What is the point in giving us attributes when we are not allowed to use them?

Copypaste of Support request I just submitted:

--begin
Category: In-World (Game Play)
Subject of query: Bug Reports
Deposit method: Mob AI BUG!!!
Summary:
Seriously; What is the point in giving us attributes when we are not allowed to use them????
I have experienced the following many times with different mobs at different skill level. Been considering submitting a case before, and forgot about it, but now I'm fed up. You give stamina and agility as mission rewards; and then punish me for trying to use these attributes to my advantage.
The problem is as follows:
When hunting mobs that walk slower forward than i can walk backwards the mob gets UNREACHABLE after a while because it think it is stuck, and I have to stop and wait for it to hit me before I can shoot at it again without wasting ammo. It just happened again when I was hunting Steel Birds outside minopolis and that's even a _flying_ mob with _ranged_ damage.
--end

If anyone else have had the same problem, please send a support case about it; this is just too stupid.

Edit:
As my support case was closed with the message that this is not a bug but a feature; I made a poll and wish to extend my request for people sending support cases to "All issues regarding mob AI ruining gameplay in any way"

complete log of the support case follows:

Hi,

Thank you for this report. I will forward it for further investigation and will get back to you as soon as I hear from our developers.

Thank you for helping us improve Entropia Universe.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support

Click to expand...

Hi, I have discovered that I do in fact not walk faster backwards than the Steel Birds fly, so this bug is apparently a combination of the mob getting fewer attempts to hit me while walking backwards _and_ me being lucky and not getting hits due to my dodge skill.
Witch makes the issue even worse!

Hi again,

This is actually an intended behaviour and not a bug.

I have, however, forwarded your comments to our developers for their evaluation.

If it is decided to implement any changes it will be posted in our News sections.

If there is anything else I may assist you with please let me know.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support

Click to expand...

Ok?
So, what you are saying is that I am not allowed to use a combination of attributes and skills for tactical advantage while hunting???
Did this answer really take into consideration the info form my last update of Nov 22, 2010 12:11 PM GMT?

Yes it was.

Thus the reason I sent your comments to our developers. They will be looking in to this and if they find anything that needs to be adjusted they will and, once and if this is done, we will post it in our News sections.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support

Click to expand...

Ok, thank you for the answer.
Pleas send the following links both to developers and those in chareg at MA:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...update-the-mob-AI-(well-long-overdue-actually!!)
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ttributes-when-we-are-not-allowed-to-use-them

An a nice day to all you at support, that have to deal with us while in our worst of moods!!

-case closed with the following feedback from me:
Is there anything else that you'd like us to know? Support did a great job, but the current mob AI is not acceptable. The only answer that would satisfy me is: It will be changed. And the routines for handling support cases makes me sit without a answer to if that will happen.

What does agility and stamina have to do with walking backwards? All avatars walk forward and backwards at the same speed. If the mob becomes unreachable due to you walking backwards then your obviously doing something wrong and getting the mob stuck behind something. Has nether happened to me.

I think my sig may apply to you .

Ok, might be that all avatars walk backwards at the same speed.. If that is the case I suggest you try hunting steel bird gen 1 or miner bots with a low-dps gun while walking backwards and you will see that they become UNREACHABLE after a while even if they are not stuck.

Edit: I am not sure how easy it is to reproduce on Steel Birds but on Miner Bots this is what happens for sure:
1.When you start shooting at the mob it runs towards you.
2. When it reach the range of its attack it slows down to walking.
3. But since it walks slower than I walk backwards I am out of its range before it launches the first attack.
4. It turns back to running towards me.
5. goto 2. until UNREACHABLE

If I walk backwards with mobs with a lot of hp, this happens quite often.
Imo, the AI needs to be improved in several things, like the target-changing
"issue" (they probably see it as a feature, but if they had to depo money
they too had probably seen it as a issue... ).
Argos can be quite funny too. One freakin' tree in whole area, and the
argo you begin to shoot at, just *have* to walk sideways and get stuck
behind that freakin' tree! Darn chicken!

Fopsie said:

What does agility and stamina have to do with walking backwards? All avatars walk forward and backwards at the same speed.

Click to expand...

Just did some tests.
1. My backward speed changes with the load I'm carrying.
2. With a load of 39.5 kilos my avatar walks faster backwards than a noob carrying only 2.2 kg

So, carry enough crap to encumber yourself to the point where you walk at the right speed. Problem solved, next!

Hagbard Celine said:

Ok, might be that all avatars walk backwards at the same speed.. If that is the case I suggest you try hunting steel bird gen 1 or miner bots with a low-dps gun while walking backwards and you will see that they become UNREACHABLE after a while even if they are not stuck.

Click to expand...

Not a new phenomenon, used to happen a couple of years ago with hunters shooting Combibo at Swamp Camp and as Joat says, I can confirm that Argos are forever getting stuck behind trees and other obstacles. It's just the way they are coded.

So don't walk backwards after the mob has reached you. It doesn't help anyway. The only reason I ever move while the mob is on me is to move closer to, or further away from, other mobs.

