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Grenades

wizzszz said:
Quote from the opening post (emphasis in red mine):

Quote Originally Posted by darkmatter2222 View Post
Just about all shooter games have grenades. I'm not talking about grenade launchers.
Just a hand thrown grenade.
maybe different types?
It seems you've read every single word in this thread before telling me that this is all trivial...
(Line above is sarcasm btw... )
Click to expand...

Sorry for the bad quoting. Seriously though, if we are going to argue reading comprehension too, you clearly stop reading whenever you feel like it. Keep reading his post, see the discussion about different types of grenades. I will try and break it down for you. He knows we already have grenade launchers, he's not talking about simple grenade launchers, what he's talking about is different types of hand thrown grenades. see all the types he suggests, see where he says he's going to post a different type of grenade that can be made. This says to me, that he's interested in seeing grenades that have different effects. Not that he gives a rats ass about someone that thinks it's not possible to code the mechanism of launching a grenade without a launcher. I would even make the leap to say that he might be happy with a different type of grenade launcher that launches grenades that have the effects listed above.

Yes, sometimes it's just fun to argue to make you blow up all over your keyboard.


I have read the entire sentence, and, as you see no point in argueing (under whatever circumstances), why not simply stop it?
Click to expand...

again, you refuse to read, I specifially told you what i don't believe there is a point in arguing, not that there is no point in arguing anything. You decided how the EU code works without looking at it, I don't think either of us can say if you are right or wrong, I think you and I both don't know exactly how it works so arguing details about that is pointless. But, I'm sure you will continue to misrepresent what I said. I agree with you that i lack knowledge about exactly how EU works, you're the one that claims you do.

I also posted my trivial workaround (to your system not the unknown EU system). You decided that if you're wearing a glove then you are not throwing things with your hand. I also specifically used the word trivial to bait you.
 
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Karmic said:
Sorry for the bad quoting. Seriously though, if we are going to argue reading comprehension too, you clearly stop reading whenever you feel like it. Keep reading his post, see the discussion about different types of grenades.
Click to expand...

I have only comment on the "hand thrown" part - and not on the "type of grenades" part.

And you perfectly know that.


Karmic said:
Not that he gives a rats ass about someone that thinks it's not possible to code the mechanism of launching a grenade without a launcher. I would even make the leap to say that he might be happy with a different type of grenade launcher that launches grenades that have the effects listed above.
Click to expand...

Oh, so your (far stretched) interpretation of the opening post is now better than mine?

Seriously, that's poor - we were SO close to find out that with this...

Karmic said:
I design computer systems for a living and often have to modify things to do stuff they weren't originally designed to do
Click to expand...

you just meant that you make design toasters out of old computer casings and instead you jump off the hook and tell me that the thing we (yes, you, too) have argued about on the last page is completely irrelevant to the thread topic (which is even completely misinterpreted, deliberately it seem i might add)


Childish, really, just admit that your "workaround" is bullshit - if you got the balls to do so - and stop distracting.

I am tempted to report you to the mods for deliberately derailing this thread, your last line speaks volumes.
 
Level of comprehension in this forum is pathetic.
If you can't understand Wizz's posts - which make complete sense too, I must add - then you're simply lacking in communication skills.

What he is saying is totally understandable and very logical.


edit: Please also note, (1)Wizz is not saying it's impossible. (2)Wizz is saying that with current systems, it would take some fundamental mechanics changes, of which he would not be confident in letting MA mess with given their track record of implementation. Capiche?

edit2: I do not know Wizz, personally, in-game or otherwise.
 
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Profit said:
Level of comprehension in this forum is pathetic.
If you can't understand Wizz's posts - which make complete sense too, I must add - then you're simply lacking in communication skills.

What he is saying is totally understandable and very logical.
Click to expand...

yeah, & if everyone would do like he suggests we would still all be playing pong :wtg:
 
maybe you could have a "grenade box" (similar to a mindforce chip or implant)...
that you could equip like a chip, or stays equipped like an implant
(you would never see this equipped, only the animation of you holding/throwing grenades)

and there could be different levels of grenades (such as there is different ammo/mind essence)...
higher the level, higher the cost, higher the damage
(perhaps similar to mining amps in association to finders)

wizzszz said:
Simple reason - it simply doesn't fit into the EU concept of "equip tool, using it consumes stackables and/or decays tool" - that's why we don't have things like health boosting one-time use injections, too...

Just look at how anti-toxic shots are working.
Click to expand...

