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  1. #1

    Lightbulb How Hunting Skill Gains work

    Below is everything I know about how often you get a skill gain when hunting and how large each skill gain is. This content is probably not perfectly accurate but I hope it should point us all in the right direction.

    I have broken down skill gains into two concepts - frequency and size - and then researched the source of each.

    All of my tests have been done solely under my own avatar. Clearly this is not ideal for some of the tests as I think some of the relationships below may be dependent on an avatar’s skills.

    This is a long post, but hopefully one that will benefit the community. I can see that some of the graphs aren’t great as some of my samples have been small, and the internet tools to calculate the TT value of skill gains aren't very accurate. However at least the graphs should give other testers a decent basis from which to start their own tests.

    Introduction

    There are four main types of skill gains you can get from hunting. These are as follows.

    1. Attack-related skill gains you get during a kill, i.e. pre-kill skill gains.
    2. Attack-related skill gains you get immediately after a kill, i.e. post-kill skill gains. These gains are sometimes referred to as kill bonuses. The source, frequency and size of these post-kill skill gains is different to pre-kill skill gains.
    3. Defense skills that you get from being attacked yourself. I have only tested evader and dodger skill gains, not space or jamming skills.
    4. Skills you get from healing yourself with a FAP or a Regeneration chip.

    Anyway, let’s look at the four areas, breaking them down into frequency and size.

    1. Pre-kill skill gains

    The frequency of pre-kill attack-related skill gains (in terms of green lines per hit) is related to the average damage per shot of the weapon/amp combo you are using.

    Here is the graph. Some of the weapons used were mindforce attack chips, some were melee and some were guns – they seem to work in exactly the same way. Amplifiers seem to add to the average damage of a weapon, and therefore the frequency of skill gains. Unmaxed weapons seem to reduce the average damage of a weapon, and therefore the frequency of skill gains. I presume damage enhancers work the same way but I have not confirmed this.



    So this means that you’ll always have more chance of getting a green line – during a kill - from a weapon/amp doing an average of N damage than when using a weapon/amp doing an average of N-1 damage.

    The size of pre-kill attack-related skill gains (in terms of TT value per skill gain) is fairly constant.

    Here is the graph. I presume the relationship is non-linear. I have no idea what happens with higher levels of mob, or how much the graph is dependent on my own skills.



    2. Post-kill skill gains

    The frequency of post-kill attack-related skill gains (in terms of green lines per kill) is related to the level of the mob.

    Here is the graph. There appears to be a lot of variation here but I believe this is because a lot of kills are necessary before a good pattern emerges, and maybe I haven’t done this for all points on the graph.



    So you should get more green lines immediately after a kill from a level N mob than from a level N-1 mob every time. I have a hunch that this is not true in every single case, as I believe there are small overlaps for reasons as yet unknown.

    The size of post-kill attack-related skill gains (in terms of TT value per skill gain) is related to the level of the mob.

    Here is the graph. Sample size may account for the first two groups not appearing to go very well together on this graph.



    The size of each post-kill skill gain is therefore mob-specific. I have no idea if the relationship is linear or not.

    3. Defense skill gains

    In this section, I will use the term defense to mean both evader and dodger. I have done no testing with space mobs or jamming.

    You can get defense skills when a mob misses you - but you get defense skills far more often when it actually damages you.

    The frequency of defense skill gains is beyond the scope of this thread. However, it appears to be derived from three variables:

    (a)
    The attack rate of the mob, i.e. attempted hits per minute
    (b) Your defense level, i.e. your professional stranding in evader of dodger
    (c) Whether the mob has got bored and stopped giving defense skills altogether

    The info for (a) can be calculated by how many times the mob attempts to hit you. You can count this yourself simply from looking at the mob’s movements, or looking at Entropedia.

    The background to (b) is too complicated for this thread. In summary, all mobs miss you less as your related defense profession increases, and some mobs will only start missing you when this defense professions reaches a certain level. These two excellent threads, one from Doer and one from Ace Flyster, are good starting points for further reading:
    As for (c), to prevent avatars from standing next to a mob and getting defense skills for days on end, all mobs stop giving defense skills after a short time. The code behind this has changed recently, meaning it is not currently possible to ‘reset’ the mob so that it starts to give defensive skills again – for your avatar or any other avatar. I couldn't manage this myself anyway; I tried both running off the radar and dying.

