Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

Gotta argue with the philosophy behind this statement. The knowledge gained from years of play (assuming you want to learn) is undoubtably invaluable. But there is stuff that has been studied and proven beyond doubt. I'm not sure that applies to any loot-theory stuff; the 'proofs' are often more 'plausibility-arguments'. But there is stuff that has been conclusively proven (the armour decay stuff is a good example). Intuition gained from years of playing can't touch stuff that's been conclusively proven.

Jimmy, intuition is like a feather in your hand.
It wants to fly away, but you have to hold onto it.

Proof in this game, like anything else, it is only a matter of time before it evades you. Time will disprove all your nice theories. That 90 percent nonsense is no longer deemed plausible by most of my friends. It once made sense, now it is shown to be the absurdity it really is.

What Interests me is a model where everyone can play and have fun whoever they are, be they mathematicians or a hillbilly.

When you hold onto a theory, it will fly away sooner or later.
 
Ofcourse eco matters, however most people think eco is 100% the same as the dmg/pec calculation on their gun+amp combo. And while that dmg/pec is very important AND most relevant its not the entire thing for a hunter to consider.

Do this:

Install Entropiatracker client, go hunt one mob you usually hunt. After the run repair and note you full cost of ammo+decay+armor+fap+markup.

Take the total amount of dmg done during the hunt, and divide it with your total cost in pec.

Voila : your effective dmg / pec. On that mob , with that setup , and with your defensive skills.
 
Do this: Install Entropiatracker client, go hunt one mob you usually hunt. After the run repair and note your full cost of ammo+decay+armor+fap+markup.

Take the total amount of dmg done during the hunt, and divide it with your total cost in pec.

Voila : your effective dmg/pec on that mob with that setup, and with your defensive skills.
That is a pretty neat way to do it ermik +rep.
 
Proof in this game, like anything else, it is only a matter of time before it evades you. Time will disprove all your nice theories. That 90 percent nonsense is no longer deemed plausible by most of my friends. It once made sense, now it is shown to be the absurdity it really is.

well, rather than arguing.. can you or your friends provide a detailed activity log that shows the ~90% on a long urn?
 
Example from a test i just did using the method i mentioned earlier.

Mob: Huon Young-Mature

Hunt #1

Ranked HK1750 + a105

dmg done 101654
dmg/sec 47.30843
cost

76 pec synth ME
50 pec fap
927 pec armor decay
gun + amp + ammo 1718.79 shots = 35269,57 pec
36322.57 pec cost total
2.7986 dmg / pec EFFECTIVE

Hunt #2

Ranked HK1750 + a105 + 3 slots with DMG enhancers.

dmg done 125930
dmg/sec 59.08739
cost

96 pec synth me
61 pec fap
978 pec armor decay
gun + amp + ammo 1704.93 shots = 43705,88 pec
200 pec , 2 enhancers breakage @ 250%
45240.88 pec cost total
2,7835 dmg / pec EFFECTIVE

Conclusion:

In this scenario, the cost for using enhancers was pretty much absorbed by lower armor decay in relation to total dmg done and more mobs also got killed in hunt #2.

I think 2 enhancers in 1704 shots is abit high, if we calc with 1 / 1000 the end result comes even closer to the result when going unenhanced.

So in this case, in hunt #2 i cycled more peds and killed more mobs, while maintaining the same timeframe and effective dmg/pec as in hunt #1.
 
Jimmy, intuition is like a feather in your hand.
It wants to fly away, but you have to hold onto it.

Proof in this game, like anything else, it is only a matter of time before it evades you. Time will disprove all your nice theories. That 90 percent nonsense is no longer deemed plausible by most of my friends. It once made sense, now it is shown to be the absurdity it really is.

What Interests me is a model where everyone can play and have fun whoever they are, be they mathematicians or a hillbilly.

When you hold onto a theory, it will fly away sooner or later.

There's a difference between theory and proof. The 90% fixed loot return theory nonsense was never proven, and generally never had much of a following in the crowd that test, analyse and document stuff. The armor decay stuff is fully proven, and will never be disproven unless/until MA changes how it works.
 
Looking at all the different replies and trying to understand them has been a chore but I think I have done as well as any.