I think all of the systems in one way or another easily support the possibility of grenades! :nana:

(and throwing knives!)
 
das said:
yeah, & if everyone would do like he suggests we would still all be playing pong :wtg:
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You misunderstand.
In a nut-shell, he's saying it would be difficult to pull off, NOTHING ELSE. He's not saying it cannot be done, he's not saying they shouldn't try. He's saying he personally would not be comfortable with MA screwing with things again.

WTF is wrong with people today? Geez.

[edit]Actually, he's not even saying it would be difficult, he's saying that with current game mechanics, a change would need to be made, in order for the grenades to work as an offensive, decaying, loot-mechanic-actioning function.
It's the fact that MA would need to change something fundamental, that he's not comfortable with.

Maybe my comprehension is fkd, but that's my take on it. I don't want you guys to jump on me for trying to clarify things, so I'll allow you to continue on the downward spiral of thread-death.
 
Profit said:
You misunderstand.
He's saying he personally would not be comfortable with MA screwing with things again.
Click to expand...

So, no progress..
I don't see wich part I misunderstood.
Personally, I see more usage in this then for ex. create more L PF so we can max a 20 dps UL weapon in 10 years..
 
He didn't say don't do it. WTF how has this become such a shit storm?
Honestly, I don't know what to say... I don't know most of you outside of seeing a few forum posts, but do you guys speak english as a first language?
Because a lot seems to get "lost in translation" around here...
 
Profit said:
He didn't say don't do it. WTF how has this become such a shit storm?
Honestly, I don't know what to say... I don't know most of you outside of seeing a few forum posts, but do you guys speak english as a first language?
Because a lot seems to get "lost in translation" around here...
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Let me use simple words. It would be interesting to have different types of grenades that do different things. I don't see how it would be any more difficult to implement than, lets say, vehicles. We just got flame throwers (dot) damage, and continuous fire weapons and the world didn't end.
 
Proximity, timed, and remote detonation would I think, be fun also :)

Remote controlled detonation charge aggro hunting would seem quite fun to me. Run, drop a charge and detonate when the mob runs it over. :D

I am sure PVP would have all sorts of use for them as well.
 
Cron said:
Proximity, timed, and remote detonation would I think, be fun also :)

Remote controlled detonation charge aggro hunting would seem quite fun to me. Run, drop a charge and detonate when the mob runs it over. :D

I am sure PVP would have all sorts of use for them as well.
Click to expand...

Oooh, that gives me another idea: Mines you can burrow! :)
 
wizzszz said:
you just meant that you make design toasters out of old computer casings and instead you jump off the hook and tell me that the thing we (yes, you, too) have argued about on the last page is completely irrelevant to the thread topic (which is even completely misinterpreted, deliberately it seem i might add)


Childish, really, just admit that your "workaround" is bullshit - if you got the balls to do so - and stop distracting.

I am tempted to report you to the mods for deliberately derailing this thread, your last line speaks volumes.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about with the design toasters stuff but I write and design software yes, and often the original concept is modified partway through so that someone has to come in and modify what they can, and discard and rewrite what they can't. Yes, I think the thing we were arguing was irrelevant to the thread topic and i felt you deliberatly derailed it to talk about the mechanism of how to equip an item and decay ammo. I would consider someone wearing gloves and throwing a grenade a Hand-thrown grenade, I would also consider, as Narfi did, to implement the weapon statistics on the grenade itself and decay as normal, or the grenade box idea. all of which are "trivial" solutions, that involve some amount of coding.

You derailed this thread but go ahead and report me if it will make you happy.

On topic - Area of effect gas grenades.
 
All Wizz was saying was that it would need a change in mechanics and y'all got angsty and argued that it wouldn't need a change in mechanics then twisted the conversation into this heaping pile...
 
