continue with answering to your distraction in this thread. But please start to get your facts straight. You write: "That one is from 2001" No it is not, the date on that Patent Aplication is from June 19, 2003.

Why do you not comment on the later Information from the Post from Marco Behrmann who was back then Managing Director? It is from 2006 so it is newer than your 2001 which is 2003 reverence. He states what I also wrote and you allways say is not true. So either you are wrong and the back then managing director was right or you are a know it all who owns Mindark and changed everyrthing without changing ToU, replacing service with game, changed how MA makes money etc.

It seams like Quanon, you insist on some made up things and reiterate it again and again and then you say it is fact when all the real facts say something different.

Like your reasoning that this is now called a Game because in a Job description the word game developer is mentioned. So a Job Description superseeds the ToU and changes the Companys description? Really, as mentioned get your facts straight and come back until then I will ignore you as a troll who wants to get this thread locked so the Yog abusers are out of visibility.

If you are working for MA you may have the knowledge but as you are not it is speculation from your side. And as decay gives MA their revenue stream, like its managing director mentioned, it is a thing they have certainly programmed better than other things.

All things that decay and so generate income for MA will have to be logged by the System so they can show it to tax authorities if they have a audit or a user of their service goes to court and they have to prove to the juge how it is.
Get my facts straight... ok, the patent is from July 16 2001 in Europe, the link you got is from US 2003. In that document is a point within
brackets with number 22, with date 16th of july 2001. You failed to see that obviously.

I've seen a shitload of posts from MArco, and his hyping of things, and "not so real " text. No I didn't took his posts and believed in every word
since we had to "read between the lines" occasionly. The scheme in the patent is about how system works up until today. MArco was right in that
decay and fees created their income, but not from decay it self, since that value is monopoly value. RL income comes from depos.
Revenue stream in decay here doesn't mean RL value, it means a core feature to create the need of depos.
If we had RL values ingame we had been forced to declare that to tax authority, which we don't.

Ok I try again, since you didn't get it: a lot of my info isn't from me, its collected from tax authority, gambling authority, MindArk, swedish
companies registration office and so on, collected a lot of info through the years, and not always specificaly about MindArk but gaming
companies in general. Several times it have been about other games, both excisting and projects that could be cloned from excisting
games and become something like a RCE, but it still fits EU.
You could find some info online, and info that you can't find, call all authoritys and ask around. At some authorities you have to have an
account, and some info has a fee. Non of the info I've got from where I had to create an account and/or pay a fee will be shared, since
it is against agreements with respective authority.

It isn't due to a job description, its due to changes in laws, up until last change in 2019, where we suddenly got info about loot system
just before that new law came, but that is another topic though. If service is still there in ToU/EULA there is probably a good reason why,
either they haven't bothered to change it since it doesn't matter anymore in sweden, or it could be due some countries still need to see
EU as a service since their laws are similar to how ours were. Ofc, there could be a lot of more reasons for it to be there.

Some core features are probably really well written, they are very old afterall. :D But tools I mention isn't about creating core features,
its about a higher level. This is done in every VFX and game company, to increase efficieny in pipline.

Looking at your posts, both here and others, you aren't a HSP are you?
 
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