I think I have come to one conclusion: All the theories are trying to find a pattern in, what I think is mostly a random event. The event being getting loot. I must say that I think that eco plays a part in profit but I also think that you are either lucky or not. I believe that there are factors that help in getting loot like mob, weapon, amount of time played etc. I also think there must be some kind of algorithm that has to do with your avatar. MA has said that gambling is illegal is their country so there must be something that makes the game not 100% random, hence the factors I mentioned above but I think the game is still 95% or more random.
 
Looking at all the different replies and trying to understand them has been a chore but I think I have done as well as any.

I think I have come to one conclusion: All the theories are trying to find a pattern in, what I think is mostly a random event. The event being getting loot. I must say that I think that eco plays a part in profit but I also think that you are either lucky or not. I believe that there are factors that help in getting loot like mob, weapon, amount of time played etc. I also think there must be some kind of algorithm that has to do with your avatar. MA has said that gambling is illegal is their country so there must be something that makes the game not 100% random, hence the factors I mentioned above but I think the game is still 95% or more random.

Ok , you want 800 or 1000 spins on the random wheel for the same money put in?

thats where eco comes in.
 
Ofcourse eco matters, however most people think eco is 100% the same as the dmg/pec calculation on their gun+amp combo. And while that dmg/pec is very important AND most relevant its not the entire thing for a hunter to consider.

Do this:

Install Entropiatracker client, go hunt one mob you usually hunt. After the run repair and note you full cost of ammo+decay+armor+fap+markup.

Take the total amount of dmg done during the hunt, and divide it with your total cost in pec.

Voila : your effective dmg / pec. On that mob , with that setup , and with your defensive skills.

Yup that's the best way to keep it real with dpp. For my longtooth iron challenge blog entry from last summer i reported this:

All told, the mission costs were 22.6 kPEDs offensive and 0.6 kPEDs defensive (defense costs just 2.5% total) to do 6.58 MHP damage and take 23,850 hits. My effective dmg/pec was 2.84 considering all costs, 2.9 when considering offensive costs, and ~2.93 when considering just shots that i targeted properly. Yes, user error was responsible for almost 1 missed shot/mob on average, or 230 PEDs total. Much of this was from a drowsy final night. It only takes one good snooze to rack up a couple dozen autofire misses... eek! Lesson learned?

Makes me appreciate how significant the change to the way misses are charged is. :D
 
Ok , you want 800 or 1000 spins on the random wheel for the same money put in?

thats where eco comes in.

I did say that I thought that eco plays a part and like you say it has to do with the number of spins you get on the old wheel:). Having said that, I have read a lot of posts that say the amount of money spent has to do with return. It seems to be a bit blurry if that relates to ped spent a single mob or over time. Certainly you would expect to receive more return on a 3000 HP mob than a 300 HP mob but most of the posts that I have read along those lines are a bit lacking on the part about eco. But I did get a 2.5K Daikiba mature, so go figure:scratch2:.
 
A few have said there is no proof of long term 90%+ tt return...

http://arkadiaforum.com/showthread.php?4642-Mordrell-s-Hunting ... my hunting log that has been going since August 2012

138111.08 tt spent (ammo/armor+weapon+amp+fap decay)
131903.14 tt looted (tt of loot)

95.5% tt return ... usually more towards 96%+ but in bad phase atm

Biggest hunting loot so far was 2k Riptor Alpha hit after 95k cycle

Most used gear:

Cap 34 Jungle + a104 - 49.5 dps -2.925 dpp
Law 46 Jungle + a104 - 50.1 dps - 2.913 dpp
Raw 505 + a104 (3 x dmg enhance) - 42.2 dps - 2.8 dpp ~ 1/3 of ammo spent with this gun
Ark 34 desert + beast - 50.1 dps - 2.899 dpp
Asi 37 + beast - 53.1 dps - 2.901 dpp
X1 + beast ~ no dps stats on entropedia ?
P46 + a104 - 58.4 dps - 2.899 dpp ~ my favorite pistol by far atm

Anyone not getting at least 90% is definitely doing something wrong, and I am not going for the most eco setup either ... for me its more important to have the dps to minimise my "time in front of mob" and to not get stuck hunting a mob that is paying out poorly.
 
A few have said there is no proof of long term 90%+ tt return...

