PlanetCalypsoForum.com :: Entropia Universe Discussion and Resources
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 40
  1. #1
    Marauder Doer's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2005
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Muddlin' Through
    Avatar
    David "Doer" Falkayn
    Society
    Rangers
    Posts
    7,007
    Blog Entries
    44
    Images
    351

    The Effect of In-Game Skills on PvP

    This is a subject that hasn't received a lot of public scrutiny. My experiences to date lead me to believe that is for the following reasons:
    • PKers are generally willing to believe that any success they have is due to their own IRL awesomeness
    • PKers are generally of a breed that is too short on patience for conducting boring tests and reading of lengthy discourse

    In in words, hyper adolescents and rough-and-tumble brutes are not that interested in divining game mechanics. Fortunately, i am fairly safe in making these statements on account of the the poor chance any of the same will actually read the thread. To be fair, if i was more into PK, my original assumptions regarding this issue would have been better informed.

    Anyway, now that i've vented my frustration at dealing with one too many trigger-happy little punks in the process of conducting tests, let's get down to business. This is a thread about effective hit ability in player-versus-player combat, and the role that Evader and Dodger play. Here's a history of what has been tested before, and the hypotheses and observations. Feel free to skip past the quotes for the executive summary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjukis View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I have a bit of info that might be interesting for your research.
    With imk2 without attachments I have 100% hit rate in pvp (tested on some very high dodge avatars)
    With mm on the same avatars I have quite a bit less hit rate without attachments (my base laser pistoleer HA is 8.0), but even with scopes and lasers that would make my laser pistoleer HA greater than my laser sniper I don't get quite 100%
    Against mobs I don't notice any difference between imk2 and mm with lasers. There might be one but difference between 100% and slightly below 100% is much easier to see than 91% or just under 91%
    So maybe you should add pvp testing to your research as some thing may be easier to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Thanks for sharing this mjukis. This shows that there is clearly a different system used to determine the hit rate on avatars versus on mobs. I didn't realize that 100% hit rate was possible in PvP. I surmise you have >= level 100 (Hit) in sniper.

    It suggests that the skill mod either 1) works differently in PvP situations, 2) scales non-linearly near 10.0 HA (one of the two cases i mentioned in a previous post) or 3) doesn't increase effective HA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ok, curiosity was killing me. I spent some time in the octagon with a mann and m2100. Here's what i've got so far thanks to some help. These are all vs. a player with no Dodger levels.

    Maxed SIB weapon (m2100): 100 shots
    Hit rate 1.0
    No crit hits

    < Level 1 Laser Pistoleer (Hit)) with Mann MPH: 5x100 shots
    Hit rate 0.818 +- 0.043
    No crit hits

    Level ~47 Laser Pistoleer (Hit) with Mann MPH: 2x100 shots
    Hit rate 0.97 +- 0
    1 total crit hit (out of 200)

    Level ~47 Laser Pistoleer (Hit) with Mann MPH + 2x SE600 and 1900RS (28% skill mod -- Effective level 60 (Hit): 2x100 shots
    Hit rate 0.98 +- 0.02
    1 total crit hit (out of 200)

    It apparently is indeed possible to get 100% hits in PvP. What's not so certain is the nature of the range from 0 HA to 10 HA. The base HA gives around 0.8 hit rate -- the same as against mobs -- but even at just halfway to maxed i was getting nearly perfect hits. I think it might be a higher order curve than linear, which would mean that skill mod attachments in PvP would be less effective than against mobs (and also mean that low (Hit) skills in PvP aren't as important); however, it is not certain from my tests if skill mod does anything at all in PvP.


