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FYI: Enhancer consumption doesn't depend on base item

Egg90 said:
I'm nearly finished on the Foul missions for which I've been using my Brave ME to tier up as a cheap tagger. This gun is perfect for foul but I was hoping to keep tiering it on the Argo mission next for which it's a little underpowered. I couldn't find any info on enhancer consumption for lower level weapons so I sent this support case:

support_ticket_1.jpg


This is a real shame, I would use enhancers on it if they lasted longer than on a more powerful gun, but as not it will be far too expensive. Surely it makes sense to increase the chance of an enhancer breaking the more extra damage you get out of it? This would mean alot more enhancers get used by lower level players.

I was a little surprised by the direct & clear answer, I'd expect support of old to give a vauge, ambiguous answer containing the phrase "can't divulge the inner workings of Entropia Universe" or something.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it seems that the support representative has provided inaccurate information in the response to this support case.

I can confirm that the consumption rate of enhancers of all types is directly related to the magnitude of the benefit received.

As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.

I will inform the support team about this so that correct information is provided in the future and we apologise for the miscommunication.
 
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Thank you Bjorn

Hmmm, thanks for that Bjorn...

Bit more clarity is always handy when planning hunting trips :D
 
Kudos for communication from the MindArk rep, minus kudos for misinformation from support. Guess that leaves you with break even. Congrats, MA, you broke even in EU! :lolup:

Now we need to go back to the drawing board and figure out what the break rate per damage is. Also, he said "primarily determined", not "directly proportional. Bjorn, can you be more specific?
 
Also, what about range and crit enhancers? Using crit enhancers on slow laser carbines vs fast powerfists certainly does not look like the breakage rate is proportional to benefit.
 
Bjorn|MindArk said:
Unfortunately it seems that the support representative has provided inaccurate information in the response to this support case.

I can confirm that the consumption rate of enhancers of all types is directly related to the magnitude of the benefit received.

As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.

I will inform the support team about this so that correct information is provided in the future and we apologise for the miscommunication.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, then why not put a counter on enhancers or a percentage used counter, or a decay counter? This would create more reasons to actually start using enhancers. something like "charges", when attached to an opalo it has 2k charges, when attached to a bigger gun it has 50 charges..
 
Spawn said:
If this is the case, then why not put a counter on enhancers or a percentage used counter, or a decay counter? This would create more reasons to actually start using enhancers. something like "charges", when attached to an opalo it has 2k charges, when attached to a bigger gun it has 50 charges..
Click to expand...

There is still a random element. We know this from having enhancers on the same weapon but breaking after significantly different numbers of uses. For example on my H400, I have had an enhancer break after one click while another lasted over 5k clicks.

It's similar to mob loot - more damage (or more cost to kill depending on ur favourite loot theory) leads to generally higher values of loot, but there is still wide range of loots returned from a given mob.

Regards,
KikkiJikki
 
Bjorn|MindArk said:
Unfortunately it seems that the support representative has provided inaccurate information in the response to this support case.

I can confirm that the consumption rate of enhancers of all types is directly related to the magnitude of the benefit received.

As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.

I will inform the support team about this so that correct information is provided in the future and we apologise for the miscommunication.
Click to expand...

thx, but what about random issue? it s random or no? or it s randomly increased according to the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancer???:scratch2:
because you know not everybody like gambling.
dc
 
Think of it as a stateless object. There is no value associated with an enhancer that represents "tt" or "decay", but instead a static "probability of break/dmg" or similar that is the same for every enhancer of that type (i.e. only one entry total for every enhancer of that type, rather than one for each enhancer). Each time you use the object the enhancer is attached to, if a dynamic/pseudorandom number between 0 and 1 is less than the product of "probability of break/dmg" and weapn dmg, the enhancer breaks.

Among other things this saves database writes (e.g. each time you fire a gun).

So the "randomness" isn't really question here, it's whether that probability of breaking depends on damage (which Bjorn confirmed), and whether the formula is more complex than that. For example, it might not be a linear relationship.
 
Egg90 said:
This is a real shame, I would use enhancers on it if they lasted longer than on a more powerful gun, but as not it will be far too expensive. Surely it makes sense to increase the chance of an enhancer breaking the more extra damage you get out of it? This would mean alot more enhancers get used by lower level players.

I was a little surprised by the direct & clear answer, I'd expect support of old to give a vauge, ambiguous answer containing the phrase "can't divulge the inner workings of Entropia Universe" or something.
Click to expand...

What a nice proof that support answers aren't worth shit.

Everybody who has tried that already knows that enhancers last longer on an opalo than on a bigger gun.


Consumption is random, that much is true, so th support answer isn't really false, but the RATE at which they are consumed isn't.


I wonder, and already for years, if these ambiguous answers are given on purpose or just because they can't give a proper definition of anything.
 