Nova Grenades (a good use for novas)
 
These could be off use in pvp and would be pretty cool i think:

Flash bangs and smoke grenades


Shouldnt invole any major overhaul on the games loot/decay mechanics lol :D
 
Cluster Bombs! (for small mob iron challenges) :yup:

EDIT: Idea!... the more grenades you put into each use, the more you throw in 1 use
(like how you can multi-bomb, mining for ores and enmats at same time)
 
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Blazar Grenades as well to.... Freeze an enemy attack?
 
basically guys, just have "use grenade" in action library and just hotkey it and click it whenever, if u have grenades in ur inventory than they get used

there can be a skill called throwing weapons and it could encompass grenades and throwing knives

make em do damage to a certain area, but a decent amount too

make em be craftable, with certain tt's doing a certain amount of damage, as your skill goes up, then ur ability to use more expensive tt grenades, and thus the ability to inflict more damage becomes possible. It could be like a grenade launcher, but be faster, but have less range and one can use it when their gun is reloading
 
wizzszz said:
You dont understand - the game mechanism requires to decay the held tool/weapon:

If you throw a grenade, the status must be set to "Nothing held", and this "Nothing" is then decayed by the system... that's like "Division by zero": bad idea! :p

And, the SIB and things like HA/CHA & dmg range are tied to the used tool, too...
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Just to point out all you're BS
How come guns in space on quads, mothership guns DON'T DECAY & you can get loot with them from shooting MOBS?
 
das said:
Just to point out all you're BS
How come guns in space on quads, mothership guns DON'T DECAY & you can get loot with them from shooting MOBS?
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Dude, this has become a farce pages ago already.

And now you pop up with a line that proves that you haven't understand shit, trying to "point out my BS"?

Nonetheless, nice guy that i am and despite your inappropriate and very likely alcohol induced tone, i will try to help you understand:



I haven't said anything about any (adverse or positive) effect on loot in my posts - and if i used the term decay w/o explicitely adding "ammo" i was using the term decay as seen here on the forums in loot debates every day: denoting overall PEDs spent - this includes "ammo costs" as well as the verbatim use of the word decay as in "repair costs".


And btw, to my knowledge, quads do not have a non-decaying gun.
Well, at least mine hasn't - perhaps it's bugged? Would you suggest me to file a support case?


Oh, and there are plenty of loot theories claiming that there is NO relation whatsoever between PEDs spent and return, but you present this as if it were fact - are you maybe an undercover MA employee?



It seems all you've been pointing out was your level of alcohol intoxication - that you can still type is really impressive.
Are you maybe in the wrong thread? I mean, nobody said "no decay means no loot"... Is that really what you grasped from this thread?
 
wizzszz said:
And btw, to my knowledge, quads do not have a non-decaying gun.
Well, at least mine hasn't - perhaps it's bugged? Would you suggest me to file a support case?
Click to expand...

The vehicle weapons (including your kismet) do not decay when fired (only ammo contributes to dmg done.)
They do decay when the vehicle they are attached to take dmg which incurs tt decay(pvp or horror dmg.)

If your guns have decayed it is because the vehicle they were attached to where damaged in a way that deccayed some of its tt as well. (not running into plants and buildings, etc... which only damage the SI)

narfi
 
yes, pls make a support case & ask them WHEN your mounted weapon decays.
Maybe then you will understand the availlable mechanics ingame.
& FYI, I didn't drink any alcohol in the last 24h, haven't been so sober in quite a while.. maybe that's my problem.:scratch2:
So, mothershipguns are not a correct example of a non decaying tool that can generate loot?

EDIT: inappropriate and very likely alcohol induced tone are maybe the result of an inappropriate and very likely alcohol induced - rep?
 
narfi said:
The vehicle weapons (including your kismet) do not decay when fired (only ammo contributes to dmg done.)
They do decay when the vehicle they are attached to take dmg which incurs tt decay(pvp or horror dmg.)
Click to expand...

Tbh, if it wasn't for this thread i couldn't care less ;)

Ty, for the clarification nonetheless :)


das said:
FYI, I didn't drink any alcohol in the last 24h, haven't been so sober in quite a while.. maybe that's my problem.:scratch2:
Click to expand...

Maybe that's the problem, indeed - what about drugs? Maybe you had (or still have) a hard childhood? ;)

das said:
So, mothershipguns are not a correct example of a non decaying tool that can generate loot?
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Errm, you are still in the wrong thread - nobody here was talking about loot, not really.

Motherships guns do not decay, we already knew that (i've been wondering about QUAD guns only) - and what the heck got this to do with this thread?

Equipping a gun/item means the server knows what he got to decay when the user pulls the trigger - if nothing is equipped, you can't calculalte the decay... as i said earlier, if you want to subtract zero from something, there HAS to be something you can subtract from, even if its only zero - this is still a mathematical operation the server will do (the server is a bit stupid, you know, he doesn't notice that there is nothing to subtract) - nothing equipped means -0 from an invalid gun/item...