    Using the asymptotic fn(x) = 1/sqrt(x) gives a result that has hit rate ~0.97 at 4.7 HA (plotted above). This function predicts a hit rate of ~0.9 at HA 0.8 and a hit rate of ~0.95 at HA 3. Some tests by players in the range 0.5-3.0 HA would be very helpful at verifying this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It may be that the opponent's Dodger level modifies the curve something like this:


    The problem is, at my HA this equation gives a difference of just 1% in hitrate between a level 0 Dodger and a level 30 Dodger. This function predicts a hit rate of ~0.9 at HA 0.8 and a hit rate of ~0.95 at HA 3. We need some tests by players in the range 0.5-3.0 HA laser pistoleer vs. a level 0 Dodger and a high level Dodger. Volunteers?
    Quote Originally Posted by Doer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    One thing that has been nagging me is that i know i have successfully dodged grenades multiple times. I guess it's possible that the grenader had < 10/10 on the launcher. Less likely is that the hit ability on those works differently. I'll need to ask next time it happens to be sure.
    And finally, thanks to Nebu for challenging my assumptions based on the earlier tests:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I dont have tests, but I know from experience if you fire three rockets into a group of people and hit all of them but miss Joda every time, then his dodger level must play a role.
    You say a different effective HA in PVP, I agree with that. But that is something different than saying "dodge has no effect in PVP".
    In short,
    • PvP appears to have a different effective HA than hunting
    • It is possible to get 100% hit rate in PvP
    • The minimum hit rate for a noob vs a noob is 77-85% (possibly the same as in player vs. mob)
    • The hit rate goes up much more quickly than in hunting
    • It's not clear that skill mod attachments play a role
    • The target's skill does affect the hit rate!


    The last point is the big one, here. I didn't test that at all previously. This is an invitation to start exploring the effect of the target's skill level on hit rate in PvP. I welcome results from others to add to the plot.

    With the focus here being on skills, rather than skill mod attachments, the tests were done with maxed SIB weapons. Specifically, the M2100 and Powerfist from the TT. I also tested a Mann MPH in similar conditions and found that my miss rate was higher (as would be expected), but beyond that, did not investigate the effect of HA on the hit rate. To repeat: all of the results plotted here are with a maxed SIB weapon. Now, with no further ado, here's what i collected yesterday, with many thanks to Hijacker hijacker27 inferno for his patience and helpfulness.


    What you are seeing is that it appears to be a relationship--between the attacker's (Hit) professional standing and the defender's Dodger (or Evader in the case of Powerfist) standing--that determines the hit rate. More tests are needed, but it seems that when the attacker has significantly higher (where "significantly" is possibly 20 levels) Hit than the defender's Dodger, the hit rate will be almost flawless. As the two professions draw closer together, the hit rate declines to at least 85%, which may be the minimum. This makes it possible to reconcile mjukis' experience (getting 100% hits on avatars with high dodge, and then less than 100% with a lower Hit profession) and the previous tests.

    It would be very helpful to have players with high Dodger volunteer to stand still for 10 minutes in the ring.

    PvPer's version: Skills matter.

    Thanks to the following for their helpful participation:
    Hijacker hijacker27 inferno
    Black Hawk Hawk
    Noober to Uber
    Lance Blackthorn
    jwuan marcus
    Micah Hoos McDowell
    Runner Blade Runner
    Cloud
    Thaddeuss
    Beatrix
    Last edited by Doer; 04-11-2012 at 20:39. Reason: Added new test data to the plot, including Coop's; fix plot links after forum armageddon
    Champion of reason, unraveler of MA's mysteries...forever n00ber
    Myth busters: Evade/Defense Skills Weapon damage Armor decay Unlocking Skills Weapon attachments
    Other esoterica: My Story Luck Project Entropia: what's in a name? More bang

    Quote Originally Posted by narfi View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Everything but friendships is clutter

  2. #2
    Wow

    So in pvp higher hit pro standing helps even when using maxed SIB weapons!

    This shatters the idea that skills beyond a certain level are worthless. At least in pvp they can be significant.

    +Rep, and I'll see if I can do a bit of testing.

  3. #3
    Stalker mandu's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2007
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Right behind you!!
    Avatar
    Mandu Mojo Marconi
    Society
    Freelancer
    Posts
    2,017
    Blog Entries
    1
    Images
    126
    As always, good work Doer

    And for the record, I consider myself A white Hat PKer Honor amongst thieves !!

    I'm glad you posted this, because I had heard once, long ago, that dodger/evader didn't affect PVP.

    Back to drone Skilling!!

