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Poll: What should be the base return rate?

What should be the base return rate?

  • <= 50%. Give me more swirlies!!

    Votes: 21 7.9%

  • ~60%. Leave the current system in place.

    Votes: 16 6.0%

  • ~70%. More stability, a few less globals.

    Votes: 50 18.7%

  • ~80%. Even more stability, less than half the globals.

    Votes: 84 31.5%

  • >= 90%. Swirlies don't make me happy, give me predictability!

    Votes: 96 36.0%
  • Total voters
    267
Nighthawk said:
I have heard before from some other people that the average returns in hunting is about 80% :scratch2:

EDIT: Actually, removing "no loot"s entirely would make me happier, even if it meant less big loots :)

This is because if you're low on PED and have enough to kill, say, 10 mobs for 2PED each:

10 no looters = 0PED, short fun time
10 x 1PED loots all the time = The returns from earlier "short hunts" would make the same PED last for maybe 20 mobs instead if you go on shorter and shorter hunts, making it be more fun time, but with the same end result.
Click to expand...

Wouldnt this mean that players will also get more skills due to more peds to use, and by that effect in my logic I can predict that skills will drop some in value am I right or am I wrong?
 
well, the more point there is for having skills for the future, the more they will cost, me thinks...


J.

Nixon said:
Wouldnt this mean that players will also get more skills due to more peds to use, and by that effect in my logic I can predict that skills will drop some in value am I right or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
 
Akoz said:
We're not discussing overall return rate. We're discussing base return rate and the frequency of "abnormal" loot sizes.
Click to expand...

Well and what is your opinion about frequency??
 
An interesting poll,

It seems people are more leaning towards predictability with consistency in loot return however not entirely, moreso geared toward the 85% return mark with the occassional swirly from time to time.

Not that this poll would be listened to anyway by MA,
but it would sure make me happy to see this come about one day.

It would make for a much more stable economy too, activity wise and lure in many more participant to become involved.

I know for a fact that this is the biggest catch for the competing RCE at present. Loot return consistency over globals and hofs.
 
But this might be a strech but. if they lowered the drop rates on some of the fragments and spread them out better to fill the no looters. in a way that = the same amount of fragments dropping, but less no looters. this could make the fragments hold value a little better. Becouse you get a better idea of the costs involved.

Becouse fragments drop alot in high numbers and dont fill in the no looters. making Fragments act like worthless loot becouse it drops as a common erratic. but if it dropped every time. but less in numbers according to mob dificulty, then a better price could be set for them, and people might could make some money from selling them.
 
I havent had >60% in months, except once.
 
Shifty said:
I havent had >60% in months, except once.
Click to expand...

If thats true, you're doing something seriously wrong. Can't remember the last time i went below 60%.
 
what if there is also negative hof/global?

I mean after placing probe/killing a mob, system set you a -1000 ped "hof" in next 4000 ped cycle.

That should explain why are some avatars doing much worst than others
 
Get rid of swirlies all together, make it a universe instead of a local-pub pokie machine.
 
Hi,

voted "~80%. Even more stability, less than half the globals."

I'm here since late 2005, and I loved the way we had it then.

I globalled very rarely (since I was full nOOb then) but when I globalled I often had quite nice ones. 500 PEDs on young Atrax, for instance.

Today we have a very different loot distribution, and I cannot agree with it. See here.

It's cool to bribe the long term participants with good loots (Proteron, Atrox, Leviathan), but when the loot on the beginner mobs reaches such a lowest level as we're suffering it today something is wrong. Something that is actually hurting this game!

More than any 100K ATH on proteron we need more 1K's on snables, 2K's on combibo, 3K's on exaro and such - these are the ones that bring new participants. And we need new participants, many of them, to get our economy going again, to reach a state that we had years ago, again. This is the most important quest for MA at the moment!

This game is dieing. Check Twins, or PA - ghost towns meanwhile at certain times. This game might live further for a while of the few huge depositors, but these alone cannot keep it alive!