Movement speed is not the main purpose of the attributes.

Oleg said:

So don't walk backwards after the mob has reached you. It doesn't help anyway.

Click to expand...

Actually, according to my experience they hit much less often if you walk backwards while shooting them which is probably the reason they implemented the "This mob cannot be sweated/damaged" message ya get when doing that

However, I noticed lately that some mobs get that message a lot even when I am standing still in the middle of a field shooting them usually it is fixed by letting them hit me 1-2 times, but now it sometimes take 5-10 hits... dunno, might be a bug?

So don't walk backwards after the mob has reached you. It doesn't help anyway. The only reason I ever move while the mob is on me is to move closer to, or further away from, other mobs.

Click to expand...

reason to walk backwards when sweating or hunting is so your avatar moves out of their attack range, and also so you can fap without the movement penalty you'd normally get if you just turn and run. You are right, it doesn't help much, but it does help a little when you are right at the edge of their attack range. Also, it helps pull them away from the rest of the herd so you don't agro more of em on accident. With guns, yes, it doesn't help much... with melee, it makes a lot of difference.

The moving back wards was taught to me by many great players when i was younger, for many reasons said in other post.

I would say it makes you harder to hit, and does pull the mob away from the pack

I remember Ah lady oh using the method on spiders in open fields , and also using decoys this was back in 2004 and 2005 where no one tanked spiders but DR members


I get this bug alot, espcially when fighting big mobs like Big bulks and Leviathions... seems they are so big they get in each others ways while trying to bash me todeath.

huh?

Fopsie said:

What does agility and stamina have to do with walking backwards? All avatars walk forward and backwards at the same speed. If the mob becomes unreachable due to you walking backwards then your obviously doing something wrong and getting the mob stuck behind something. Has nether happened to me.

I think my sig may apply to you .

Click to expand...

Uhm... no... avatars do not walk the same speed.... ever tried to do a TP run with newbies? You carrying equipment and such, the newbie being light...? If you had, you would have noticed you run a lot faster than the newbie. Why? Skill difference.

Oleg said:

Movement speed is not the main purpose of the attributes.

Click to expand...

Well, that depends on how you look at the numbers:

The professions that attributes have most impact on is;
Evade for Agility, where Agility is one of 11 skills contributing to this profession and has a skill effect of 8%.
All melee damage professions for Strength, where Strength is one of 9 skills contributing and has a skill effect of 7%.

As to HP:
Numbers taken form a older skill-scanner save of my avatar
Skills Category Level HP-increase HP Gained
Agility Attributes 50,29 40 1,25725
Intelligence Attributes 37,25 80 0,465625
Psyche Attributes 16,67 80 0,208375
Stamina Attributes 1 9,25 0,108108108
Strength Attributes 29,88 20 1,494
Total HP Gained 3,533358108

Athletics General 926,67 533,3 1,737614851
Courage General 1204,21 320 3,76315625
Dexterity General 1021,57 800 1,2769625
Perception General 923,5 1600 0,5771875
Total HP Gained 7,354921101

Combat Reflexes Combat 1387,33 1600 0,86708125
Handgun Combat 2077,72 1600 1,298575
Melee Combat Combat 514,93 533,3 0,965554097
Rifle Combat 2891,43 1600 1,80714375
Weapons Handling Combat 1670,59 1600 1,04411875
Total HP Gained 5,982472847


Drilling Mining 1768,31 1600 1,10519375
Mining Mining 1436,38 1600 0,8977375
Prospecting Mining 1314,21 1600 0,82138125
Surveying Mining 1124,48 1600 0,7028
Total HP Gained 3,5271125

These numbers tell me that attributes do not actually play a major role, neither in professions or HP level.
Regarding running speed there is no data that i can find, but I guess we can assume that except maybe some skills from the General category like for example Athletics most if not all of the skills contributing to it's increase are attributes.

Hagbard Celine said:

These numbers tell me that attributes do not actually play a major role, neither in professions or HP level.

Click to expand...

You may not consider 8% of a level or 10% of a Health point to be significant now, but at higher levels it becomes much more so.

Oleg said:

You may not consider 8% of a level or 10% of a Health point to be significant now, but at higher levels it becomes much more so.

Click to expand...

That might well be, I'm just saying that the numbers indicate that the factor most influenced by attributes seems to be running speed; everything else is more influenced by other skills.

Have had this bug with prowler/stalker Allo's that I was shooting with my Karma Killer, didn't matter if I was standing still or walking it got "stuck" in the middle of nowhere after a while got stuck so many times so I ran out of ammo and wasted all that I had shot in it while mining not fun to have it down to 10% and no more ammo while I calculated to have more then enough to take it down even with my crappy Karma skills...

Oleg said:

You may not consider 8% of a level or 10% of a Health point to be significant now, but at higher levels it becomes much more so.

Click to expand...

And; If it where not for this bug walking speed might have had more impact on the outcome of a fight with a mob than 10% of a health point

Mobs being Unreachable is starting to become very annoying. Not only does this increase decay but definatly increases ammo loss. I was in the crater today and every mob that ran towards me was Unreachable. When a mob was in the open and I shot it I did not get this message. When I approached mobs standing in the open and they argo on me they were Unreachable. I shot at them and got the stupid message " this creature can not be sweated or damaged ... etc" repeatedly.

