"Gambling" : U.S.A. Legal Definition

Colbey Kal

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game of chance. A game of whose outcome is determined by luck rather than skill. Cf GAMING DEVICE
"Games of chance do not cease to be such merely because they call for the exercise of skill by the players, nor do games of skill cease to be so because at times . . . their result is determined by some unforeseen accident, usually called 'luck.' According to some cases, the test of the character of the game is not whether it contains an element of chance or an element of skill, but which of these is the dominating element that determines the result of the game. . . . And it has been said that 'it is character of the game, and not the skill or want of skill of the player,' which determines whether a game is one of chance or skill."
38 Am. Jur. 2nd Gambling § 4, at 109-10 (1968)
From Black's Law Dictionary 8th edition, p. 701

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It seems to me, the ability to receive different MU based on a player's choices makes EU a 'game of skill.' I am not a lawyer, but it at least gives alot of wriggle room.
 
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From Black's Law Dictionary 8th edition, p. 701

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It seems to me, the ability to receive different MU based a player's choices makes EU a 'game of skill.' I am not a lawyer, but it at least gives alot of wriggle room.

If you are worried about EU being shut down in the USA don't...

p.s.
there are skills and things that are supposed to play a role in loot as well... which leaves less to chance... along with choice players make... this is is why entropia is not gambling :)
 
I'm sorry, but not knowing the mechanics of the game completely leaves it up to chance. Almost every action you make in game is blind. MindArk has left too much information in the dark. You put money, just like any game of chance and your decision on what to do with that money is based on your knowledge of the game. For real, you have to go to Entropedia to actually get the 'decay' for an item instead of relying on the "Good" "Average" "Bad" that they list in game. Thank the players for putting that together.

EU can be compared side by side to countless numbers of gambling games, poker, craps, roulette, slots, etc, etc. The fact that it resides in a foreign country with different laws is the only reason it has not been shut down. Walk into your local casino, they HAVE to explain how games work to you, its the law. How can EU not and still call themselves a game of skill? Why have people hit uber hofs on their 3rd ever mining drop? Why do uber players hit uber hofs on noob creatures and the rest can not? It's the wizard of OZ and MA is sitting behind the curtain tinkering around while we all sit here watching the smoke and colours.
 
MindArk has left too much information in the dark. You put money, just like any game of chance and your decision on what to do with that money is based on your knowledge of the game. For real, you have to go to Entropedia to actually get the 'decay' for an item instead of relying on the "Good" "Average" "Bad" that they list in game. T

9er9er,

The point that MindArk doesn't make it easy to gain knowledge actually increases the value of that knowledge. Here's how I interpret the given definition: When it is possible to get enough skill (i.e., real world ability) and/or knowledge for an individual to be expected to succeed in the long term, the game is not a "game of chance." It is irrelevant if the majority of participants lack that skill, as long as it is reasonable to think that some people have it.

I really posted this definition in response to one of Jimmy B's posts where he uses an example of a 10K ped click. He says that due to the volatility ("riskiness") of the action it must be 'gambling.' This is one of the very few times I've disagreed with a statement he's made. I actually do not consider the crafter in question to be "gambling" if the clicker actually (and correctly) saw the click as a 'positive value play' while having 1) knowledge of the odds of success/failure 2) the knowledge of the expected payouts/costs, and 3) the ability & intent to repeat the action through enough repetitions to achieve the long-run expected results. If the above conditions are true, the player has a lot more skill (knowledge) than I do, which should lead to his long-term success, and seems to be am example strong enough to remove EU from the "game of chance" category.

Some people focus on how "random" EU is, considering it is a program created by humans. I really don't see how the "truly" random aspect of a RNG makes a difference. As long as the long-run results can be predicted to a useful approximation, it allows for effective statistical models. And remember; in business terms (in the the real world), "Short Term" generally refers to events that are expected to happen in the next one year; so even what many players consider to be huge volatility in day-to-day hunting / mining / ect isn't a significant factor in determining long-run results.
 
I'm not an attorney, but I've been told in layman's terms that for something to qualify as gambling, it must fulfill three benchmarks:

1) Pay to play
2) Game of chance
3) Chance to win or lose

I'm a bit of a noob, but it kinda seems to me that a concrete answer can't be given for any of the above regarding EU.