Please, DO read it, and if you have questions on what i actually wrote in this thread... like the state model i outlined, or why i think this has become a farce long ago... :p ... well, i'll happily answer them.

das said:
EDIT: inappropriate and very likely alcohol induced tone are maybe the result of an inappropriate and very likely alcohol induced - rep?
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Judging from the comment in your rep... if you're sober it must've been the evil solar spots?
As far as i am concerned: i drink alcohol like... once, maybe twice a year?!
(kills too many brain cells and makes people read things into threads nobody has written there... )




And, seriously, wtf? Did go "reading posts before you comment on them" out of style while i was away?
 
wizzszz said:
And, i have not said that it can't be done, by no means - i just said the current game design REQUIRES a fixed procedure:

State 1) <nothing equipped>
State 2) Tool/weapon equipped
State 3) Tool/weapon fired (reload lock)

Normal use would oscillate between State 2 and 3, but you can reach state 1 ONLY from state 2 - throwing the tool/weapon would jump from state 3 to state 1 - this is not possible in the current game design.

Even with a workaround (like an invisible throwing tool) Grenades would require FUNDAMENTAL changes to the game design. (i.e. SIB on STACKABLES) - and seriously, i'd love to see grenades, but i'm afraid they will break something vital while adjusting the basic systems to make this possible...
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How do you KNOW that everything that can be used as a weapon "REQUIRES" a tool which incurs decay? :scratch2:

Do you know for a fact that a weapon absolutely cannot be a stackable item?... let's make an example...

Let's use swords (a weapon that operates on decay alone, with no ammo)...
Are you 100% positive swords could not be made stackable? I know they aren't stackable now, but would you say without a "FUNDAMENTAL change to the game design" (as you put it), swords simply cannot be made stackable?! I don't believe that!... I believe it could be very simple to make (L) swords stackable, I see no reason why it couldn't be made so!...

Let's say they give (L) swords a 1 use TT value, and make them stackable... there's your grenade system!
Throwing it is irrelevant, that's an animation, an illusion!

I really don't think it's as hard to implement as you try to make it sound! I think there are at least half a dozen different ways to make grenades that work just fine within the current systems that are in place (between the designs of mining finders/amps and current weapons with & without ammo)... in fact I know there is! You know how I know?!... BECAUSE THERE'S ALREADY A GRENADE LAUNCHER!!! Whoooah, hard to imagine taking the launcher out of the picture and just throwing the grenades, that would be impossible, right?

it seems to me like you just don't want hand grenades, and are trying to convince everyone it can't be done... or that maybe it can be done, but only after a major change to the weapons system, one that will drastically alter all of the hunting and PK activities!

I don't buy it! I think it's easier than you think, and I think you have some misconceptions about what the game mechanics are/aren't capable of! And I especially don't think you are right in everything you claim to know about how the loot systems work (especially after your comment about how firing your Kismet laser decays it) :wise:
 
wizzszz said:
i've been wondering about QUAD guns only - and what the heck got this to do with this thread?

Equipping a gun/item means the server knows what he got to decay when the user pulls the trigger - if nothing is equipped, you can't calculalte the decay... as i said earlier, if you want to subtract zero from something, there HAS to be something you can subtract from, even if its only zero - this is still a mathematical operation the server will do (the server is a bit stupid, you know, he doesn't notice that there is nothing to subtract) - nothing equipped means -0 from an invalid gun/item...
Click to expand...

I suggest reading post 13 & 14.. you know the part where you said it's REQUIRED to decay the weapon.
If MA can make a MS gun that can be used to hunt & not decay the gun (balance by using more ammo), I still don't see why this can't be done with a NON-DECAYING invisible glove (wich is standard equiped when you press the unequip button) & a grenade (existing out of XXX explosive ammo)
 
Tycoon said:
How do you KNOW that everything that can be used as a weapon "REQUIRES" a tool which incurs decay? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

There is a simple reason - because on equipping a tool/weapon the server loads the stats (ALL the stats, like ammo consumption, SIB, and many more)
The weapon/tool stats in turn are TIED TO AN ITEM.

Not that i haven't said that a couple of times already... *sigh*


Tycoon said:
Do you know for a fact that a weapon absolutely cannot be a stackable item?... let's make an example...

Let's use swords (a weapon that operates on decay alone, with no ammo)...
Are you 100% positive swords could not be made stackable?
Click to expand...

I haven't said that it cannot be changed this way... just that it is not supported the way the system works NOW.