Without new participants, in huge numbers, we're all doomed. All our gear is worthless if nobody would ever reach the level to buy it. But new participants want a piece of the cake too, to be encouraged to stay.

Have fun!
 
Xandra said:
More than any 100K ATH on proteron we need more 1K's on snables, 2K's on combibo, 3K's on exaro and such - these are the ones that bring new participants. And we need new participants, many of them, to get our economy going again, to reach a state that we had years ago, again. This is the most important quest for MA at the moment!
Click to expand...

I doubt we need more few Ks hofs on small mobs. It was here - not long time ago and ppl were very unsadisfied with it. Hunting feffos or troxes all days only to get shitty loots and to top of it - seeying week-two old noobs getting 5k on snable, wasnt good move.

We need more predictable loots. And more balance.

Each time I see huge Hof (20k+)- I use to say to myself: now 200 players lost their well deserved globals because of bad loot distribution. Very often after such a hof Im logging off.

Not enough big loots in small mobs gatogery is not the problem
Big loot itself is the problem here
Playerbase is too small, managers at MA too ambitious to show to world huge loots and this combination is very painfull for playerbase and destructive fo game.
 
This game is supposed to be all about the real cash economy and the flow of goods. Instead, this game seems to be appealing more to the common gambler. The large ATHs are the carrot, and I think the only thing keeping this economy afloat right now are the people chasing after that.

As soon as those gambler types burn out on the game, you're left with people that have super efficient skills and gear that live off the game, withdrawing peds out of the economy, and the non-depositing sweaters to sell them ME.

With efficient and smart play, and good money and mathematics skills, you should be able to at least break even or turn a small profit. That's how this game should work. MA should be a near invisible hand in this universe. The winners and losers should be decided in the game of markup, not in the game between MA and the players. But if you look at the way players talk, it's all about MA vs. the players.

I consider myself a smart player. I plan everything out VERY carefully. But none of this careful planning or efficient play, or being able to sell 95% of my goods at or above markup has allowed me to profit or break even from the three professions. In fact, I can tell you that since November 29th, I've had an 82.5% TT return rate on money spent (which does not include defensive costs, but those are extremely minimal anyways...).

It is impossible to profit with that type of return. Hell, it's impossible to BREAK EVEN with that type of return. Think about all the stuff we get in our hunting loots. The majority of it is oils, wools and hides, with very low markup. Another good chunk is ammo that has NO markup. Now our loot has been divided even more with this enhancer garbage that has very little markup, and doesn't sell very well, even if listed below markup. You end up with a very small portion of loot that really has any decent type of markup.

Same goes for mining. Half the loot is oil and lyst which completely sucks down the average markup you find from anything decent. Then it seems whenever I go to an area that has predominately things with decent markup, the TT return rate falls through the floor.

Crafting is... well, crafting. We all know how that goes. Every study I've seen that tracked the three professions over a given period of time shows crafting as giving the worst TT returns. My own data shows me the same thing. I always found it odd that the profession that should give the best returns, because it keeps the economy flowing, actually does the opposite.

I find myself slowly coming to a point where I'm losing faith in this game. But not because of my own results. But because I know how these results will reflect on the player who may be a little less inclined. Not every player wants to take up trading and sweating just to stay afloat. But it seems more and more like that's the only way to truly get by in this game.

But if you increase the return rate (or even out the up and down swings) you would have less people resorting to trading and sweating. I would think it would encourage more people to deposit as well, since they feel like it's more of an investment. I would certainly feel more comfortable doing so. As it is right now, I feel I've deposited enough into this game. If I can't get by on that, then there is no point. Because this game is not just entertainment. There are MUCH better, more entertaining games I can play for $20 a month. Since this game has the RCE, and real money can be made, this game is an investment. And if I can't get any type of return on my money, then this is a poor investment, and it will not be receiving any more funds from me.
 
DoubleWolf said:
This game is supposed to be all about the real cash economy and the flow of goods. Instead, this game seems to be appealing more to the common gambler. The large ATHs are the carrot, and I think the only thing keeping this economy afloat right now are the people chasing after that.

