accuracy enh

calemus

Old
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Posts
69
so ive got this tier 5 weap

while thats my used weap ill make an example out of a maxed sib
if i add 1, 5, or anything in between, the crit lvl always equals a fraction value of only 1

10/10 is a chance of 1
if i devide the chances into 20/20
it is still just a chance of 1

so, why is there even such a thing as a crit enhancer if it never makes any differance?
 
The way it looks is different than the way it actually is. It's current out of the max, not current divided by the max.

So normally you have a critical hit ability of 10, now with 5 accuracy enhancers its a critical hit ability of 20..
 
with no enhancers on it you will have, lets say 2% of youre hit's would be crits, so with 5 enhancers it doubles, so you would have about 4% of your hits would be a crit.
so on 100 shots you would have about 2 crits with no enhancers, and about 4 crits with the 5 enhancers.
 
with no enhancers on it you will have, lets say 2% of youre hit's would be crits, so with 5 enhancers it doubles, so you would have about 4% of your hits would be a crit.
so on 100 shots you would have about 2 crits with no enhancers, and about 4 crits with the 5 enhancers.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I did a short test recently, when I bought an L gun with one accuracy enhancer on it. I got a couple of thousand shots out of it, crit rate was 2.4% compared to the normal 2.0%.
 
Yeah, I think that's right.

I did a short test recently, when I bought an L gun with one accuracy enhancer on it. I got a couple of thousand shots out of it, crit rate was 2.4% compared to the normal 2.0%.

yeah the 2% is about average. some + and some - :cool:

so it's up to calemus to do the math, if it's worth using them with break rate and MU.
 
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I know there are other threads about this but this is the most recent. I wanted to evaluate whether Accuracy Enhancers increase my economy (something that has been suggested before), and did a long break test to find that value. I thought i'd share my results.

I put 141 accuracy enhancers I on my imk2. They lasted for 129,400 shots, the vast majority unamped. That's an average of 918 shots per enhancer, quite a bit lower than I expected of the accuracy enhancers from what I had read and heard.

Doing the math, and assuming the 0.4% additional crits per enhancer is correct:
3.67 additional crits are generated per enhancer
each crit generated is approximately equivalent to 1.25 extra shots (a crit is 100% damage + random damage between min and max, or on average 0.75 max damage on a maxed weapon)

A shot with unamped imk2 is 15.255 pecs, so each enhancer generates 0.7 PEDs worth of extra damage.

The enhancers have a tt of 0.4 PEDs, so they become "economical" at or below 175% (0.7 PEDs) in this specific case, ignoring the tiny increasing in dps as negligible.

They seem to go for around 200% and my experiences manufacturing them shows I can't do better than that, at least not without a maxed BP. =>

No more accuracy enhancers for me on unamped imk2. I need to repeat test with amp (not in a hurry to manufacture more of these though with current success rate, lol). If the break rate remains the same with an amp, they would be economical at 200%. MA has said the gun damage affects the break rate, although many dispute that, so it's not obvious that the break rate would remain the same with an amp. :)

Remember, YMMV!
 
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I sell mine for 175%

PA Mall shop 11 on floor 1, or Celeste North 6.
 
There was this, recently:

Unfortunately it seems that the support representative has provided inaccurate information in the response to this support case.

I can confirm that the consumption rate of enhancers of all types is directly related to the magnitude of the benefit received.

As an example, the consumption rate of damage enhancers attached to weapons is primarily determined by the amount of additional damage created by the attached enhancers.

I will inform the support team about this so that correct information is provided in the future and we apologise for the miscommunication.

Emphasis mine.

I did a test on the number crits using accuracy enhancers, when they were new, on a Kesmic Slo (I think) and the increase was as expected. The rate of breakage is harder to measure - just because it takes so many attempts to even out - but taking Bjorn's statement at face value, it would be interest to compare an Opallo with IMk2 (for example) to see what kind of range of difference that is.

I did like hearing that very much, though. I found the idea that breakage would be the same across all weapons, for example, to make enhancers useless on anything but uber items, which seems pointless. This variable consumption makes it reasonable to use enhancers in a much wider variety of situations, which is a good thing.