I have plenty of good sized data sets with over 90% tt return too. There's no proof of the once popular theory that no matter what you do you'll still get 90% return in the long run. Because it was always a load of b******s ;)
 
I have plenty of good sized data sets with over 90% tt return too. There's no proof of the once popular theory that no matter what you do you'll still get 90% return in the long run. Because it was always a load of b******s ;)


Anyone up for burning 5 lv13 amps in one spot, and then burning 2 more while mining regularly ?
 
Perhaps the magic 90% figure became general lore from the return of exactly 90% of ped (in ped, not loot) when coloring. Of course, that figure does not include the decay of the tool. So even in this case eco matters.





edit: grammar
 
I have plenty of good sized data sets with over 90% tt return too. There's no proof of the once popular theory that no matter what you do you'll still get 90% return in the long run. Because it was always a load of b******s ;)

Yes, exactly, and I hope nobody has ever interpreted what I say to mean that. If you do stupid shit in this game it's very easy to get less than that.

In my experience though, if you can maintain an Eco of around 2.8+, and keep your defensive costs around 5%, you are pretty much garuanteed 90%+, provided you cycle enough peds for the size of the mob you are hunting.

The exception to this is the instances, because they are broken.
 
More than 90% return with crappy setup, gz i guess. ( you are not alone )
how i can be more eco... buying super mega giga reworked and modified fap and marco gun @box tyty
 
I think it's all Chaos really ;)
 
Anyone up for burning 5 lv13 amps in one spot, and then burning 2 more while mining regularly ?

Give me the amps and probes and I'll do it.

Konve tried something similar (without the amps) a while back, which ended with the result:

Probes: 6000 PED
Decay: 121.03 PED
Total: 6121.03 PED

TT Result: -2993,63 PED
TT Return: 51.09 %
 
Give me the amps and probes and I'll do it.

Konve tried something similar (without the amps) a while back, which ended with the result:

For the record I have still not seen any kind of "payback".
 
Made a thread on ArkadiaForum about the test I want to do. Ardorjies Crazy Uneconomic Huntinglog on Halix
:tongue2:

Hmmm...anyone else is following Ardorj's hunting log over at ark forum? It seems a bit weird to me somehow...and I can't tell why...

But as far as I can tell, when he uses Castorian EnKnuckles-1, Mux-1 EnergyGlove and Mux-2 EnergyGlove, his number of halix kills seems pretty close, but overall, the TT loot gained when he was using Mux-2 seems to be slightly higher than compared to using Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1.

However, while using Enknuckles-A, despite killing way more halix (120+), the TT loot gained is comparable to when using Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1. The only link I saw is that the TT decayed costs when using Mux-2 is significantly higher than the other 3...while Enknuckles-A, Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1 have pretty close TT decay costs.

Which leads me to an illusion that when using Mux-2, the average loot per kill of the halix is "magically" increased to somewhat "compensate" the extra decay? While when using the "superior" (more eco) Enknuckles-A, the average loot per kill is "magically lowered"? (Though the % returns seems pretty normal to me)

Did I get something wrong somewhere?
 
Hmmm...anyone else is following Ardorj's hunting log over at ark forum? It seems a bit weird to me somehow...and I can't tell why...

But as far as I can tell, when he uses Castorian EnKnuckles-1, Mux-1 EnergyGlove and Mux-2 EnergyGlove, his number of halix kills seems pretty close, but overall, the TT loot gained when he was using Mux-2 seems to be slightly higher than compared to using Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1.

However, while using Enknuckles-A, despite killing way more halix (120+), the TT loot gained is comparable to when using Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1. The only link I saw is that the TT decayed costs when using Mux-2 is significantly higher than the other 3...while Enknuckles-A, Enknuckles-1 and Mux-1 have pretty close TT decay costs.

Which leads me to an illusion that when using Mux-2, the average loot per kill of the halix is "magically" increased to somewhat "compensate" the extra decay? While when using the "superior" (more eco) Enknuckles-A, the average loot per kill is "magically lowered"? (Though the % returns seems pretty normal to me)

Did I get something wrong somewhere?

