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Wish: Change the way we transfer skills

BruuD

BruuD

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I have brought it up before, but as it seems MA is actually listening to suggestions lately, I'm going to bring it up again ;)
I really think the method for transferring skills should be changed / improved.

At the moment it's just out of proportional expensive to transfer skills.
Let's say I have a net value of 20k ped, then I need to spend 60k ped on ESI to transfer those skills, not even mentioning the 10% that you lose.
60k ped going to waste... that seems just unacceptable to me.
I don't necessarily say that skill transfer has to be free, but there must be better ways.

Maybe there should be skill containers available from TT for free and charge a just the TT value (percentage over the TT value of skills) of the extracted skills, during the extraction process.
Add that TT value to the lootpool.
This way it still costs money, but at least it's reasonable (extracting 5000 ped TT skills still costs $500,-)

I think it will make people less resistant in investing in skills for their avatar.
I also think it might improve the skill market (read: skill value), because more people will be willing to buy skills.

What do you guys think?
 
BruuD said:
I have brought it up before, but as it seems MA is actually listening to suggestions lately, I'm going to bring it up again ;)
I really think the method for transferring skills should be changed / improved.

At the moment it's just out of proportional expensive to transfer skills.
Let's say I have a net value of 20k ped, then I need to spend 60k ped on ESI to transfer those skills, not even mentioning the 10% that you lose.
60k ped going to waste... that seems just unacceptable to me.
I don't necessarily say that skill transfer has to be free, but there must be better ways.

Maybe there should be skill containers available from TT for free and charge a just the TT value (percentage over the TT value of skills) of the extracted skills, during the extraction process.
Add that TT value to the lootpool.
This way it still costs money, but at least it's reasonable (extracting 5000 ped TT skills still costs $500,-)

I think it will make people less resistant in investing in skills for their avatar.
I also think it might improve the skill market (read: skill value), because more people will be willing to buy skills.

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

then esi will be worthless
 
as long as esis would be removed from loot, it might be doable. Of course, those that already are holding esis will now like this suggestion one bit (at least until they sell their stockpile of em first)
 
I thought the reason for the method currently in place with ESI is to deter ppl using multi accounts , or constantly changing to a new avatar , entropia is about making a character that is yourself and to strengthen bonds and relationships in the universe or be it community , I know I have read a blurb or whatever mindark have discussed this , as much as I would see switching skills etc would be a lot easier , it would only ruin whatever is left of the true singular rce MMORPG that is entropia universe
 
K_rupT said:
I thought the reason for the method currently in place with ESI is to deter ppl using multi accounts , or constantly changing to a new avatar , entropia is about making a character that is yourself and to strengthen bonds and relationships in the universe or be it community , I know I have read a mindark have discussed this , as much as I would see switching skills etc would be a lot easier , it would only ruin whatever is left of the true singular rce MMORPG that is entropia universe
Click to expand...

I think letting people pay the TT value as transfer cost would suffice in that matter.
And there can still be the 10% loss of skill value to prevent people from switching avatar.

I don't know how it is in other MMORPG, but in EU the value of someone's skills make up for such a large portion of the total avatar's value, that imo it must be made easier to sell those skills.
 
BruuD said:
MIND said:
then esi will be worthless
Click to expand...
Yes, they will.
Does that matter?
Click to expand...
It's doesn't matter for you, when you leaving or need to buy a lot of skills, but I guess it does matter for you, while you playing and looting them ;)

P.S. But I agree, what it's very expensive and worthless to transfer most skills nowadays. But just removing one of least item from loot with good markup without providing replacement - far from good solution.
 
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K_rupT said:
I thought the reason for the method currently in place with ESI is to deter ppl using multi accounts , or constantly changing to a new avatar , entropia is about making a character that is yourself and to strengthen bonds and relationships in the universe or be it community , I know I have read a blurb or whatever mindark have discussed this , as much as I would see switching skills etc would be a lot easier , it would only ruin whatever is left of the true singular rce MMORPG that is entropia universe
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I think this suggestion would help with individual avatars being the same person in long run. Response to a recent support ticket:
…
One thing I would like to share with you about the selling of avatars is that technically you can, but once you need assistance from us it will be really difficult to get it because you won’t be able to verify the ownership of the avatar since the name of the original owner will be registered.
…
Have a great weekend,
Cameron | Planet Calypso Support

---------------------
Sorry to make things a bit confusing, I mean to say that technically you can sell your avatar but we don’t allow it and it’s prohibited.
Regards,
Cameron | Planet Calypso Support
Click to expand...