You have to change a lot of the core systems to make it possible, i.e. the complete layout of the database, where only ITEMS have STATS - and STACKABLES do NOT.

And that's only a small change - have you ever wondered why we need to equip a weapon before we can fire and the system INSISTS on this? Well, that is why (and: i can prove that it works like this - but seriously, not to someone who hasn't even understood the state example)


Tycoon said:
I know they aren't stackable now, but would you say without a "FUNDAMENTAL change to the game design" (as you put it), swords simply cannot be made stackable?! I don't believe that!... I believe it could be very simple to make (L) swords stackable, I see no reason why it couldn't be made so!...
Click to expand...

What you BELIEVE is up to you, but do not bother me with your irrational thoughts... ;)


You are mixing up two things here - combining the TT of two half-used swords is one thing (just add the TT of sword A to sword B, then remove sword A)

This doesn't really make them stackables, as they still have all these nice properties... and it won't solve our little problem here...

Tycoon said:
Let's say they give (L) swords a 1 use TT value, and make them stackable... there's your grenade system!
Throwing it is irrelevant, that's an animation, an illusion!
Click to expand...

... because an EMPTY sword is STILL EQUIPPED - a grenade you've thrown leaves your avatar with empty hands.

Admit it: You haven't read my posts, not at all, or at least not the one where i explain the states.

Tycoon said:
I really don't think it's as hard to implement as you try to make it sound! I think there are at least half a dozen different ways to make grenades that work just fine within the current systems that are in place (between the designs of mining finders/amps and current weapons with & without ammo)... in fact I know there is! You know how I know?!... BECAUSE THERE'S ALREADY A GRENADE LAUNCHER!!! Whoooah, hard to imagine taking the launcher out of the picture and just throwing the grenades, that would be impossible, right?
Click to expand...

Now you're getting silly - we've been there before, and a launcher is a weapon (or am i mistaken there?).

If you chose to use an invisible launcher, there must still be a tool that "carries" the SIB and HA/CHA, damage stats and so on - how could an invisible launcher have SIB?

Why can't you people get it - we have PROFESSIONS, and WEAPONS that RELY on them.

How are you going to calculate hitrate and damage when you have no weapon, just bare hands?


Tycoon said:
it seems to me like you just don't want hand grenades, and are trying to convince everyone it can't be done... or that maybe it can be done, but only after a major change to the weapons system, one that will drastically alter all of the hunting and PK activities!
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:D

Seriously, Mr. Hobby-psychologist... i'd love to see grenades - and that's why i wondered long ago why MA came up with those launchers... it simply HAD to had a reason. And once you know why, it is all completely logical...

And really, i'd even fly to whichever low-wage country MA let's their stuff code in (wasn't it mexican?) and tell them how to do things - but for sure not unpaid.

Tycoon said:
I don't buy it! I think it's easier than you think, and I think you have some misconceptions about what the game mechanics are/aren't capable of!
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Buy whatever you like, you've got an EXCELLENT, very LONG explanation why it is "not as easy as you folks may think" - if you can't understand it, well, that's not my problem.
(And i own a quad, but no kismet, just fyi - not going to space until MA fixes all the bugs there...)


Tycoon said:
And I especially don't think you are right in everything you claim to know about how the loot systems work
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FFS, i DID NOT SAY A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE LOOT SYSTEEEEEEM!!!!!!
 
das said:
I suggest reading post 13 & 14.. you know the part where you said it's REQUIRED to decay the weapon.
If MA can make a MS gun that can be used to hunt & not decay the gun (balance by using more ammo), I still don't see why this can't be done with a NON-DECAYING invisible glove (wich is standard equiped when you press the unequip button) & a grenade (existing out of XXX explosive ammo)
Click to expand...

I have explained this in detail in pretty much every post now - if you STILL dont get it... well, it think i have really TRIED to explain it - SEVERAL TIMES, i've done my part, sufficiently.

(Feel free to quote where i said "it is impossible" - good luck finding such a line...)



If you are just too blind, too stubborn, too drunk, too drugged, too young, too old, too illiterate, too whatever... that's YOUR problem. I rest my case, it feels like i'm just casting pearls before swine. One can't teach mice how to fly...

It is of course (theoretically) possible that the system is completely illogical and violates everything a coder learns in his first lesson, even defeats the laws of physics and laughs in the face of boolean algebra and doesn't work like i said above...

If you want to believe that go see a priest - but don't pretend you want a factual debate and waste my time with something that totally lacks substance.
 
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