    I tested how long it took five different mobs to get bored with me, and the graph is below. All I have done is shoot the mob once and then stand next to it with a stopwatch for three minutes, starting the timer at the time it first tried to hit me. Each line on the graph below represents between 6 and 25 individual mobs of exactly the same type and maturity, and so the times of the individual skill gains from these 6-25 mobs have been overlaid onto one horizontal line. Al mobs have been tested individually, i.e. with only one hitting me at once. I hope that makes sense as I have had some trouble wording it!

    So… in the graph below I am showing that after two minutes skill gains slow down considerably and possibly stop altogether for some lower end mobs. So 67 mobs hit me a total of 99 times. 94 of those hits were within the first two minutes, 4 of those hits were between 2:05 and 2:28, and none of those hits was between 2:29 and 3:00.



    My testing was done without dying, or involving any other avatars. I wore armor only for the top two mobs. The samples were small because these tests were both boring and costly!

    My conclusion here is simply “don’t expect to get defense skill gains after you’ve interacted with a mob for two minutes”.

    Clearly there is a fair amount for us to learn about this relationship. The best threads to read more about this are possibly these from Serica and Neil:
    The size of defense skill gains is constant up until a point and then rises.

    This is an interesting relationship I think. I don’t believe the graph is a flat line, but that it is a flat line up until a point – and then it moves upwards. Someone else will need to produce a similar graph to compare with mine I think. My evader professional level is 41 which I think could be quite significant to the shape of the graph.



    4. Healing skill gains

    The frequency of skill gains when healing is related to the average heal of the healing tool in use. The relationship is not linear.

    As you can see from the graph below, there is a definite curve. So it looks like a Mod Fap will give no more green lines per heal than a FAP healing for 40 HP – but as you’ll see in the next section, the skill gains themselves should be larger.



    There appears to be no difference between UL and L medical kits, and no difference between standard FAPs and Regeneration chips, and no difference between FAPs that heal within a range and those that give the same heal every time. I think all that is looked at is the average heal that you personally can do with the FAP you’re using.

    I have not tested with any medical enhancers or uber FAPs.

    The size of skill gains when healing is related to the average heal of the healing tool in use.

    This, I would suspect, is a fairly linear relationship:



    So in the case of healing, we can quite easily merge the two graphs above to end up with something like this:



    So my conclusion is that bigger FAPs and Regen chips give more skills - but once the average heals over about 40 there is a slight drop-off. My paramedic profession is level 36 which may or may not be relevant to the shape of the graphs in this section.

    General Info

    Here are some basic facts that apply to all hunting-related skill gains; just stuff I have noticed as I have been testing all this stuff.

    The specific skill mentioned in a green line is not related to the size of the skill gain. The game dishes out a particular skill, and then a skill gain size, as two separate events.

    If you get two (or more) skill-gains from the same event, they will both be full-size gains. This means that the size of the total skill gain is not divided between the individual skill gains.

    Hunting skill gains generally arise more often after a big hit (or a big heal) than after a small hit (or a small heal) – when using the same weapon (or medical kit) I mean. This sounds really useful to know – but it isn’t useful because you can’t control when you do a big hit or big heal!

    The TT size of some individual skill gains occasionally appears to be outside the normal range. I don’t know why this is, and it could even be a bug, but I don’t think it’s amazingly significant in the overall scheme of things.

    This Project

    I started out with an intention to show how the level of a mob is related to the amount of skills you get while killing it. I’ve had an interest in the levels of mobs ever since I was told about this relationship by Hijacker on 31st July 2012. I proved the relationship to myself on 1st August 2012 and moved to the planet of Caraboks that same day.

    I started heavily testing this in January 2013, just before VU 14.

    During my testing, I’ve noticed that some mobs with the same level and the same attributes are slightly different to skill on. You can compare the frequency and size of skill gains of L2 Thief (White Shirt) and L2 Thief (Grey Shirt) - or L1 Tripudion Puny and L1 Caudatergus Puny – or any 10HP Calypso Puny and the Arkadian Yarrijak if you want to see this yourself.