Stryker said:
Yes, it's old news. In my own tests, and when comparing with others who track, the average break-rate does seem to be around the advertised 1,000 shots for damage enhancers (tested on MM, imk2).

This is a fallacy due to the fact that the break-rate should coincide with ammo consumption, similar to the manner in which other weapon mechanics exhibit. You aren't charged static X PED ammo per shot, are you?
:bs:
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on the other hand,... it is an incentive for ppl to upgrade their guns :)
 
Bjorns post is total bullshit.

During mayhem this year i have been using a tier 5 Mod Merc with damage enhancers on all slots, i had 1 server crash were i lost 38 minutes.
During the 29 hours and 22 minutes i have been shooting, 625 damage enhancers have been consumed on the weapon.

A ingame freind also competing in category 3 have been using a Unlimited Emik X5 Tier 6 with damage enhancers on all slots, he used 330 damage enhancers on the same amount of time, he had ~2*20 minute crashes.

If we compare this 2 weapons base damage and if we are maxed on both which im not on Mod Merc this is the stats.

Mod Merc
T0 66.74 dps

Emik X5
T0 60.08 dps

The mod merc has 10% more dps than a Emik X5.
If we look at Bjorns post this should mean that for average the Mod Merc should use 10% more enhancers than Emik X5 if used at same tier, that is atleats how i read it.

With this said i wonder how a Mod Merc T5 can spend almost twice the amount of enhancers than a Emik X5 at T6?



Bjorn|MindArk said:
Unfortunately it seems that the support representative has provided inaccurate information in the response to this support case.

I can confirm that the consumption rate of enhancers of all types is directly related to the magnitude of the benefit received.

As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.

I will inform the support team about this so that correct information is provided in the future and we apologise for the miscommunication.
Click to expand...
 
toad said:
Bjorns post is total bullshit.

During mayhem this year i have been using a tier 5 Mod Merc with damage enhancers on all slots, i had 1 server crash were i lost 38 minutes.
During the 29 hours and 22 minutes i have been shooting, 625 damage enhancers have been consumed on the weapon.

A ingame freind also competing in category 3 have been using a Unlimited Emik X5 Tier 6 with damage enhancers on all slots, he used 330 damage enhancers on the same amount of time, he had ~2*20 minute crashes.

If we compare this 2 weapons base damage and if we are maxed on both which im not on Mod Merc this is the stats.

Mod Merc
T0 66.74 dps

Emik X5
T0 60.08 dps

The mod merc has 10% more dps than a Emik X5.
If we look at Bjorns post this should mean that for average the Mod Merc should use 10% more enhancers than Emik X5 if used at same tier, that is atleats how i read it.

With this said i wonder how a Mod Merc T5 can spend almost twice the amount of enhancers than a Emik X5 at T6?
Click to expand...

x5 has 56 attacks per minute
mod merc has 86 attacks per minute

mod merc: 625 enhancers/1762 minutes = 0.3547 enhancers per minute /86 uses per minute = 0.00412 enhancers per shot.
x5: 330 enh/1762 mins = 0.1872 enhancers per minute /57 uses per minute = 0.00382 enhancers per shot.

I guess if you were to test this more scientifically.. exact time and without in between crashes, same tier level, the numbers would be closer.

its not about the items damage it´s about the times you can use the gun per minute.

the best item to put enhancers on is an item that has high damage and slow attacks per minute, like a raw gun or a baringer.
 
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I guess you only did read my post and not the first post in this thread and Bjorns post?
It seams to work more like you say but that is very diffrent from what Bjorn said in this thread.

Spawn said:
x5 has 56 attacks per minute
mod merc has 86 attacks per minute

mod merc: 625 enhancers/1762 minutes = 0.3547 enhancers per minute /86 uses per minute = 0.00412 enhancers per shot.
x5: 330 enh/1762 mins = 0.1872 enhancers per minute /57 uses per minute = 0.00382 enhancers per shot.

I guess if you were to test this more scientifically.. exact time and without in between crashes, same tier level, the numbers would be closer.

its not about the items damage it´s about the times you can use the gun per minute.

the best item to put enhancers on is an item that has high damage and slow attacks per minute, like a raw gun or a baringer.
Click to expand...
 
toad said:
I guess you only did read my post and not the first post in this thread and Bjorns post?
It seams to work more like you say but that is very diffrent from what Bjorn said in this thread.
Click to expand...

check the second post in this thread?

ahh I see now.. NO I didn't remember the post by bjorn somewhere in the middle, perhaps because I didn't believe it. I guess my second post in this thread is valid.. they are lieing. Gabriel is not, Bjorn is to get more people to use enhancers.
I guess we need the likes of Jimmy, recoda and Doer to confirm it.