Mick
 
I'm sorry, but not knowing the mechanics of the game completely leaves it up to chance. Almost every action you make in game is blind. MindArk has left too much information in the dark. You put money, just like any game of chance and your decision on what to do with that money is based on your knowledge of the game. For real, you have to go to Entropedia to actually get the 'decay' for an item instead of relying on the "Good" "Average" "Bad" that they list in game. Thank the players for putting that together.

EU can be compared side by side to countless numbers of gambling games, poker, craps, roulette, slots, etc, etc. The fact that it resides in a foreign country with different laws is the only reason it has not been shut down. Walk into your local casino, they HAVE to explain how games work to you, its the law. How can EU not and still call themselves a game of skill? Why have people hit uber hofs on their 3rd ever mining drop? Why do uber players hit uber hofs on noob creatures and the rest can not? It's the wizard of OZ and MA is sitting behind the curtain tinkering around while we all sit here watching the smoke and colours.


I think you have to take the aspect of ava development into consideration as well, not just the tt value of your loot/return.

Engaging in activities invariably skills your ava, and this is clearly an aspect which distinguishes EU from games like poker or roulette.
 
I'm not an attorney, but I've been told in layman's terms that for something to qualify as gambling, it must fulfill three benchmarks:

1) Pay to play
2) Game of chance
3) Chance to win or lose

I'm a bit of a noob, but it kinda seems to me that a concrete answer can't be given for any of the above regarding EU.

Mick

What you're saying looks right. The issue is the actual definition of 2) "Game of Chance."

I gave the definition for that in post #1. It looks like you gave an abbreviated definition for a "gambling device" which according to Black's is:
Black's said:
gambling device. Any thing, such as cards, dice, or an electronic or mechanical contrivance, that allows a person to play a game of chance in which money may be won or lost. - Gambling devices are regulated by law, and the use or possession of a gambling device can be illegal. Also termed gaming device

In comparison to "game of chance" there is also a definition of "game of skill":

Black's said:
game of skill.

A game in which the outcome is determined by a player's superior knowledge or ability, not chance. (Cases: gaming C==>6. )

The whole "gambling" questions seems to boil down to whether EU would be viewed as either a "game of chance" or a "game of skill." When people say that the Swedish gaming authorities did not classify EU as gambling many players presume that it should be interpreted as there is nothing "random" about EU. In contrast, I think it means that the player's knowledge / skill is the determining factor of their long-term success or failure.

It seems to me that people who chase HoFs would probably consider the game to be all about chance. People that follow the MU (The crafter previously mentioned) probably consider the game all about skill.
 
EU is not gambling, because it is a simulation of
Entropy :-
the thermodynamic property toward equilibrium/average/homogenization/dissipation: hotter, more dynamic areas of a system lose heat/energy while cooler areas (e.g., space) get warmer / gain energy; molecules of a solvent or gas tend to evenly distribute; material objects wear out; organisms die; the universe is cooling down. In the observable universe, entropy - like time - runs in one direction only (it is not a reversible process).


At it's deepest core, Entropia Universe is designed to grind at you until there is nothing left. It's in the name. It is predestined, there is 0% chance of it going any other way. All the other layers are window dressing, which we are allowed to play with, and which cycle through highs and lows on the path to the inevitable null state.

Predestiny precludes luck.
 
The game system is not luck.

Players make it luck.

New player who comes in level 13 amp drops bombs > Luck they have no idea what will happen. Thus Gambling.

end of.
 
I'm not an attorney, but I've been told in layman's terms that for something to qualify as gambling, it must fulfill three benchmarks:

1) Pay to play
2) Game of chance
3) Chance to win or lose

I'm a bit of a noob, but it kinda seems to me that a concrete answer can't be given for any of the above regarding EU.

Mick

My opinion is that the loophole is 2 and 3:
2. Returns are set over the long term.
3. You only can lose, and thus it's not a "bet," it's a "fee."

Although, I would disagree that #1 is a requirement. All vegas casinos do not charge a fee if you want to play any of the slot machines or table games. Also, on poker tables in the state of California, they do collect a fee (table rentals) but are not considered gambling because there is no "house."
 