    I am now convinced that mobs have at least one hidden stat in addition to those stats that are visible (e.g. level or psyche) and those stats that can be easily calculated (e.g. max hit or hits per min). Either that, or the level of a mob is not an integer value - it just displays as an integer value. This would explain lots of things that you will see if you contain all of your testing to L1 mobs with 10HP.

    I certainly don’t believe that the level of a mob is anything other than an arbitrary number that has been dished out to vaguely resemble the toughness of a mob. A lot of people seem to think that somehow the stats of a mob translate to the level of the mob, but if you compare the visible stats of something like the L1 Berycled Puny (total attributes 13), the L2 Forum Troll (total stats 134) and the L5 Thug (total attributes 126) you will see that it can’t work like this.

    Cut the crap Forrest, what mobs are best to get skills economically?

    Well... in essence, any mob with a higher level than its stamina is good for cheap skills - stamina is simply a tenth of the HP of a mob, rounded down to the nearest integer, and can be seen when you scan a mob. However this doesn't apply to any mobs other than the very small ones.

    I believe the best mob in the game, in terms of skill-gains per ped spent, is the L4 Bank Robber on Rocktropia. It has 2HP (yes, 2HP). The percentage overkill required in killing these mobs is outrageous, although the total PED you'll spend on overkill is miniscule.

    Post VU14, I have scanned all the Arkadia mobs. Caraboks on Arkadia are level 4 and have 10HP, so they are still the best mobs for cheap skilling on Arkadia. Ostelok, Oro and Feran are also worth a mention. I have no clue about specific Calypso mobs I'm afraid.

    With higher level of mob, I really have no idea which mobs are best to hunt for skills. I am hoping that someone very clever might be able to work that out somehow...

    Have fun! Over and out,

    Forrest

  2. #2
    Stalker Falagor's Avatar
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    Very nice . I can confirm most (all) of it .

    Also there is something that i still need to test. And that my soc friend is sure about: wearing armor increases your evade/dodge realted skillgains (TT wise more not just more greenlines).

    Atm i am 80% sure it is true but i need more tests to 100% confirm this (and i already have good test in my mind but can't start doing it yet).

    Also: thank you for this information - had no idea about it and thought best one is still carabok :
    I believe the best mob in the game, in terms of skill-gains per ped spent, is the L4 Bank Robber on Rocktropia. It has 2HP (yes, 2HP).

    Any certain location where they spawn? Or is ths a secret?

    Falagor

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    Old Alpha corvette's Avatar
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    Great stuff, + rep

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    Marauder M Rufen Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corvette View Post
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    Great stuff, + rep
    Same vote from me +Rep.

    Mark Rufen Power: "Profitable hunting with 100% returns? Possible, want to know how? Learn How To Survive & Profit"

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    Alpha DxBlueIce's Avatar
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    Great, ty - +rep.


    Click the pic for LA details, and ongoing events! Happy Hunting!

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    Stalker Karmic's Avatar
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    blah blah blah, killing lots of low level mobs skills better than killing big ones Nice work laying it out though. There are only 4-5 bank robbers and they are only in one small area and part of the RT noob missions. They respawn quick but if more than one person is trying to skill on them it wouldn't really work, there are plenty of other 10 health and lower mobs all around it, nothing like skilling on tant plateau was though.

  7. #7
    Marauder M Rufen Power's Avatar
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    So my conclusion is that bigger FAPs and Regen chips give more skills - but once the average heals over about 40 there is a slight drop-off. My paramedic profession is level 36 which may or may not be relevant to the shape of the graphs in this section.

    So what you're saying here is the eff/heal of a tool shouldn't surpass 40 otherwise there is "some" drop off. Ok this information is indeed valuable. Does this infact mean that mod faps give the best paramedic gains ingame then, since it has the highest eff/heal, I thought this was the opposite though?

    Hunting skill gains generally arise more often after a big hit (or a big heal) than after a small hit (or a small heal) – when using the same weapon (or medical kit) I mean. This sounds really useful to know – but it isn’t useful because you can’t control when you do a big hit or big heal!

