Large Scale multiple acct. locks and policing ethics in EU?

Ok, well evidently a bunch of people were locked and as of yet, no explanation has been made public. This brings me to my question and reason for starting this thread.

I am Canadian and in Canada policing practices state the charges upon arrest. Sometimes even evidence is spoken of by arresting officers (ie: "We have several witnesses who saw you steal that chocolate bar.") Before your first appearance in court the courts must give you a "disclosure" which states all the evidence against you which will be presented at trial. What the policing systems DON'T do is arrest you without cause because you were on the same street a crime took place on and hold you until the proper criminal is brought to justice.

HOWEVER.... we are seeing on the news today that in Pakistan everyone from milk delivery persons, to postal workers who have EVER gone to the compound in which Bin Laden was living is being arrested and detained until they can figure out whether or not these people were illegally involved with Bin Laden or Al Qaeda.

So the question is.... Should MindArk's policing tactics be that of a civilized "free" society? Or That of a political gong show they like to call "The War on Terror"?

There really are good points and bad points to both avenues. This current system of locking everyone until things get sorted out DOES keep scammer accusations and potential real life criminal investigations (in the case of RL Credit Card fraud) under wraps but potentially hurts honest and loyal customers in exponential ways. In various threads we see statements of many people now being afraid to invest large money into the game. At the same time.... WHAT IF these current locks stem from a trader doing business in EU with a credit card which belonged to a murder victim IRL? Thing is..... online we never really know who could be on the other end of that avatar.

Discuss.....

Menace

Menace said:

So the question is.... Should MindArk's policing tactics be that of a civilized "free" society? Or That of a political gong show they like to call "The War on Terror"?

Discuss.....

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There is absolutely nothing to discuss.

It is MindArk's platform, they can do whatever they want.

<pssst... read the EULA>

Why is it so many people try to compare the owner of an online game (I.E. private business) we volunteer to play (even allowing us to personally choose how much to spend or not) to a country government?

We're all very happy you are canadian and hate america.. but that really has nothing to do with anything.

The fact of the matter is you sign away all your rights in the EULA, and yes, it sucks. This is why you will never see me putting large amounts of cash in this game again.

Put it another way:

Getting temp-banned from the game is NOT being arrested. It's being kicked out of McDonald's.

Especially when they lock certain accounts in order to help their investigation and tracking down transactions. Happens a bit more often than you think.

JohnCapital said:

Put it another way:

Getting temp-banned from the game is NOT being arrested. It's being kicked out of McDonald's.

Especially when they lock certain accounts in order to help their investigation and tracking down transactions. Happens a bit more often than you think.

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In essence, "guilty until proven innocent", no? ("A burgers missing from the counter...you three, standing closest to the burger that went missing....GET OUT! Ok, get the surveillance video out, lets find out who did it." )

I don't see a problem with this...I just avoid anything that "I" would deem shady and keep myself off of any kind of list. It's their product, and they can handle it anyway they want, especially in the best interest of people and money in the economy.

Chrome said:

There is absolutely nothing to discuss.

It is MindArk's platform, they can do whatever they want.

<pssst... read the EULA>

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I concur. And they state as such in the EULA.

offtopic i have nothing at all against USA

Ontopic... Well, This is Fact now from my side!
I would put a big amount of money ingame if i could, but i cant!
Just the fact that ppl get banned/locked from their accounts are either a "failure in their system" or "something fishy is going on"

I just hope that no innocent will get banned w/o any explenations or excuses!

TheLastKnight said:

In essence, "guilty until proven innocent", no?

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No in essence hold everyone till we know who done it.

Best way to do it although can be unfortunate for the innocent.

The question you need to ask is are u willing to waver this small inconvenience till they find out the facts to a system where they find out the facts then take action at which time scammers would have made away with the money and any action taken ingame would be pretty much useless?

If there was a potentially large scale fraud occurring then MA should lock all parties involved and send a support e-mail explaining the lock. Is your honest claim that in Canada the police would never bring several suspected thieves to the police station for question and investigation before charging the ones they felt were guilty of a crime?

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Procedure_and_Practice/Arrest_and_Detention

495. (1) A peace officer may arrest without warrant

(a) a person who has committed an indictable offence or who, on reasonable grounds, he believes has committed or is about to commit an indictable offence;
(b) a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence; or
(c) a person in respect of whom he has reasonable grounds to believe that a warrant of arrest or committal, in any form set out in Part XXVIII in relation thereto, is in force within the territorial jurisdiction in which the person is found.

Terms of Custody
When a police officer arrests an individual without a warrant, they have the discretion to hold the person for up to 24 hours until charges are laid and they must be prepared to show cause as to why the person should be kept in custody before a Judge of the Court or Justice of the Peace. The Justice will assess whether there is reason to detain the individual or else release them on any conditions.