In other words, folks are selling avatar id and password even though it's not technically allowed under eula/tos. Part of the reason that is happening is, I suspect, BECAUSE OF THE COST OF TRADING SKILLS... They want to leave the game but find it too expensive to do so so they just sell the id/password to someone else. If Mindark really wants one avatar per person and one person to stay with avatar in long haul, the suggestion in this wishlist thread is actually one of the best ways to head in that direction imho.

Mindark claims
Safety and security is highly prioritized and MindArk has implemented functions on several levels to ensure this. Both Planet Partners and the participants on the planets should always feel safe in their endeavors in Entropia Universe.
Click to expand...


Making this change to putting ESIs in the tt would help participants 'feel safe in their endeavors' since there would be a lower cost to chip out and a lowering of the chances that many avatars in game are who they claim to be. As the system is now, Mindark is really subtly encouraging folks that want to chip out to make trades outside of the game in exchange for handing over id info related to in game such as passwords, etc. In other words, they are doing the exact opposite of making participants 'feel safe in their endeavors' if they don't make this change.

What's sick about the situation is that since they say 'all trades are final' they are creating a very dangerous situation as it is now... the opposite of 'feeling safe' - especially since Mindark won't do anything about many scams and might ask you to just file a police report instead of a support ticket...

People are always bitching in the forums about folks that stay around a long time after they should have just chipped out and left the game. I suspect the markup on ESIs has A LOT to do with that situation... fix that by putting ESI in the TT and you might see a bunch of the whiners who are just staying around since they can't afford to chip out go bye bye... that can only be a GOOD thing in my opinion.
 
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Nikto said:
It's doesn't matter for you, when you leaving or need to buy a lot of skills, but I guess it does matter for you, while you playing and looting them ;)

P.S. But I agree, what it's very expensive and worthless to transfer most skills nowadays. But just removing one of least item from loot with good markup without providing replacement - far from good solution.
Click to expand...

So if you can choose:
Get a little extra markup every once in a while by looting an ESI that is worth something (and be honest, how big of a portion of your total loot value is that ESI value? it's very very small).
or
Have the possibility to buy new skills without throwing away 5 times the value of the actual skills every time and the skills that you earn during your hunts actually be worth something. :)
 
People might buy avatars outside of the game. get the login and ID card..

But if the original owner someday wants that account back. he will get it. and you will loose all your cash + be banned from EU for eternity.

I dont understand people who buys avatars that way ;-)
 
Price on skills would probably increase so buying skills will probably cost the same as today so the only one this will benefit is people selling out and people that are selling skills so i dont see any reason to change how it works.
I rather have the good markup esi´s in loot.

BruuD said:
So if you can choose:
Get a little extra markup every once in a while by looting an ESI that is worth something (and be honest, how big of a portion of your total loot value is that ESI value? it's very very small).
or
Have the possibility to buy new skills without throwing away 5 times the value of the actual skills every time and the skills that you earn during your hunts actually be worth something. :)
Click to expand...
 
BruuD said:
So if you can choose:
Get a little extra markup every once in a while by looting an ESI that is worth something (and be honest, how big of a portion of your total loot value is that ESI value? it's very very small).
or
Have the possibility to buy new skills without throwing away 5 times the value of the actual skills every time and the skills that you earn during your hunts actually be worth something. :)
Click to expand...
If you asking me:
I never looted ESI, since they replace them from GSI :laugh: (TT changed from 0), and before that I loot them very often.
And I also never chip in/out and actually never planned to do that.

So, I'm not the best person, from whom you could get answers on those questions :)

But a lot of peoples was happy, when they loot even small ESI (since it's equal to silent global) and IMHO removing them without proper replacement* would be equal to one more nerf.

"Proper replacement = something that have constant demand, that higher than supply and as result have good MU.
 
NoBion said:
People might buy avatars outside of the game. get the login and ID card..

But if the original owner someday wants that account back. he will get it. and you will loose all your cash + be banned from EU for eternity.

I dont understand people who buys avatars that way ;-)
Click to expand...