    Again, this would indicate that using a tool such as mod fap would also as you describe enable you to gain skills more often after a big heal as its heal interval is fixed. Is this corret or maybe the non sib faps instead?

    The TT size of some individual skill gains occasionally appears to be outside the norm range. I don’t know why this is & it could even be a bug, but I don’t think it’s amazingly significant in the overall scheme of things.

    This might off been incured by armor decay, if it so happened at the time if you were using some sort of protection, the TT size may have been abnormal because of it.
    Now this is what I wanted to pick out. This part was really interesting for myself.
    Last edited by M Rufen Power; 03-01-2013 at 23:11.

    Mark Rufen Power: "Profitable hunting with 100% returns? Possible, want to know how? Learn How To Survive & Profit"

  8. #8
    Thanks for the kind words, guys.

    For Falagor:

    I wasn't aware there was any link between armor and skills but if you or anyone else can prove then it would certainly be interesting to read about. I certainly haven't disproved it indirectly through any of my testing.

    As Karmic says, the spawn of Bank Robbers is very low and they won't support two people at once at the location we are talking about. They are somewhere in New Harlem, I forget where, but they are next to three thieves at a bend in the road if that helps.

    For Rufen:

    1. I haven't tested adj, imp or mod faps so I can't say anything for certain. But if they fit the graph, these faps will give higher individual skill gains than a fap healing for 40, but won't give skill gains noticeably more often. If someone with an imp or mod fap wants to test this with a mere-mortal fap that would be nice.

    2. I didn't write this very clearly. What I meant was that if you are using a FAP that heals for, say, 30-40 HP, you will receive more skill gains after you do a heal between 35-40 than after you do a heal for 30-35. Similarly if you are hunting with a weapon that does 10-20 damage, you'll see more green lines after a hit of say 17 than after a hit of say 13 - over the long term. Clearly this knowledge is largely academic! I only mentioned it because it was something I noticed by accident while I was testing other things.

    3. I didn't write this very clearly either! What I meant was that if you record the size of every individual skill gain of, e.g. First Aid, say in terms of skill points, you might see something like this: 0.16, 0.16, 0.17, 0.20, 0.17, 0.10, 0.18, 0.16, 0.17, 0.48, 0.16, 0.17. Clearly there is a pattern there except for the two odd ones out. The first time you see the odd ones out you assume you've made a mistake or had one drink too many. But after you've seen the odd ones out a few times you know you haven't gone mad. Whether they appear because MA have coded it like that, or it's an MA bug, or whether even the Skill Scanner tool from Jdegre has a bug, I wouldn't like to say.

    Forrest

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    Marauder M Rufen Power's Avatar
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    Ok thanks for clearing that up. When your hitting at the higher end of any interval you should see higher gains than on the lower side. Ok makes sense, but what makes you say that 40 health is the optimum for heals? I'd also like Falagor to prove whether or not that armour decay has any relation to skill gains .

    Mark Rufen Power: "Profitable hunting with 100% returns? Possible, want to know how? Learn How To Survive & Profit"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by M Rufen Power View Post
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    ... what makes you say that 40 health is the optimum for heals?
    Well... I'm not advising anyone to steer clear of big FAPs, or saying there is any optimum heal necessarily.

    But it's clear that something happens - for my avatar - around the point where heals reach about 20 to 50. Here is the graph again:


    From the graph below, it appears to me that the TT value of skills gained per PEC spent (not including the super cheap FAPs like Adj, Imp or Mod) seems to take a bit of a dive around the 20-50 heal point - for my avatar.



    I don't think this is amazingly significant in the grand scheme of things. I shouldn't think anyone will change their playing habits based on these two graphs.

    But I think other players may see a different curve in the first graph. It would be very interesting if a player with, e.g. level 60+ paramedic, were to do some tests in attempt to reproduce my graph, to see if the bend is still in the same place. Or perhaps two vastly different avatars who share, for example an Imp Fap, could each use it say 300 times and see if either of them got significantly more than 30 green lines from those 300 heals.

    Forrest

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