As soon as those gambler types burn out on the game, you're left with people that have super efficient skills and gear that live off the game, withdrawing peds out of the economy, and the non-depositing sweaters to sell them ME.

With efficient and smart play, and good money and mathematics skills, you should be able to at least break even or turn a small profit. That's how this game should work. MA should be a near invisible hand in this universe. The winners and losers should be decided in the game of markup, not in the game between MA and the players. But if you look at the way players talk, it's all about MA vs. the players.

I consider myself a smart player. I plan everything out VERY carefully. But none of this careful planning or efficient play, or being able to sell 95% of my goods at or above markup has allowed me to profit or break even from the three professions. In fact, I can tell you that since November 29th, I've had an 82.5% TT return rate on money spent (which does not include defensive costs, but those are extremely minimal anyways...).

It is impossible to profit with that type of return. Hell, it's impossible to BREAK EVEN with that type of return. Think about all the stuff we get in our hunting loots. The majority of it is oils, wools and hides, with very low markup. Another good chunk is ammo that has NO markup. Now our loot has been divided even more with this enhancer garbage that has very little markup, and doesn't sell very well, even if listed below markup. You end up with a very small portion of loot that really has any decent type of markup.

Same goes for mining. Half the loot is oil and lyst which completely sucks down the average markup you find from anything decent. Then it seems whenever I go to an area that has predominately things with decent markup, the TT return rate falls through the floor.

Crafting is... well, crafting. We all know how that goes. Every study I've seen that tracked the three professions over a given period of time shows crafting as giving the worst TT returns. My own data shows me the same thing. I always found it odd that the profession that should give the best returns, because it keeps the economy flowing, actually does the opposite.

I find myself slowly coming to a point where I'm losing faith in this game. But not because of my own results. But because I know how these results will reflect on the player who may be a little less inclined. Not every player wants to take up trading and sweating just to stay afloat. But it seems more and more like that's the only way to truly get by in this game.

But if you increase the return rate (or even out the up and down swings) you would have less people resorting to trading and sweating. I would think it would encourage more people to deposit as well, since they feel like it's more of an investment. I would certainly feel more comfortable doing so. As it is right now, I feel I've deposited enough into this game. If I can't get by on that, then there is no point. Because this game is not just entertainment. There are MUCH better, more entertaining games I can play for $20 a month. Since this game has the RCE, and real money can be made, this game is an investment. And if I can't get any type of return on my money, then this is a poor investment, and it will not be receiving any more funds from me.
Click to expand...

I just want to point out something you said.

You said People treat this like gambling. then you started saying that when you do the same activitys the gamblers do you end up losing the return on investment. Well your allowing yourself to gamble....

But then you said you dont want to resort in sweating or trading. but thing is.

The resellers play off the gamblers, they get their stuff real cheap that is if the gamblers didnt TT the items, then the resellers mark up the item way over the price. They dont use the market for the most part. And the market really does distribute the fees to loot.

The resellers and the gambling is what is killing off the game. But the only thing that will kill off the resellers {Bottemfeeding Resellers some resellers are good} and gamblers. Is True investment, more competion in the markets, in the markets not the streats, better MU's going to the person suppling the items. not to the middleman that bought the item for half the MU to resell for the full. Even if they are buying small amounts..

But Thing is. To have Faith in this game is more than faith in the game. it is faith in humanity. and right now. in my openion. most of humanity is suffering from economic woes, or too greedy that they create economic woes. Some are even to stupid to be involved in economics. some dont care about other people. so many varibles..


This game and real life can really be studied side by side. The money involved in the game is what really makes this true. People put their money where their mouth and feet are. Sometimes they got their feet in their mouths but hey.

I personaly think we should be forming Cartels in game in attempts to control individual markets, spirring higher prices, but also spirring more payouts to producers, and making sure the consumers pay their fair share to the producers and take a small fee in the process. Create such a system that demand from Cartels make shortages in finnished products. That way Crafters Cant Just Fuck around. they will have to literaly craft smart and not gamble. Giving the TT machine all the "Winnings" Thats some dumbass bullshit.