What they do, I think, (just guessing since I've never had first hand experience on either side of this) is buy account, deposit to buy ESI or just trade in ESI they already have, chip it out, and take all items off of it and then it's a dry account even if the owner comes back and collects it later. Also, I suspect that most original owners don't come back to collect account later because the gold card is part of the deal...
 
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mastermesh said:
What they do, I think, (just guessing since I've never had first hand experience on either side of this) is buy account, deposit to buy ESI or just trade in ESI they already have, chip it out, and take all items off of it and then it's a dry account even if the owner comes back and collects it later.
Click to expand...
But that way provide zero benefits comparing to doing all the same inside the game, but involves additional risk.
 
BruuD said:
I have brought it up before, but as it seems MA is actually listening to suggestions lately, I'm going to bring it up again ;)
I really think the method for transferring skills should be changed / improved.

At the moment it's just out of proportional expensive to transfer skills.
Let's say I have a net value of 20k ped, then I need to spend 60k ped on ESI to transfer those skills, not even mentioning the 10% that you lose.
60k ped going to waste... that seems just unacceptable to me.
I don't necessarily say that skill transfer has to be free, but there must be better ways.

Maybe there should be skill containers available from TT for free and charge a just the TT value (percentage over the TT value of skills) of the extracted skills, during the extraction process.
Add that TT value to the lootpool.
This way it still costs money, but at least it's reasonable (extracting 5000 ped TT skills still costs $500,-)

I think it will make people less resistant in investing in skills for their avatar.
I also think it might improve the skill market (read: skill value), because more people will be willing to buy skills.

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

I do agree that it is wayyy to expensive to transfer skills atm and this is only a hindrance to those that want to actually build their avatar when investing in skills. I like your suggestions and even if MA didn't want to fully change their system then they could still have esi lootable but also be available at the TT for a set price (which i don't think should be over 200%). Of course i think this markup niche in loot would need to be filled by something else that could possibly have a higher markup as well.
 
@mastermesh/nobion: Please, don't make this a discussion about selling avatars, I only want to discuss a new method for transferring skills.

toad said:
Price on skills would probably increase so buying skills will probably cost the same as today so the only one this will benefit is people selling out and people that are selling skills so i dont see any reason to change how it works.
I rather have the good markup esi´s in loot.
Click to expand...

Really?
If your actual skills increase in value, then you will be making more money with hunting because the skills you gain are actually worth.
So instead of looting an ESI every once in a while, you will be continuously gain more in the form of skill value.
I don't see how that would not be better.
 
ZippO said:
I do agree that it is wayyy to expensive to transfer skills atm and this is only a hindrance to those that want to actually build their avatar when investing in skills. I like your suggestions and even if MA didn't want to fully change their system then they could still have esi lootable but also be available at the TT for a set price (which i don't think should be over 200%). Of course i think this markup niche in loot would need to be filled by something else that could possibly have a higher markup as well.
Click to expand...

Ideally, the costs of the skill transfer (with the new system) would be added to the lootpool and thus increase the average TT return for everyone. :)
 
We can also see it the other way, and be happy that we can transfer and sell skills at all. If they did a change i would prefer they made it harder and increase the skills loose. By harder i don't mean more expansive, just more limits on extracting and buying skills.
 
Ok your skills would be worth more IF you intend to sell but if you dont the value of skills is not important but markup from loot is.

BruuD said:
Really?
If your actual skills increase in value, then you will be making more money with hunting because the skills you gain are actually worth.
So instead of looting an ESI every once in a while, you will be continuously gain more in the form of skill value.
I don't see how that would not be better.
Click to expand...
 
How about just increasing the droprate of ESI
 
The fact is, you need to learn to play without selling your ESI's. For the first few years I sold them, I got a big ESI boner and ran and sold it to the nearest person. I am very upset that I did. Especially back when they were 600%. You need to build into your cost to play the fact that 2-4% of your total return over the long run will be looted ESI's. And you need to be able to put them in storage and keep hunting as if you never looted them.

The offset in your loot return is NOT ( I truly believe this, but there is no proof) as high as having to buy 5 or 10 full ESI's at 750% on the day you decide to quit. So the only way to make it possible is to save them over the years, otherwise you are spending 50k ped on ESI's to get back 60K in skills when you quit, and it is hard for some people to get that huge amount of PED together at once. Saving looted ESI's over time, (and maybe depositing a little more over that time) is the best way to do it. Just remember, it is going to be way more expensive than you think once you are mid level and up. It cost me a FULL ESI just to drop from roughly L64 BLP Sniper to L 58 by removing rifle.