EU is not gambling, because it is a simulation of
Entropy :-
the thermodynamic property toward equilibrium/average/homogenization/dissipation: hotter, more dynamic areas of a system lose heat/energy while cooler areas (e.g., space) get warmer / gain energy; molecules of a solvent or gas tend to evenly distribute; material objects wear out; organisms die; the universe is cooling down. In the observable universe, entropy - like time - runs in one direction only (it is not a reversible process).


At it's deepest core, Entropia Universe is designed to grind at you until there is nothing left. It's in the name. It is predestined, there is 0% chance of it going any other way. All the other layers are window dressing, which we are allowed to play with, and which cycle through highs and lows on the path to the inevitable null state.

Predestiny precludes luck.


So Entropia is modelled on Entropy - just like the real universe! So everyone should give up on real life as there is no way to get ahead? Mass suicides on the cards? Dont think so.
 
So Entropia is modelled on Entropy - just like the real universe! So everyone should give up on real life as there is no way to get ahead? Mass suicides on the cards? Dont think so.
In the extension, I think that's exactly what the "pirates" are, and therefore MindArk itself is, saying. "Leave the system, or be prepared to be looted if you want to visit anything else". MA's board cheers, until... the suicides start.

So, MA not only condones but actually suggest mass suicide.

Imagine that headline on Slashdot (ideas below). :)

"Real Cash Economy virtual gambling environment promotes mass suicide"
"JWT found to be devil worshipper and eating human flesh"
"Mexican drug cartel found cooperating with Swedish hustler company"
"MA CEO found to be a puppet. A front"
"FoxConn is heaven compared to MindArk"

Just messing, but wouldn't that be a masterpiece of proportions MA themselves couldn't have created?

On a more serious note - US legal definitions are currently worth shit in Entropia, unless you try to sue someone (single person). MindArk the company is - legally or illegally - operating in Sweden. I have already posted some Swedish law. I don't feel like posting more.
 
So Entropia is modelled on Entropy - just like the real universe! So everyone should give up on real life as there is no way to get ahead? Mass suicides on the cards? Dont think so.

Who was discussing the futility of fighting entropy? The issue in this thread is whether we are gambling or not. I am saying we are not, because the outcome is definite.
 
Surely it's the Swedish legal definition that counts? Does the USA legal definition matter, to anyone outside USA at least?

I really posted this definition in response to one of Jimmy B's posts where he uses an example of a 10K ped click. He says that due to the volatility ("riskiness") of the action it must be 'gambling.' This is one of the very few times I've disagreed with a statement he's made. I actually do not consider the crafter in question to be "gambling" if the clicker actually (and correctly) saw the click as a 'positive value play' while having 1) knowledge of the odds of success/failure 2) the knowledge of the expected payouts/costs, and 3) the ability & intent to repeat the action through enough repetitions to achieve the long-run expected results.

We're really just disagreeing on the definition of the word there.

I would consider the situation you describe as gambling (also I include poker, sports betting (my job), financial trading, etc, in that category), but not lottery (gambling with insufficient skill-element to ever be +EV, like state lotteries, roulette, blackjack without counting, etc).

Whilst I agree the accumulation of a sufficiently large number of +EV bets can reach the point where recording an overall loss is essentially statistically impossible, each individual bet is still a gamble. The sum of my gambles may carry negligible risk for me, but from a language perspective I can't see how performing lots of gambles is not performing the act of "gambling".

And even if you wish to define it in terms of your long-term return only, the result of 10000 bets with +10% edge will have less variance around +10% than 1000 bets would, but will have a larger absolute variance (e.g. standard deviation of (heads - tails) in N coin flips is 0.5*sqrt(N) which increases with N, despite the fact that the relative difference is decreasing with N). So there is no certainty in absolute return, even with a large number of bets. So I'd still be inclined to call it gambling.

It is also possible to gamble with +EV, and yet be statistically certain to end up broke in the long-run. (if your individual bet stakes are too large compared with your bankroll, cf. Kelly Criterion)
 
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Surely it's the Swedish legal definition that counts? Does the USA legal definition matter, to anyone outside USA at least?