:beerchug:
Miles
 
There was this, recently:



Emphasis mine.

I did a test on the number crits using accuracy enhancers, when they were new, on a Kesmic Slo (I think) and the increase was as expected. The rate of breakage is harder to measure - just because it takes so many attempts to even out - but taking Bjorn's statement at face value, it would be interest to compare an Opallo with IMk2 (for example) to see what kind of range of difference that is.

I did like hearing that very much, though. I found the idea that breakage would be the same across all weapons, for example, to make enhancers useless on anything but uber items, which seems pointless. This variable consumption makes it reasonable to use enhancers in a much wider variety of situations, which is a good thing.

:beerchug:
Miles

There is really no need to test this since it was already stated by Bjorn that the magnitude of the increase in item determines if it breaks faster or not..

~Danimal
 
Thanks Miles, that's the comment from support I was referring to.

"Directly related" does not necessarily mean directly proportional. Until we have numbers from weapons of different magnitude and amped/unamped to compare, we really can't generalize.
 
Thanks Miles, that's the comment from support I was referring to.

"Directly related" does not necessarily mean directly proportional. Until we have numbers from weapons of different magnitude and amped/unamped to compare, we really can't generalize.

Agreed. It does give us an area to test though, so it should be possible to determine - but it will require some big data sets to do so. Perhaps some of our math experts (not me, lol) can determine how many enhancers per weapon it will take to have some reasonable level of confidence. Your experience with the IMk2 is certainly a start.

The reason I suggested a small gun like Opalo vrs. the IMk2 is that it should be easiest to confirm that the rate really is different because of the larger expected difference. If we determine that as a baseline, plugging in intermediate weapons would let us then figure the out the nature of relationship in the benefit/breakage ratio.

I doubt it is a straight line - almost nothing in EU is.
:beerchug:
Miles
 
There is really no need to test this since it was already stated by Bjorn that the magnitude of the increase in item determines if it breaks faster or not..

~Danimal

Having used these on fast small-damage weapons (power claws), I find what Bjorn said very hard to believe, it was certainly not my experience.
 
The reason I suggested a small gun like Opalo vrs. the IMk2 is that it should be easiest to confirm that the rate really is different because of the larger expected difference. If we determine that as a baseline, plugging in intermediate weapons would let us then figure the out the nature of relationship in the benefit/breakage ratio.

Olaplo vs Riker UL1 (UL) would work too, its almost exactly 3x difference in damage. LR48 is almost exactly 10x the opalo damage.

Opalo -> UL1 -> Montgomery anabolic -> lr48 would be 1x -> 3x -> 6x -> 10x which should give readibly visible differences.
 
Nvm, this was based on a change that was reverted.

I just noticed this in another, older thread:

It was proven earlier Crits now do 2x Dmg instead of Dmg+Max Dmg.

So yes, they have been nerfed.

(can't find the thread where it was discussed)

If that is true, my analysis is off. Each extra crit generated is only worth 1 shot, not 1.25. That gives an enhancer a value of 56 pecs, making the break-even price 140% instead of 175% for the case of unamped imk2.

I can't verify the assertion above because my finisher crits convolve my data. Can anyone else do so?

PS If so, dammit, MA, why must you always nerf? A built-in 175% markup does seem a bit odd... (as in, too good to be true?)
 
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Come again?

I just noticed this in another, older thread:


If that is true, my analysis is off. Each extra crit generated is only worth 1 shot, not 1.25. That gives an enhancer a value of 56 pecs, making the break-even price 140% instead of 175% for the case of unamped imk2.

I can't verify the assertion above because my finisher crits convolve my data. Can anyone else do so?

PS If so, dammit, MA, why must you always nerf? A built-in 175% markup does seem a bit odd... (as in, too good to be true?)

My numbers don't support the rumored nerf. Anyone else? You can check this by seeing if you have any crits less than 1.5 times your max weapon damage.
 
Come again?



My numbers don't support the rumored nerf. Anyone else? You can check this by seeing if you have any crits less than 1.5 times your max weapon damage.

See the rest of the thread you quoted from. The change to crits was reversed quite quickly back to the old system, damage+max.
 