TheLastKnight said:

In essence, "guilty until proven innocent", no? ("A burgers missing from the counter...you three, standing closest to the burger that went missing....GET OUT! Ok, get the surveillance video out, lets find out who did it." )

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Actually, it would be closer to "You three closest to where the burger was will be held until we have checked your pockets for the burger"

Nighthawk said:

Actually, it would be closer to "You three closest to where the burger was will be held until we have checked your pockets for the burger"

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how about someone was selling stolen car stereos out of the back of the restaurant and the police detained everyone walking around with a stereo in their hands? The burger is gone dude, i ate it.

I can see that they'd have to temp lock all involved while it's investigated, but they should also let them know why.

I don't mean they have to give specific details, but something along the lines of...

"There has been an incident of (generic term here like fraud or such). Your avatar has been connected in some way. Your account is temp locked while we investigate this situation. If you are found to be uninvolved in this incident we'll unlock your account ASAP. We take security very seriously and apologize if you have innocently been caught up in this. Thank you for your understanding."

I just think it's in poor taste to lock someone and not say anything at all. Or do they send something? From what I've read it doesn't seem like they say anything, but I don't really know. Never been locked.

JohnCapital said:

Put it another way:

Getting temp-banned from the game is NOT being arrested. It's being kicked out of McDonald's.

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It's like being kicked out of McDondald's AFTER they already used your credit card to pay for a gigantic meal you just bought there, possibly taking your food away at the same time as they kick you out since you have no control over your assets or deposited peds while you are banned... At least with being kicked out from Mcdonalds you could call the cc company and have them stop the payment since there is some level of consumer protection.

I guess you could call the cc to stop payment on deposited peds too, but that would likely just stall the process even more, especially if you have not deposited lately so there is no current transaction that the cc company would be able to refer to.

I do understand that being locked is very upsetting, on the other side I prefer that insted of ppl losinig their stuff/money becouse MA DONT act. Its so "we" wont lose our ingame assests I'm sure.

If anyone have a better solution to fast solve who was involved or not in "fishy" transaction or not - speak up!
Untill that I will never complain being locked or others being locked as long as its solved as fast as possible by MA.
Insted of investigating first while ppl might move items/peds so it will be even harder returning them.

Just my opinion - I can not see how MA "wins" anything by locking us or how else it be done.

LT

Karmic said:

how about someone was selling stolen car stereos out of the back of the restaurant and the police detained everyone walking around with a stereo in their hands? The burger is gone dude, i ate it.

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Well it is illegal to buy stolen goods if you know it is stolen, so they would have to detain everyone that they knew had bought a stereo at that place until they could determine if they knew (or could had figured out from the price or whatever) that it was stolen, right?

mastermesh said:

It's like being kicked out of McDondald's AFTER they already used your credit card to pay for a gigantic meal you just bought there, possibly taking your food away at the same time as they kick you out since you have no control over your assets or deposited peds while you are banned... At least with being kicked out from Mcdonalds you could call the cc company and have them stop the payment since there is some level of consumer protection.

I guess you could call the cc to stop payment on deposited peds too, but that would likely just stall the process even more, especially if you have not deposited lately so there is no current transaction that the cc company would be able to refer to.

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Yes. The key words here are "...consumer protection." I think we'd all like to know how our in game finances are protected and/or refunded in these types of situations?

Menace said:

HOWEVER.... we are seeing on the news today that in Pakistan everyone from milk delivery persons, to postal workers who have EVER gone to the compound in which Bin Laden was living is being arrested and detained until they can figure out whether or not these people were illegally involved with Bin Laden or Al Qaeda.

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UK anti terrorism laws allow for it but it is /was also being used for other things

Anti-terrorism-laws-used-to-spy-on-noisy-children

and

Canada
In Canada, anyone declared a dangerous offender by the courts is subject to an indefinite period of detention.
United Kingdom
England and Wales has provisions to deal with dangerous offenders similar to what is used in Canada.

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theres how your money laundering could work , stolen cc , depo peds to a bs avatar acct , ingame trade , ingame trade again , withdrawl by final avatar (or invest in high end gear)

comparing to countries and arrest is certainly overegging the situation.

the real problem is MA simply not giving any information. at a minimum they should email those concerned that they have been locked and an outline reason. they should also communicate to the wider community that a large scale investigation is in progress.

but they just dont seem interested in communicting to the player at all, on anything.

JohnCapital said:

Why is it so many people try to compare the owner of an online game (I.E. private business) we volunteer to play (even allowing us to personally choose how much to spend or not) to a country government?

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I rarely agree with anything you post however you hit the nail on the head. This is a game not a country. The anology is not fair. And no I am not defending ma. The locks that have come are troubling but I am sure ma has a reason to do it. Why would you lock your customers that pump money into your business without good reason?

aridash said:

comparing to countries and arrest is certainly overegging the situation.

the real problem is MA simply not giving any information. at a minimum they should email those concerned that they have been locked and an outline reason. they should also communicate to the wider community that a large scale investigation is in progress.

but they just dont seem interested in communicting to the player at all, on anything.

