Documented agreements to avoid scamming

GeorgeSkywalker

Mutated
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
11,572
Location
England
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.
 
bad idea. If Mindark put a 'renting' scheme in game where it works with in game controls and authority, it'd be great, but the don't want to do that (and honestly I'm not sure if they are competent enough to pull something like that off anyways - look how long it takes them to resolve support tickets and bugs, etc. Remember those estated that were non functional for over a year after vu 10? Imagine a rented item being taken out of game for over a year just because Mindark can't figure out which side 'wins').

Problem is and always was that there's no way to control another avatars actions, no matter how much you want to, and as it is now 'all trades are final.' I guess you can look in to buying a bank? Isn't exactly what you want, but it could help get you closer to something like what you are wanting I suspect.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ing-operations&p=839343&viewfull=1#post839343
Since we released news about the virtual banking licenses, several questions regarding loan services and banking affairs within Entropia Universe have been raised. The main concern has been the lending of items for interest. We feel that we need to clarify our policy about this.
Recently MindArk PE AB issued official virtual banking licenses. These licenses comprise a secured bank system for processing loans and securities in the form of items. All transactions made via this official bank system, such as loans, defaults, securities, interest etc., are safe and as such guaranteed by MindArk.
By contrast, loan services offered outside this official bank system cannot be guaranteed by MindArk. If an item is exchanged between avatars, this transaction will be logged as a regular TRADE. And as all trades are final, MindArk will not investigate claims if a loan giving avatar refuses to return items or money.Many people do not fully understand the true value of their virtual items until they are lost. They will then contact MindArk PE AB for assistance and will realize that we cannot help them; this can cause a lot of unnecessary grief and frustration.
We do not wish to discourage entrepreneurship within Entropia Universe, but based on experiences from community feedback and support case history, unfortunately not all entrepreneurs offering loaning services are trustworthy members of the Entropia Universe and therefore we need to be strict in our policies in order to protect the community from scams and cheating.
Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.
 
Last edited:
Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.

Bad idea, since if item renting / borrowing would come more easier it will crash their markets also. I bet people wouldnt buy that much anymore if they can just rent or borrow :)
 
Adverse effects on the UL market aside, MA would never condone this.

If MA integrated the upcoming Neverdie API/SDK and bound peds and items to tokens on a blockchain, we would have the infrastructure to build bindable, transparent contracts and agreements between players that do not rely on trust or one's forum reputation to uphold.
This would allow us to create all sorts of contracts with custom terms including item rental and who knows what else.. A contract to split team loot in a customised way for example - I'd make use of that immediately.

But then again MA are autocrats so may as well just kill the idea here :p
 
If they are going to scam you, they are going to scam you. Having an agreement on a website won't stop them anymore than having an agreement in chat logs. MA isn't going to help you get your stuff back either way and most law enforcement isn't going to do much about it.

Best advice is not to lend your stuff out at all.
 
Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.

please, let MA focus on the game instead of playing referee to monitor trades. :wise:

They're already understaffed and unable to address all the open topics, and now you want them to cater trades as well?

bad idea.

Just ask for collateral if you want to lend. And if they dont want to pay collateral, that person is untrustworthy to begin with.
 
Adverse effects on the UL market aside, MA would never condone this.

If MA integrated the upcoming Neverdie API/SDK and bound peds and items to tokens on a blockchain, we would have the infrastructure to build bindable, transparent contracts and agreements between players that do not rely on trust or one's forum reputation to uphold.
This would allow us to create all sorts of contracts with custom terms including item rental and who knows what else.. A contract to split team loot in a customised way for example - I'd make use of that immediately.

But then again MA are autocrats so may as well just kill the idea here :p

Interesting ideas there about the blockchain. I'm not sure MA would discard the idea so quickly, remember in early Project Entropia days MA had plans to have some kind of contracts in game. However, the idea was never implemented. Now if they originally had ideas to have contracts in game then shows they may be open to finally bringing those ideas to fruition provided environmental conditions are right and it fits in with their other plans.

You say MA would never condone this but didn't mention why you think they won't condone it. I'm interested in knowing your opinion on that
 
I actually meant that MA wouldn't be likely to police item renting/forum contracts - as evidenced by mastermesh's EULA quote...

As a rule, it's pretty safe to say MA aren't going to waste resources supporting a potentially damaging activity that doesn't make them immediate profit.
It's much easier for them to just ban that particular activity outright.