See the rest of the thread you quoted from. The change to crits was reversed quite quickly back to the old system, damage+max.

Ah, thanks.

That was an unexpected twist in that discussion in the last few posts. How odd to change it and then change it back so quickly...

Okay, so initial analysis is the correct one.
 
Let me ask a question that has come up.

Based on the numbers given here (0.4% increase in crit rate per enhancer), i have been using a crit rate formula that agrees with that (eq1) (crit rate = 0.002*CHA). However, in reviewing the formula that entropedia uses for effective damage, i found that it uses (eq2) crit rate = 0.01 + 0.001*CHA (1% crits at CHA 0, 2% when maxed), which i remember seeing thrown around in the past, and which has the eminently useful feature of allowing crit hits for noobs, something that eq1 does not do. This begs the question: Does crit rate scale with 0.001*CHA or 0.002*CHA? Or perhaps it scales differently above 10?

The answer to that question is important: if the more likely (eq2) formula is correct and the estimates by others that enhancer brings 0.4% increase in crits wrong (double the actual value), my analysis earlier is overly optimistic in assuming 0.7 PEDs bonus damage per enhancer. The actual figure would be 0.35 PEDs bonus damage, or less than the tt of an enhancer. This would make accuracy enhancers, like other enhancers, always decrease economy.

Has anyone measured their crits using enhancers for a long period of time on a maxed weapon?
 
The sum total of my Accuracy Enhancer Testing in one quick post:

It's small sample from early 2010. All figures from my logs except attempts, which were calculated from decay.

Kesmic Slo (234.61ped worth) with Accuracy Enhancers I, II, & III for 16/16 CHA)
3882 attempts
3393 regular hits
98 critical hits
3491 total hits

Normal Hit Rate: 87.40%
Combined Hit Rate: 89.92%
Crit Rate 2.52% (of attempts)
Crit Rate 2.81% (of hits)

:beerchug:
Miles
 
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Based on the numbers given here (0.4% increase in crit rate per enhancer), i have been using a crit rate formula that agrees with that (eq1) (crit rate = 0.002*CHA). However, in reviewing the formula that entropedia uses for effective damage, i found that it uses (eq2) crit rate = 0.01 + 0.001*CHA (1% crits at CHA 0, 2% when maxed), which i remember seeing thrown around in the past, and which has the eminently useful feature of allowing crit hits for noobs, something that eq1 does not do. This begs the question: Does crit rate scale with 0.001*CHA or 0.002*CHA? Or perhaps it scales differently above 10?

Has anyone measured their crits using enhancers for a long period of time on a maxed weapon?

I had pretty much exactly 2.4% maxed shots being crits on the short test I did with one enhancer until it broke. It lasted about 2000 shots. Miles' results are quite different though so we need more data.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it scale differently beyond 10, same happened with armour durability beyond 10k.
 
I've reviewed the data in the hit rate thread and i don't think there's any way to reconcile that data with the formula on entropedia. It appears that, at least from 6-10 CHA, the crit rate is consistent with eq1 and each CHA point is worth 0.2% crit rate. If someone with a HA < 5 has data on their hits, misses and crits, it could help us verify that.

It appears things might be more complicated above 10 CHA, so please share your results with Accuracy Enhancers on maxed or almost maxed weapons.
 
Test 1 (t1 break rate, unamped imk2) and estimated economy:
I put 141 accuracy enhancers I on my imk2. They lasted for 129,400 shots, the vast majority unamped. That's an average of 918 shots per enhancer, quite a bit lower than I expected of the accuracy enhancers from what I had read and heard.

Doing the math, and assuming the 0.4% additional crits per enhancer is correct:
3.67 additional crits are generated per enhancer
each crit generated is approximately equivalent to 1.25 extra shots (a crit is 100% damage + random damage between min and max, or on average 0.75 max damage on a maxed weapon)

A shot with unamped imk2 is 15.255 pecs, so each enhancer generates 0.7 PEDs worth of extra damage.

The enhancers have a tt of 0.4 PEDs, so they become "economical" at or below 175% (0.7 PEDs) in this specific case, ignoring the tiny increasing in dps as negligible.