You are obviously right since it was Swedish authorities that reviewed EU; but, the definition still has some relevance. I personally cannot speak Swedish (I applaud all multilingual people, I am horrible at foreign languages) so I looked up the definition in the American version. What was interesting was that a defining characteristic was the relevance of skill vs. randomness. In common usage that difference is rarely highlighted. I doubt if google translate would catch it.

We're really just disagreeing on the definition of the word there.

Exactly :) That's why I posted the definitions, not the laws. It gives a common starting point for discussion.
I would consider the situation you describe as gambling . . . there is no certainty in absolute return, even with a large number of bets. So I'd still be inclined to call it gambling.

This is where the first definition gives light. A lack of certainty in return isn't the defining characteristic, or even required. The character of the game is whether the defining element of success is luck vs skill. True, this may not be the same for the Swedish authorities. But if it is similar, (and if it isn't anything could be considered a gamble) it would give a valid reason for their results - without requiring the individual loot results to be predictable (non-RNG based).

It is also possible to gamble with +EV, and yet be statistically certain to end up broke in the long-run. (if your individual bet stakes are too large compared with your bankroll, cf. Kelly Criterion)
True, and that would imply a lack of skill in choosing what actions to do.

In the end, I'm not trying to say that no people 'gamble' in EU, as much as understand why EU was not classified as gambling, and what that would imply (or not imply) about the game's systems.
 
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Ah, good ol' Blacks's Law Dictionary... :)

Thanks for posting this.
 
So Entropia is modelled on Entropy - just like the real universe! So everyone should give up on real life as there is no way to get ahead? Mass suicides on the cards? Dont think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropion
Entropion is a medical condition in which the eyelid (usually the lower lid) folds inward. It is very uncomfortable, as the eyelashes constantly rub against the cornea.
Background-digital-studios.png
 
You are obviously right since it was Swedish authorities that reviewed EU; but, the definition still has some relevance. I personally cannot speak Swedish (I applaud all multilingual people, I am horrible at foreign languages) so I looked up the definition in the American version. What was interesting was that a defining characteristic was the relevance of skill vs. randomness. In common usage that difference is rarely highlighted. I doubt if google translate would catch it.

Exactly :) That's why I posted the definitions, not the laws. It gives a common starting point for discussion.

This is where the first definition gives light. A lack of certainty in return isn't the defining characteristic, or even required. The character of the game is whether the defining element of success is luck vs skill. True, this may not be the same for the Swedish authorities. But if it is similar, (and if it isn't anything could be considered a gamble) it would give a valid reason for their results - without requiring the individual loot results to be predictable (non-RNG based).

True, and that would imply a lack of skill in choosing what actions to do.

In the end, I'm not trying to say that no people 'gamble' in EU, as much as understand why EU was not classified as gambling, and what that would imply (or not imply) about the game's systems.

All fair points. My intention was just to explain why I would define the situation you mentioned with the BP as gambling. I think we're agreed in isolation it would be a gamble. I thus say each time such a gamble is performed, we are gambling.

But that's just how I use the word, the Swedish legal definition is obviously what really counts. With regard to your comment about not being able to speak Swedish, tamlin posted the key Swedish document in the wave theory thread. Google Translate turns it into pretty legible English, if you're using Chrome it'll prompt to translate it as soon as you open the page. Although of course some nuances of meaning might be lost in the cybertranslation.

To many of us, the 3 "activities" in EU are obvious gambling. Pure and simple. The instances of proof are overwhelming. EU wouldn't fall under the casino law in Sweden, but under the law regarding lottery (swe: lotteri) (<-- CLICKY), and that phucker isn't so clear-cutting as one would hope for. In fact, EU may even be such kind of money gambling that isn't even covered by Swedish law.
 
It seems to me that people who chase HoFs would probably consider the game to be all about chance. People that follow the MU (The crafter previously mentioned) probably consider the game all about skill.

Certainly the looting system must be scrutinized. If I sat at a slot machine for an hour and didn't play, my return would be 100%.

Something about the looting system involves skill to a point that it passes the gambling test.

edit: regarding poker and the US laws, there's clearly cases where the enforcement doesn't strictly follow the definitions either. It is a game of skill by any measure, yet illegal in the US. Being a conservative country, the US often goes by the old "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" type of enforcement.

Poker: looks like gambling, therefore illegal
EU: doesn't look like gambling, therefore legal
 
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