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agreed fully

Well as far i see more and more name's up with account lock. Well all in one i think there are 2 reasons why peoples shouts. 1 would be that MA does not inform's us what happening... technically i see a good choice that they don't do it yet (in case some stolen items or good's are involved in this issue maybe the real one it's not yet blocked and in course of investigation nobody gives out info's or inform the crowd.) .They just could do an announcement that till x-y date will be fixed. Second evereybody shout's about it's invest well upper somebody wrote that is't MA platform and they can do whatever they like. Well 1 part of this is true one part is not ... As long this platform is developed by our '' invest '' as depositing i see it not really '' they can do whatever they like '' but compared to them EULA and TOU ) yes they can do !) Far on i'm 100% sure they have a reason to do it and all issues will be fixed soon. But i have 1 question in case that there are missing items or anything bad what affected peoples put yourself into the affected peoples shoues and i'm pritty sure you would be happy to see '' locked avatars '' to be fixed your problems. Ofc this in case if there are some item problem. In case MA has a bug than no comment ... @ least they should ask for apologies what i'm sure will be due ... they ask for inconvenience caused even when server go offline for update. This issue does not affect only the locked players it affects also them income. So as advice lets stay and wait.. and '' time will fix all the problems ''

from what ive seen in another thread some of the people locked were sent an email why it was locked " investigation of an ingame exploit" just not the exact nature....

Calin said:

I can see that they'd have to temp lock all involved while it's investigated, but they should also let them know why.

I don't mean they have to give specific details, but something along the lines of...

"There has been an incident of (generic term here like fraud or such). Your avatar has been connected in some way. Your account is temp locked while we investigate this situation. If you are found to be uninvolved in this incident we'll unlock your account ASAP. We take security very seriously and apologize if you have innocently been caught up in this. Thank you for your understanding."

I just think it's in poor taste to lock someone and not say anything at all. Or do they send something? From what I've read it doesn't seem like they say anything, but I don't really know. Never been locked.

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Yes i will feel 100% better atm is 6 days with only reply .... i was trying call Ma last night but lady on the phone was saying she can`t help me and she don`t have any other telephone number where i can ring ...... All i know my account is lock for investigation. I`m trader and i have many items belong to other people. Most are on my skype list but some not after 6 days not been online is looks strange and giving my name on bad reputation !!!!!

How ling it will take ? 10 days 30 days 320 days ? wdf

aszek said:

I`m trader and i have many items belong to other people.

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That in and of itself could be a reason. Remember, all trades are final. Hopefully they don't see consignment as an exploit, but it would not surprise me.

mastermesh said:

That in and of itself could be a reason. Remember, all trades are final. Hopefully they don't see consignment as an exploit, but it would not surprise me.

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I never scam and my reputation is really good. In T&C Ma writing

Will I get my items back?

Unfortunately, if you do fall victim of a scam we cannot return any of the lost items or money.


Sow if u giving someone any items u have to trust him .....

No comment it need to be other think then stolen items magic exploit ?

JohnCapital said:

Why is it so many people try to compare the owner of an online game (I.E. private business) we volunteer to play (even allowing us to personally choose how much to spend or not) to a country government?

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And the "freedom" of an Avatar to actually freedom from being arrested irl. Though i'm curoius, too what'S up with those locks

Lady Trisha said:

I do understand that being locked is very upsetting, on the other side I prefer that insted of ppl losinig their stuff/money becouse MA DONT act. Its so "we" wont lose our ingame assests I'm sure.

If anyone have a better solution to fast solve who was involved or not in "fishy" transaction or not - speak up!
Untill that I will never complain being locked or others being locked as long as its solved as fast as possible by MA.
Insted of investigating first while ppl might move items/peds so it will be even harder returning them.

Just my opinion - I can not see how MA "wins" anything by locking us or how else it be done.

LT

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Well said - I join.

How It could be prevented? Do we need team of detectives watching for fraudulent activity in game to catch it at very begining until it not nested too much? Will be expensive. Or instead of helping bad guys to distribute resources or to get to resources we should report on very unusual activities by "newcommers" until fraudulent activity haven't got too deep and involved many of us. Bought rare item cheap from unknown non-skilled person? You are at risk and probably pushed others to risk. Bought PEDs cheap outside game? Uhm... :/ No words...

This may be unrelated to what is actually happening; it's obviously all speculation anyway until verdict is handed down.

Credit Card fraud is probably the single biggest threat to MA and its partners and has the potential to wreck an RCE. If large sums of illegal currency enter the game, the repercussions of removing it from potentially several users down the transaction line (without reimbursement) would financially be very damaging to those users.

I have confidence (more like hope) MindArk is taking painstaking steps to ensure this type of impact to innocent users is minimal.