If there is unclarity it takes this community to dig up the real facts. Remember the scopes/lasers mishap? This is something with the same unclarity.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...1-What-does-scopes-and-laser-sights-really-do
 
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Ok, so I've just been doing some maths and it seems like it's more complicated than just one solution.

Toad - your problem that you have comparing break rate to minutes spent (rather than shots) is that you will have different hunting styles, and armour, faps, etc so the actual number of shots will differ.

Personally, I see enhancer break rate as being a mix of two things: both shots per enhancer, and magnitude of benefit.

It would be interesting to test this with a break rate comparison between a static bonus enhancer (e.g. range) and a percentage bonus enhancer (e.g. dmg).

That is your only real comparison method - put both dmg and range enhancers on your MM and click 50,000 times, then do the same for the x5 with the same number of shots. That would give you a good comparison benchmark where we can then figure out what the real factors for break rate are.
 
toad said:
I guess you only did read my post and not the first post in this thread and Bjorns post?
It seams to work more like you say but that is very diffrent from what Bjorn said in this thread.
Click to expand...

Why are you treating the "rate" used in Bjorns post as indicative of time in seconds and not uses?
 
Because in mayhem i know that both the X5 shooter and myself has been shooting pretty much nonstop, we both had uber armors and imp faps so fapping was close to zero for both of us, i also know he did more damage than me so if Bjorns post would be correct i should have spent around the same amount of enhancer as he did or maybe even less since i had 1 less enhancers slot.
The mod merc was borrowed and the original owner also spent over 600 enhancers on his 30 hours with it.

remontoire said:
Why are you treating the "rate" used in Bjorns post as indicative of time in seconds and not uses?
Click to expand...
 
Aio said:
It would be interesting to test this with a break rate comparison between a static bonus enhancer (e.g. range) and a percentage bonus enhancer (e.g. dmg).
Click to expand...

All enhancers are % based, even range. You can check by using the same enhancer on two weapons with considerably different ranges. You get a much larger increment on Marber Bravo compared to say handguns.

Aio said:
That is your only real comparison method - put both dmg and range enhancers on your MM and click 50,000 times, then do the same for the x5 with the same number of shots. That would give you a good comparison benchmark where we can then figure out what the real factors for break rate are.
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The breakage rate of two enhancers on a weapon doing x/2 damage vs 1 enhancer on x damage has not been tested. So any initial test should start with just one enhancer in use. Actually, we don't even know if old style non-sib has the same break rate as sib of the same damage.
 
Range enhancers is not static, the range added is in % of the range of the weapon.

Accuracy and Skill mod enhancers is static, Accuracy adds 2 on critical hit ability and skillmod adds 0.5 level i think.

Aio said:
Ok, so I've just been doing some maths and it seems like it's more complicated than just one solution.

Toad - your problem that you have comparing break rate to minutes spent (rather than shots) is that you will have different hunting styles, and armour, faps, etc so the actual number of shots will differ.

Personally, I see enhancer break rate as being a mix of two things: both shots per enhancer, and magnitude of benefit.

It would be interesting to test this with a break rate comparison between a static bonus enhancer (e.g. range) and a percentage bonus enhancer (e.g. dmg).

That is your only real comparison method - put both dmg and range enhancers on your MM and click 50,000 times, then do the same for the x5 with the same number of shots. That would give you a good comparison benchmark where we can then figure out what the real factors for break rate are.
Click to expand...
 
toad said:
Range enhancers is not static, the range added is in % of the range of the weapon.

Accuracy and Skill mod enhancers is static, Accuracy adds 2 on critical hit ability and skillmod adds 0.5 level i think.
Click to expand...

Fair, I never use range enhancers.

Yeah, accuracy is a static +2CA. Difference in break rate between those and dmg on different weapon types would be interesting - especially as previous tests have show approx 1k usage of accuracy enhancers.
 
toad said:
Because in mayhem i know that both the X5 shooter and myself has been shooting pretty much nonstop, we both had uber armors and imp faps so fapping was close to zero for both of us, i also know he did more damage than me so if Bjorns post would be correct i should have spent around the same amount of enhancer as he did or maybe even less since i had 1 less enhancers slot.
The mod merc was borrowed and the original owner also spent over 600 enhancers on his 30 hours with it.
Click to expand...

You are still thinking in terms of dps, and damage done over time, not damage per shot, and the chance per shot of losing an enhancer.
 
remontoire said:
You are still thinking in terms of dps, and damage done over time, not damage per shot, and the chance per shot of losing an enhancer.
Click to expand...

29 hours of mm tier 5 + a204 is 29 * 60 * 86 * 120.50 = 18031620 of potential damage delivered. The same amount of damage with x5 tier 6 + evil is 99293. Which is ~ 1.5 times less uses. So to explain the difference, I need to find a plausible reason why MM breaks enhancers 1.3 times faster per use compared to X5.

Well...
 
Is it possible that the tier numbers plays a part in the enhancer breakage formula?