But then again. thats human nature. Wall Streat treated the economy like a casino. and guess what.... Drop rates for Jobs got cut.
 
Everything in life is really a gamble when you come down to it. But in this game, what I'm talking about is: are you playing the game to hit a big jackpot or loot some big items worth a lot of money, or are you playing the game to try to get steady returns? There is a subtle difference there...

And I can tell you, I can not meet MY goals with a continuous 82.5% return rate. There's no good reason the system needs to take 17.5% of my money. I don't pay my brokers that much, and I sure as hell don't feel comfortable paying MA that much...
 
DoubleWolf said:
Everything in life is really a gamble when you come down to it. But in this game, what I'm talking about is: are you playing the game to hit a big jackpot or loot some big items worth a lot of money, or are you playing the game to try to get steady returns? There is a subtle difference there...

And I can tell you, I can not meet MY goals with a continuous 82.5% return rate. There's no good reason the system needs to take 17.5% of my money. I don't pay my brokers that much, and I sure as hell don't feel comfortable paying MA that much...
Click to expand...

yeah but you know the market undersupplys itself so most items will have a mark-up. i feel the problem is not just the constant return, but the lack of people putting money to the mark-ups. you cant have a mark-up without some money to back it. with demand and deposits decreasing, or the deposit money going into the gambling machine. then the mark ups will mean nothing, the wont be backed by any real value. it is just some guy saying hey it really is worth 120% MU. when they got the damn thing for 101% or TT price.

Sure it is profit. but seriously after some time where does that money go? some put it back into the machine, or into the real world.

You have to remember MA has to pay the people that invested money in the past. the way they have to pay these people is to allow big huge payouts on certain taxed lands. Does that mean the common player is a slave to the big investors? Well it seems like it. but the oppertunity is there, but you need money to make money. but i dont know if the risks in the professions is what is needed. investment right into the in game economy however. i dont think you can go wrong there.
 
Lorespade said:
You have to remember MA has to pay the people that invested money in the past. the way they have to pay these people is to allow big huge payouts on certain taxed lands. Does that mean the common player is a slave to the big investors?
Click to expand...

MA is not any more obligated to those players that invested money in the past than they are to you or I. Otherwise the whole game would be a ponzi scheme...
 
DoubleWolf said:
MA is not any more obligated to those players that invested money in the past than they are to you or I. Otherwise the whole game would be a ponzi scheme...
Click to expand...

This is true, but the players still go to these areas, and still feed a return to investment or profits to those who did make the investments. It is dependant on varibles, but the dice can still be loaded in some respects. but i got no proof on that side of things. but i still do feel that MA has no obligations. but if it happens it will.
 
DoubleWolf said:
With efficient and smart play, and good money and mathematics skills, you should be able to at least break even or turn a small profit.
Click to expand...

You can

I find myself slowly coming to a point where I'm losing faith in this game. But not because of my own results. But because I know how these results will reflect on the player who may be a little less inclined. Not every player wants to take up trading and sweating just to stay afloat. But it seems more and more like that's the only way to truly get by in this game.
Click to expand...

why is it everyone that doesn't do well assumes nobody else can?

I honestly don't know how you play or why you think you are smarter than most people playing, but I am suspicious of your 82% TT return if you have a high turnover, are planning things out well, not hunting above your level, not mining in the wrong places and not crafting short runs on condition.

If that return rate is accurate (and you're not counting the markup on your input but not your loot) there are probably a lot things you can adjust to make it better.

Heck the guy that claimed he always gets 15% returns did better than that on the run where he was trying to prove to me how bad his loot was.
 
Karmic said:
Why is it everyone that doesn't do well assumes nobody else can?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that it's not possible. I've certainly had good periods myself, and during those good periods, it was quite possible to profit.