I need to repeat test with amp (not in a hurry to manufacture more of these though with current success rate, lol). If the break rate remains the same with an amp, they would be economical at 200%. MA has said the gun damage affects the break rate, although many dispute that, so it's not obvious that the break rate would remain the same with an amp. :)

Test 2 (t1 and t2 break rate, amped imk2; enh. effect on crit rate):

Out of a total of 28607 attacks, 24809 were hits (536 or 0.021605 crits) and 3798 were misses, for a total hit rate of 0.867235
33 t1 and 37 t2 enhancers were used, for a total tt cost of 28 PEDs.

Break rate*
t1: 867
t2: 773

I established that the crit rate without enhancers with my pro standing (6.4 HA, 8 CHA) was 1.6%, as is also expected by the formula crit rate = CHA*0.02. Two enhancers increases CHA by 40%, to 11.2. By the same crit rate formula, the expected crit rate with two enhancers is 2.24%. This is higher than the measured outcome with the enhancers of 2.16%. With just this one result I don't know if that is a variance or a typical result.*

The enhancers generated 139 more criticals than would have been expected without enhancers. At approximately 19.6 pecs/amped shot and 1.25 equivalent shots per crit, those criticals are worth 34.05 PEDs in additional damage. The breakeven markup on these enhancers is %122, below market value. That this number is lower than in my initial estimate is unsurprising because the benefit of enhancers is reduced when CHA is not maxed.

*I don't consider these numbers to be very reliable because of the relatively small number of enhancers. I'll have one nearly identical test to compare it with shortly, and will update this post.
 
ma needs to sell tier up options

looks like my gun is now stuck at 5.7
cycled more ped through it since that was obtained than i have in the past 3 months

ma needs to sell tier up options .1 tier bumps bought with ped
ftw
 
As I had a high tiers Isis LR41(L), I put in 5 accuracy enhancers and went to hunt eviscerators - the restults as shown by tracker client are:

hits: 1688
misses: 181
critical hits: 62

this gives us:

hit rate : 90.31%
crit % out of hits: 3.67%
crit % out of shots: 3.3%

The crit rate fluctuates a lot though. I have enough decay on the gun for a repeat test.
 
remontoire

remontoire
u said tracker counted % values of hits misses crits and stuff???
how what where on tracker is that?
i cant find it?
 
remontoire
u said tracker counted % values of hits misses crits and stuff???
how what where on tracker is that?
i cant find it?

Open tracker client, there is a tab called "combat log" - there you have dropdowns and "fill list" buttons for weapons and amps. Click both, then select your weapon and amp (for some reason, it also lists other attachments under amps) from teh drop downs. It should now show you various statistics in near real time.
 
Second test :
total hits: 1686
total misses : 183
crits: 71
hit rate : 90.20%

crits to hits: 4.211 %
crits to shots: 3.789 %

Total for two cha 20/20 hunts:

hits: 3374
misses: 364
crits: 133

crits to hits: 3.941 %
crits to shots: 3.558 %

both hunts had 3 enhancers breaking, so ~630 shots / enhancer.

The gun has 3% usable remaining, so there isn't much more testing that i can do for now.
 
Break rate
Summary of all my break rate tests to date:
141 accu. I enhancers on unamped imk2 (72 dmg/shot) lasted 129.400 shots: 918 shots/enh
33 accu. I & 37 accu. II enh. on amped imk2 (92 dmg/shot) lasted 28796 attacks or 24809 hits: 872, 778
30 accu. I & 35 accu. II enh. on amped imk2 (92 dmg/shot) lasted 27558 attacks or 23850 hits: 936, 802

It appears thus far that the break rate is not affected by amping the weapon. Interestingly, there may be a higher break rate with higher level enhancers though.

Effect on crit rate

Test one with two enhancers had a crit rate of 2.16%, while the new test two repeating the two enhancer test had a really high crit rate of 2.45% (584 out of 23850 hits, and i could feel it: you know how it gets sometimes so that you get two or three crits in a row on a regular basis?). The expected crit rate by the hypothetical formula is 2.24%, and that's plausible with these results but not in any way proven.
 
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