  4. #4
    Marauder Doer's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2005
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Muddlin' Through
    Avatar
    David "Doer" Falkayn
    Society
    Rangers
    Posts
    7,007
    Blog Entries
    44
    Images
    351
    Some further thoughts:
    • Still no tests on someone more than 20 levels higher Dodger. Does it level off, or keep going down?
    • It's easier to find high Evader, but harder to test melee (no ammo to keep count for you)
    • This changes greatly the criteria for choosing a weapon for PvP:
      • Although many good PvP armors are deficient in Melee protection,
      • most avatars have higher ranged (Hit) than melee (Hit)
      • and most avatars have higher Evader than Dodger
      • Plasma is powerful and long range, but who has good plasma skills?
      • Explosives are " " " ", " " " "
    • It may be that using a SIB isn't as important in PvP as thought
    • But damage is still important
    Champion of reason, unraveler of MA's mysteries...forever n00ber
    Myth busters: Evade/Defense Skills Weapon damage Armor decay Unlocking Skills Weapon attachments
    Other esoterica: My Story Luck Project Entropia: what's in a name? More bang

    Quote Originally Posted by narfi View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Everything but friendships is clutter

  5. #5
    Slayer Hurrikane's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Bristol
    Avatar
    Oscar Hurrikane SkyQuake
    Society
    GloryHound Irregulars
    Posts
    8,355
    Blog Entries
    1
    Images
    225
    I'd say a fair amount of RL factors are important too; speed of connection, speed of PC, responsiveness of mouse, and RL playing skills; I'd say anyone who can charge through Halo or FarCry on hard-as-hell setting would be at a distinct advantage to someone like myself, who still has fun but dies quite a lot

    Hurrikane


    "You wanna see the real me now?"

  6. #6
    Dominant Kahr's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Somewhere on the taiga.
    Avatar
    Thomas Kahr Krestovnikoff
    Society
    Full Metal Inc.
    Posts
    396
    Images
    69
    Interesting. I do hope that skills do have an effect of some kind. I have done a few tests my self that turned out that dodge might not matter in pvp, but as you graceful described it, most pkers dont have much patience, so my tests where very short
    If you need a test person with dodge over lvl 20, i would gladly help. I have just chipped out a bit, needed a bit of ammo money, but i am well over lvl 20
    Last edited by Kahr; 05-27-2009 at 17:02. Reason: spelling like a chipmunk on acid

    Hell was full, so I have returned.

  7. #7
    Guardian Torresta's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2008
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Avatar
    John Asterot Toresta
    Society
    Tax Collectors
    Posts
    242
    Images
    9
    what i want to see is "rl skills vs. ingame skills" thread.

  8. #8
    Grumpy Old Fart Thantos's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Indiana
    Avatar
    Jamez Thantos Brios
    Society
    Pyrates of Calypso
    Posts
    3,700
    Images
    143
    I'm sorry, this discourse was too lengthy for me to read.

    Keep up the good work.

    Don't run, you will only die tired.

  9. #9
    Tested 100 shots with maxed emik s30 by shooter with prof level 6.6

    Code:
    Dodger Lvl            Hitrate
       0                     92%
      15                     85%
      28.8                   81%
      31.5                   76% (not on graph yet)


    There are 25 levels between the shooter and highest target tested, and it seems the hitrate continues to go down.
    Last edited by Coop_; 05-28-2009 at 00:49.

  10. #10
    Marauder Doer's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2005
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Muddlin' Through
    Avatar
    David "Doer" Falkayn
    Society
    Rangers
    Posts
    7,007
    Blog Entries
    44
    Images
    351
    Thanks Coop; interesting to see that the baseline for low (Hit) and 0 Dodger is the same as maxed player vs mob. Maybe there's a unified formula.

    Here's the updated plot with some test results from tonight:


    The low Hit (=11) data from from my first plot was based on just one test at each point, so it's probably not very accurate. Our noober had to run...

    I added the data from an avatar with Hit=6 to yours on the plot.
    Last edited by Doer; 04-11-2012 at 20:40. Reason: Fixed plot link after forum armageddon
    Champion of reason, unraveler of MA's mysteries...forever n00ber
    Myth busters: Evade/Defense Skills Weapon damage Armor decay Unlocking Skills Weapon attachments
    Other esoterica: My Story Luck Project Entropia: what's in a name? More bang

    Quote Originally Posted by narfi View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Everything but friendships is clutter

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Planet Calypso on Twitter  Follow Planet Calypso on Facebook