I honestly don't know how you play or why you think you are smarter than most people playing, but I am suspicious of your 82% TT return if you have a high turnover, are planning things out well, not hunting above your level, not mining in the wrong places and not crafting short runs on condition.

If that return rate is accurate (and you're not counting the markup on your input but not your loot) there are probably a lot things you can adjust to make it better.

Heck the guy that claimed he always gets 15% returns did better than that on the run where he was trying to prove to me how bad his loot was.
Click to expand...
Since I started tracking my TT out vs TT in, my overall return is just below 90%. I'm simply referencing the 82.5% since the end of November, as I can see my loot on a definite downward sloping trend since that point (did I mention that I graph my loot as well?)

I wont go into a bunch of detail about my setups (they don't stay constant), but what I can tell you is that I believe in using maxed equipment with high eco stats, finisher weapons to minimize overkill, killing quickly from range to minimize damage from the mob (to the point I maybe only take a hit or two), wearing no armor and fapping as little as possible. To give you an example of my defensive costs, it took me about 4,000 ped spent to burn through an entire 9 ped TT ball fap. That's wearing NO armor, mind you... Would you say I'm pretty efficient? ;) Now apply that mentality to everything else I do here...

Usually I'm sitting in your shoes telling people they are doing something wrong. There's no possible way someone could be getting that kind of return over that period of time without doing something completely wrong. But I've tracked every last pec of TT value I've spent out, and every pec of TT value that I've got in (this is NOT including markup...), and that's where I'm at.

I plotted a predicted trend line awhile back for this bad period I'm on, and I watched as my loot jumped back and forth around it. Little good swings, little bad swings, but never strays too far off. The slope of that trend line is a 83.3% return. There are periods on my graph before this bad period that don't follow this trend, and instead followed more of a break even trend. I was hoping another one of these periods would come a lot sooner than later. It hasn't happened yet. Not to say that it wont though. A period like that I think would be more than capable of putting me back into the 92-95% range.

But this is exactly the point of this thread. It shouldn't take this long for someone's loot to even out to a reasonable return rate. No matter how often they are able to play, or how much they have to spend, or whether or not they are hunting the right mobs at the right time.
 
Loot for all!

I reckon there should be loot for every mob you kill, the "no-loot" sign should be non-existent. The answer is actually pretty simple, just keep loot as it is, and replace all the no-looters with some fragments. Sure fragments might be worth significantly less after that, but at least you loot SOMETHING.

I voted for

~80%. Even more stability, less than half the globals.

Just because when you get a global once this happens, it will be a pleasant surprise since they're so rare. :yay:.
 
DoubleWolf said:
I wont go into a bunch of detail about my setups (they don't stay constant), but what I can tell you is that I believe in using maxed equipment with high eco stats, finisher weapons to minimize overkill, killing quickly from range to minimize damage from the mob (to the point I maybe only take a hit or two), wearing no armor and fapping as little as possible. To give you an example of my defensive costs, it took me about 4,000 ped spent to burn through an entire 9 ped TT ball fap. That's wearing NO armor, mind you... Would you say I'm pretty efficient? ;) Now apply that mentality to everything else I do here...
Click to expand...

Efficient yes, but what mobs are you hunting and how often do you stray from your comfort zone when things aren't going well. You may find you are better off with a good set of (L) armor hunting slightly tougher mobs. I got ahead mostly by mining, it was a long time till I got out of my comfort level in hunting, yes I took some relatively large losses experimenting but I also eventually found much better returns. I still hunt some mobs naked especially now that I'm doing some of the easier quests, but that does increase the cost over well selected armor.

Eco is only one aspect of success, it's a very important one imo, but there are a lot of other things to consider. For one, you may be one of the few people who is actually hunting way below your level and giving up some of the advantages you've earned from skilling.

Certainly if you are honestly getting 82% TT returns not counting the markup of the weapons you're using (if any) using maxed weapons some drastic change would be good even if it doesn't work. I doubt you'd go too much worse unless you got really silly and started hunting atrox with a 2100 or chirpy with a HL15.
 