Since we're on the subject, I think the only way I see MA releasing blockchain smart contracts is if they aren't editable by the user (that way they can be suitably controlled and taxed.)
By having user-created contracts you open up a huge can of worms like people setting up private auction houses and god knows what else.
 
mindark could implement this and make fast peds with it if they take a cut of the collateral.

i dont think it would matter regarding "players who generate peds by an almost unemployed income" as the cld system works almost the same. hold an item and generate peds without further employment.

open trade documentation could be interesting if the item tiers are documented to track back a stolen item back inside black market. though an item trade without collateral can still easily end with a sale of the item in black market as the seller will probably get 1/2 to 2/3 of the mu if the buyer wont give anything to a witchhunt by community. if at least action shall be taken to reverse the trades mindark would need to take the case of an official responsibility for a failed pvp trade. depends on if they want to edit the eula. probably they wont as everyone who decides himself different after a sale has been done will claim to be scamed or so.

maybe like "mindark will interfere on pvp trades if the trade is officially documented as a rent of item and in all other pvp trade cases not"

why not, transparency is always good leads to more security, trust and more willingness to invest.

i think it would be good.
 
It sounds to me like the basic description of a community enforced rep system.

These work great, until they don't. You;; find plenty of people willing to gain rep in a load of small deals and then blow it all on one 'big' $xxxx.xx scam.
 
MA could've have made a "lending/renting" system. Maybe a separate NPC that would open an interface to show categories and items for rent (similar to auction) and you could view item, tier rates and rental cost (day/week/month). MA would then have a fee for the contract and the item when rented would show in your inventory but would not be tradeable/tt-able. If avatar didn't log in the item would automatically be returned to the owners account which he/she would use or put back in NPC for "lending/renting".

I would use a system like this to try out different weapons/armors w/o having to deposit a lot of PED. That is why MA won't put it in too! :laugh:
 
MA could've have made a "lending/renting" system. Maybe a separate NPC that would open an interface to show categories and items for rent (similar to auction) and you could view item, tier rates and rental cost (day/week/month). MA would then have a fee for the contract and the item when rented would show in your inventory but would not be tradeable/tt-able. If avatar didn't log in the item would automatically be returned to the owners account which he/she would use or put back in NPC for "lending/renting".

I would use a system like this to try out different weapons/armors w/o having to deposit a lot of PED. That is why MA won't put it in too! :laugh:

Well thats a well thought out trade system you explained there, however I would be very afraid about the devaluation of expensive items. People simply won;t buy expensive stuff anymore if they can rent it for cheap (yes I say cheap since most people keep undercutting each other)
 
Why is it when anyone has an idea having to do with money, increasing skills or attributes some idiot yells NO that will run the market. I am about sick of hearing that and it is usually someone who has been playing 2 or 3 years and hasn't got a clue about markets or anything else about the game for that matter. MA introduced the new FAPs and talk about a screwing to those with the old FAPs that were very expensive lost there a$$ and I never saw a word about that. Why don't you "Chicken Littles" give it a break, the sky has yet to fall if you don't count MA.
 
It sounds to me like the basic description of a community enforced rep system.

These work great, until they don't. You;; find plenty of people willing to gain rep in a load of small deals and then blow it all on one 'big' $xxxx.xx scam.

This.

Plus it would motivate more rep farming and bullshit virtue signalling, thus making the forum even more of a cesspool it is now.
 
player creates 200 page contract, because you know, nobody reads all that crap anyway, and gets all your stuff through a technical loophole :rolleyes:

It may be a good idea if it is handled through a short but effective template by which everyone would be required to adhere to - maybe half a page at the most.




Well thats a well thought out trade system you explained there, however I would be very afraid about the devaluation of expensive items. People simply won;t buy expensive stuff anymore if they can rent it for cheap (yes I say cheap since most people keep undercutting each other)

Maybe it wouldn't change that much at all, or actually increase the value if the rental business is a successful venture, as many people may see the potential to make more ped by renting items.
 
Last edited:
Well thats a well thought out trade system you explained there, however I would be very afraid about the devaluation of expensive items. People simply won;t buy expensive stuff anymore if they can rent it for cheap (yes I say cheap since most people keep undercutting each other)

Is there even a rental system ? I don't think I have ever seen much about one in quite a while. I have seen something about co-ops but that is about it. Also with all the new weapons I would think it would be hard to get 50K deposit on a mod-merc or something like it.
 
Is there even a rental system ? I don't think I have ever seen much about one in quite a while. I have seen something about co-ops but that is about it. Also with all the new weapons I would think it would be hard to get 50K deposit on a mod-merc or something like it.

That was a response to the post from Toast. There aint no rental system ingame.
 
MA could've have made a "lending/renting" system.

They could have done so from day one and earned a pretty penny with it. But pssst, let's not tell them that. Or that they should take a look in support's trashbin where all those suggestions over the years likely landed.
 
Back
Top