If you haven't seen this message you are lucky or you obviously do not hunt in the crater. Support case for sure.

Fopsie said:

What does agility and stamina have to do with walking backwards? All avatars walk forward and backwards at the same speed. If the mob becomes unreachable due to you walking backwards then your obviously doing something wrong and getting the mob stuck behind something. Has nether happened to me.

I think my sig may apply to you .

Click to expand...

Wrong....


You can just walk backwards and the mob does not "keep up" with your backwards walking, so it get unreachable...

The mob doesn't have to get stuck behind something to get unreachable and that really bothers me...

Update; just submitted the following additional info to support:

Hi, I have discovered that I do in fact not walk faster backwards than the Steel Birds fly, so this bug is apparently a combination of the mob getting fewer attempts to hit me while walking backwards _and_ me being lucky and not getting hits due to my dodge skill.
Witch makes the issue even worse!

Mobs beeing unreachable just because you walk backwards is getting veeery annoying indeed!!!

Annoying is just the first letter to describe it, and it gets worse; gust got a conclusion form support on this:

Solved:
(Nov 25, 2010 3:55 PM GMT)

Hi again,

This is actually an intended behaviour and not a bug.

I have, however, forwarded your comments to our developers for their evaluation.

If it is decided to implement any changes it will be posted in our News sections.

If there is anything else I may assist you with please let me know.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support

Click to expand...

I declined their conclusion with the following questions:

Ok?
So, what you are saying is that I am not allowed to use a combination of attributes and skills for tactical advantage while hunting???
Did this answer really take into consideration the info form my last update of Nov 22, 2010 12:11 PM GMT?

Nighthawk said:

Actually, according to my experience they hit much less often if you walk backwards while shooting them which is probably the reason they implemented the "This mob cannot be sweated/damaged" message ya get when doing that

However, I noticed lately that some mobs get that message a lot even when I am standing still in the middle of a field shooting them usually it is fixed by letting them hit me 1-2 times, but now it sometimes take 5-10 hits... dunno, might be a bug?

Click to expand...

Exactly these are also my experineces.....and was hoping for a solution



But then this is........

Hagbard Celine said:

Annoying is just the first letter to describe it, and it gets worse; gust got a conclusion form support on this:


Solved:
(Nov 25, 2010 3:55 PM GMT)

Hi again,

This is actually an intended behaviour and not a bug.

I have, however, forwarded your comments to our developers for their evaluation.

If it is decided to implement any changes it will be posted in our News sections.

If there is anything else I may assist you with please let me know.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support


I declined their conclusion with the following questions:

Ok?
So, what you are saying is that I am not allowed to use a combination of attributes and skills for tactical advantage while hunting???
Did this answer really take into consideration the info form my last update of Nov 22, 2010 12:11 PM GMT?

Click to expand...

............... is very frustrating indeed, and not acceptable

Oh yes, Bugs that cost PLAYERS money is called "a feature". Don't worry dear customers, this is how it is intended to work, but we note your frustration and will "most likely" just delete your input.


HILARIOUS...

Got reply for my last question on this case:

Yes it was.

Thus the reason I sent your comments to our developers. They will be looking in to this and if they find anything that needs to be adjusted they will and, once and if this is done, we will post it in our News sections.

Kind regards,

****** | Planet Calypso Support

Click to expand...

Going to update the first-post whit the complete support-log in a minute..
Meanwhile; be sure to vote on my poll

Hagbard Celine said:

It will be changed. And the routines for handling support cases makes me sit without a answer to if that will happen.

Click to expand...

And support said they forwarded it. Do you think the dev guys are sitting on their asses playing patience ? If you can code an A.I in the time they read your support case apply for a job at MindArk but really they have a few systems which need updating/reviewing etc. They are quite busy as you maybe know it. And I bet they LOVE to do a new A.I. system but as for now they are more focused on bringing back old system rather then making new ones.

They wont go ofh look Hagbard made a request for something new, hold the dev on everything else , we need to do this first. Seriously it will come if MindArk thinks it is time to release it.

ranpha said:

And support said they forwarded it. Do you think the dev guys are sitting on their asses playing patience ? If you can code an A.I in the time they read your support case apply for a job at MindArk but really they have a few systems which need updating/reviewing etc. They are quite busy as you maybe know it. And I bet they LOVE to do a new A.I. system but as for now they are more focused on bringing back old system rather then making new ones.

They wont go ofh look Hagbard made a request for something new, hold the dev on everything else , we need to do this first. Seriously it will come if MindArk thinks it is time to release it.

Click to expand...

Yes they forwarded it to the developers; but that does not in any way indicate that we could expect it to get on the list of things to get fixed. This is a long standing issue, and there has been no indication that changing this is on MA's plan at all. So the way I see it is that the only thing we can do in hopes for this issue to be fixed is that as many as possible send support cases about mob AI issues, just to let them know how big an issue it actually is.