Actually, removing "no loot"s entirely would make me happier, even if it meant less big loots
Click to expand...
That, I thought, was the reason behind introducing Nova & Blazar fragments. Giving us something with almost zero tt instead of giving us nothing. Glad to hear that someone is "happier" because of these fragments.
 
davidgr1200 said:
That, I thought, was the reason behind introducing Nova & Blazar fragments. Giving us something with almost zero tt instead of giving us nothing. Glad to hear that someone is "happier" because of these fragments.
Click to expand...

well thing is with fragments is the players determine the value of them.

a pure MU item.

but with everyone just looking at the TT value of things. fragments even when it takes .01-.05 to get 20 of them. are completely worthless. (just a example estimate)

i personaly i well over spent on the market just buying them. prefering the market over p2p trading, becouse the bulk i am buying at. and the effects i can see on the market. that even when i buy them on the market for various prices. some prices well over others.. people still sell on the streats for reduced rate.

i am doing this mostly to see human nature at work. it is cheap with no tt value. and i am helping some one out. now i hold alot of fragments. and watching all the profit taking from other traders, and the value dropping so fast so quick. it says alot about how much such a system and item has on a population only out for themselves.

Nothing wrong with that. but i have not seen one person buy on the market to drive prices up and help buy the fragments. the only help i got was from some idiot market manipulator that bought his 100 novas for 32 ped..... while i am moving the whole market upwards naturaly with a real investor based demand.
 
Hi,

DoubleWolf said:
This game is supposed to be all about the real cash economy and the flow of goods. Instead, this game seems to be appealing more to the common gambler.
Click to expand...
It's what I'm seeing as bad, too. The chances to hit nice have been reduced to mining amp gambling, and to killing most expensive critters - this makes this game appealing to gamblers, but alienates common gaming people that don't want to be forced to play at highest stakes to be able to have a little fun, and to be able to hope for a small goodie. Reducing the chance of a good "win" to quite few Uber Markup things, while completely trashing wide parts if the former economy just hurts, for the majority of the participants. Sooner or later they'd realize.

DoubleWolf said:
With efficient and smart play, and good money and mathematics skills, you should be able to at least break even or turn a small profit. That's how this game should work.
Click to expand...
It's possible. Not profiting really, but breaking even over a longer time frame is possible - if you have the skills & gear. As in my case you'd quite often not be able to effectively kill even an Atrox Provider, but grinding on smaller mobs usually works.
It actually makes me laugh reading the complaints of lower skilled newcomers that they'd have burned insane PEDs on Atrox, and still lost big - I don't touch one of these if I'm able to avoid. I'm here to survive, not to gamble for a ATH! Seems to work. I'm here, still, and not losing much.

DoubleWolf said:
MA should be a near invisible hand in this universe. The winners and losers should be decided in the game of markup, not in the game between MA and the players.
Click to expand...
This would be perfect - but face it, we're left with an ever declining player base, and with movements of MA that had brought down the meaning of MU close to zero. Hunting today, if aiming for break even, is a game for TT. There's close to no MU left in what you loot, at least not in the usual loots. There's a few exceptions, but usually TT is what counts. MU meanwhile is something that is meant as incentive for the gamblers, that seem to be the target audience MA caters its game to these days.

So these days some gamblers are gambling for big MU. A lot of the remaining other participants is hunting/ mining/ crafting for TT, nearly completely ignoring MU - they'd just not get it. Best they'd get is TT + a very small amount, that gets eaten up by the auction fee for the biggest part ...

Some eco optimized hunters, quite some hard core sweaters, a few remaining middle class losers, and the few profiting/ withdrawing Ubers - that's what's left. Guess alone war ants and M2S could nurture thousands of fresh newcomers, and make them depositors with a few of their HoF's alone - maybe they'd even agree. But we are not asked.

So the economy is fucked, the demand is below the cellar, all that counts for the majority of participants is pure TT value - this way this cannot work.

Have fun!
 
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