A gun or fap with four digit numbers will tier faster than the two digit numbered guns and faps , so is it possible the enhancers are connected to this tier rate as well?


Bones
 
Bjorn|MindArk said:
As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.
Click to expand...

What if "consumption rate ... is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage" is actually correct but non-linear?

Amount of additional damage 1: chance 1 in 10k of break
damage 2: chance 1 in 2.5 k of break
damage 4: chance 1 in 625 of break
damage 8: chance 1 in 156 of break

If you were to use a gun that fires 1 dam at 60 per minute it would last for a damage of 10k and 3 hours
If you were to use a gun that fires 8 dam at 7.5 per minute it would last for a damage of 1.25k and 20 mins

Both weaps are doing the same dps though.

Result of test theory: seems to be the wrong way round....

Amount of additional damage 1: chance 1 in 10k of break
damage 2: chance 1 in 7.5k of break
damage 4: chance 1 in 5.625k of break
damage 8: chance 1 in 4.22k of break

Now with a gun that fires 8 dam at 7.5 per minute it would last for a damage of 33.7k and about 9 hours.

This way round would mean a high-powered but slow weap is better at the same dps. Isn't this what Spawn is saying, which matches what Toad got as results AND is what Bjorn has said (at least in principle)?
I realise the weightings are off and the weaps in Toad's example are not as extremely different as in my test calculation... but still!

Small PS edit and correction to a mistake above:
I believe the amps don't count towards the extra enhancer damage, thus not to their decay either, but they affect the dps of the gun used. Therefore you would have to take the amps off before trying to find equal dps comparisons...
 
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remontoire said:
Well...
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Read - "I'm so very fucked after actually having run the numbers". And not just one set.

jetsina said:
This way round would mean a high-powered but slow weap is better at the same dps. Isn't this what Spawn is saying, which matches what Toad got as results AND is what Bjorn has said (at least in principle)?
I realise the weightings are off and the weaps in Toad's example are not as extremely different as in my test calculation... but still!
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That would be the reverse of what Bjorn said.

Its quite simply, if the weapons had the same damage :
  • the one with more slots open should see more enhancer breakage / use
  • the one that was used more should see proportionally more breakage

And if guns were of unequal damage, the one with more damage would see more breakage.

Trouble is, we have two of these reversed, and I can't make the extra number of uses make up for the rest.
 
It's so funny how people are forced to look at almost every word of a statement to find a combination of meanings which MAY actually be correct.
Just to explain what I mean above: I take 'rate' as not necessarily a time word, but here as 'number of uses'.

It is thus possible for the high power gun to get fewer shots per enhancer, but to make more damage while doing so. More damage at the same dps literally means they also last longer in time terms, which is why you can burn through more enhancers per hour in MM while spending the same amount of time in there.

I also assume each enhancer level is independent, so that with tier x you can simply use x levels of enhancer, each with decay primarily determined by the extra damage EACH one does.

One further point is that the enhancers are in some way an opposite to amps if Spawn is right, which if more eco than the weapon should be used on weapons that fire as frequently as possible for whatever dps.

Still, if using enhancers pays off at some point on some weapons (paying off not guaranteed due to mu), then it will always be better to use an amp as well with it than not (unless killing snables or so).
 
toad said:
The mod merc has 10% more dps than a Emik X5.
If we look at Bjorns post this should mean that for average the Mod Merc should use 10% more enhancers than Emik X5 if used at same tier, that is atleats how i read it.

With this said i wonder how a Mod Merc T5 can spend almost twice the amount of enhancers than a Emik X5 at T6?
Click to expand...

Bjorns post said that the break rate is directly linked to the additional benefit, note the use of the the word "directly" instead of "proportionally". This could mean that the increased break rate is not a 1:1 increase but more of an exponential curve.

For example:

Gun A: dps - X break rate - Y
Gun B: dps - 2X break rate - 3Y
Gun C: dps - 3X break rate - 6Y

He also said that in the case of damage enhancers that the break rate is primarily determined by the additional damage, not exclusively determined.

It's possible that the significant difference in dpp (2.782 vs 3.043) plays a role too, since in effect the "benefit gained" with the MM is higher because it is a more economical gun. We are already know from MA's statements that eco plays a significant factor in tiering costs, so they obviously do consider it important.

The break rate on my T4 DOALM (45.8 dps, 2,759 dpp) during mayhem is around 4 - 6 enhancers per hour (haven't tracked it accurately unfortunately).

So assuming 5 per hour on average and compensating for two extra tiers and approximately1/3 more damage:

5 * 30 = 150 * 1.5 = 225 * 1.33 = 300 enhancers.

Which factoring in the slightly lower dpp on the DOA seems to be in the right ballpark, assuming I'm right.

Not defending Bjorn's statement, just offering a potential explanation ;).
 
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