(I had a big esi, and so instead of sitting on it, I removed some of my highest skill, since it didn't affect me that much because I only use L weapons now. It freed up the peds, will save me some ped at the end when I sell, and already am back to L60 in 2 months. So you can also do it this way as you loot them, but if you want to keep all your skills until the day you quit, then SAVING the ESI's you loot is the best way to do it.)
 
Sunsout Gunsout said:
The fact is, you need to learn to play without selling your ESI's. For the first few years I sold them, I got a big ESI boner and ran and sold it to the nearest person. I am very upset that I did. Especially back when they were 600%. You need to build into your cost to play the fact that 2-4% of your total return over the long run will be looted ESI's. And you need to be able to put them in storage and keep hunting as if you never looted them.

The offset in your loot return is NOT ( I truly believe this, but there is no proof) as high as having to buy 5 or 10 full ESI's at 750% on the day you decide to quit. So the only way to make it possible is to save them over the years, otherwise you are spending 50k ped on ESI's to get back 60K in skills when you quit, and it is hard for some people to get that huge amount of PED together at once. Saving looted ESI's over time, (and maybe depositing a little more over that time) is the best way to do it. Just remember, it is going to be way more expensive than you think once you are mid level and up. It cost me a FULL ESI just to drop from roughly L64 BLP Sniper to L 58 by removing rifle.

(I had a big esi, and so instead of sitting on it, I removed some of my highest skill, since it didn't affect me that much because I only use L weapons now. It freed up the peds, will save me some ped at the end when I sell, and already am back to L60 in 2 months. So you can also do it this way as you loot them, but if you want to keep all your skills until the day you quit, then SAVING the ESI's you loot is the best way to do it.)
Click to expand...

But will esi's keep dropping if we decide to stack em in our inventory? Bruud's solution is way more elegant, but on the other hand it leaves Mindark out of control of how many people can chip out.
 
Increase drop rate of ESI but not in loot, but as a bonussytem when depositing. :)
You get fragments of ESI and then you use refiner to create a ESI. That way you can
sell your fragments incase you are not interested in using them yourself.
I guess now comes the comment that some will exploit it, but it can be created in a
decent way. Vast majority do use their depo to play with, not to "invest" in whatever... ;)
MA needs way more depos (where value stays in EU) so they could earn on it too.
There are always someone who use new systems in wrong way, but question is, does
the new system in general makes it better? If so, then go for it. :)
 
Spawn said:
But will esi's keep dropping if we decide to stack em in our inventory? Bruud's solution is way more elegant, but on the other hand it leaves Mindark out of control of how many people can chip out.
Click to expand...

That's true...if anything, the drop should be related to the amount of skills out there, and not on a set amount of esi's being out there at one time. I hadn't thought about that til you mentioned it. If it is capped like rares ores or good L bps, on some set amount dropping, it would mess things up. But dropping them based on the total skills that are out there probably wouldn't mess it up so bad if people were storing them. I wonder how they do it.
 
BruuD said:
Increasing the droprate so they end up being valued at 100% would also work yeah ;)
Click to expand...

Then at the end, no need to drop ESI if they become tt food.

Directly remove ESIs from loots, sell then at tt price on trade terminals.


I agree with the necessity to find another more FAIR way to transfer skills.
You should agree mindark, since all support case answers got the word "fair" inside...
 
A simple solution that don't change the current system much, start dropping improved ESI that can store 10x or 100x amount of skills per ped compared to the ones we have now. Makes sure enough drops so markup don't get too high or too low. Everybody win?
 
Unvinsible said:
A simple solution that don't change the current system much, start dropping improved ESI that can store 10x or 100x amount of skills per ped compared to the ones we have now. Makes sure enough drops so markup don't get too high or too low. Everybody win?
Click to expand...

As long ESIs will stay under the form they are actually,

Nothing will change, nothing will be improved, all this would have been be a pure waste of time.
 
Akbar said:
As long ESIs will stay under the form they are actually,

Nothing will change, nothing will be improved, all this would have been be a pure waste of time.
Click to expand...

Think you misunderstood, an example:

Normal Esi with tt=10 ped, has place for 10 ped tt skills

New Improved Esi with tt=1 ped, has place for 10 ped tt skills
 
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