Thanks for your interest! I try not to look too much at the results coming in incase I might uncoincially differ my playingstyle depending on the weapon used. Example going for a Young with a 'weaker' weapon when I could have gone for an Adult. However I do notice the same things as you put it.
EnKnuckles-1, Mux-1 and Mux-2 all roughly same Halix killed. I would say the average result is from lowest to highest Mux-1, EnKnuckles-1, Mux-2. This goes against the rule "eco is better" because the Mux-2 is by far the worst off.

More Halix killed with EnKnuckles-A might be due to that one being maxed out. I haven't calculated the theoreticly total damage done with each weapon yet. That might give a clue as to what's happening with the numbers killed.

I don't really look at each individual loot, but that can be easily calculated as an average after each hunt. That I got only two globals yet and both with the Mux-2 can be just a coincidense.

I plan to do a 'halfway' conclusion after I completed Stage 4 (~2400 of 4800) and see if I can come up with a graph where X-axis_value = Return_% goes is a straight line up or flattens out. Eco (Dmg/PEC) will NOT give a straight line I'm sure of that. Niether is Dmg/Sec. Maybe I need to do some mathematics before getting the X-axis_value.

Ardorj :)
 
I see...thanks for the clarification.

Hmmm...in the past, I've always thought that the average TT loot per mob is an average that stays the same for a mob, any mob and once hunted in sufficient numbers, you would tend towards this average. And therefore changes in eco of a weapon would be the only thing that affects your TT returns (since the change would affect your cost to kill a mob).

With that sort of view, the theory is that by adjusting your cost to kill per mob (via changes in using more eco weapons, equipment sets etc), if you could lower it close enough to the average TT loot per mob, you could in theory float or breakeven via MU or at least lower your losses.

But now, from a peek at your data, it does appear contradictory to the initial view I had.

It seems to me that the average TT loot per mob is different when you use different weapons to hunt the same mob or mobs. Interesting....and might require further data, "experiments" and "controls". If this were to be proven correct, then it would open a whole new way of looking at things...instead of the regular "eco" chasing.
 
globals and the other unusual high loots make it hard to compare different setups unless you are comparing over a really, really long term. It's possible to just track the lowest most common size loots and see if there is a difference. For me, in long term monthly tracking or over the course of a full iron challenge I have almost always been over 90% many times over 95%. The one exception was doing the merp iron challenge on taxed land where I was in the high 80's percentwise which i attribute to tax and overkill.
 
to the OP loot is based on the 'whole' economy not on youre doings.

Can you imagine how hard it will be on CPU to track every single player based loot ?

Hunting eco will only make you hunt longer for the amount of peds you own.

I went true 4 setups

X1 + dante

isis six + dante

isis seven + dante

DOA RJ + dante

hunted mostly 3 mobs (proterons, levi and longtooth on events)

nothing changed the loot (number of globasl and hofs) stayed the same (the amoiunt of peds same)

all runs are 1K ped ammo

what creature cary as loot is predetirminated when the creature spawn you just need to be the luky one to kill it

eco will only do one think compared to no eco you peds will last longer

if star and jimmy and else hunt whith the MM is not just of the eco is becose the gun out put tons of DPS fast.
 
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what creature cary as loot is predetirminated when the creature spawn you just need to be the luky one to kill it

I dont think it is this way the game work. Do you imagine the number of data needed for this ? I think the loot is derterminated when you loot it !
 
to the OP loot is based on the 'whole' economy not on youre doings.

Can you imagine how hard it will be on CPU to track every single player based loot ?

Hunting eco will only make you hunt longer for the amount of peds you own.

I went true 4 setups

X1 + dante

isis six + dante

isis seven + dante

DOA RJ + dante

hunted mostly 3 mobs (proterons, levi and longtooth on events)

nothing changed the loot (number of globasl and hofs) stayed the same (the amoiunt of peds same)

all runs are 1K ped ammo

what creature cary as loot is predetirminated when the creature spawn you just need to be the luky one to kill it

eco will only do one think compared to no eco you peds will last longer

if star and jimmy and else hunt whith the MM is not just of the eco is becose the gun out put tons of DPS fast.

You are wrong about the loot being predetermined. I filed a support on an issue I had (Long story) and MA told me they could not help me because loot is determined at the time the mob is looted. This, unlike claims, which are determined when you find them (Had a different issue and got my loot for a claim the next time I logged in). Remember this is straight from MA support.
Peace.
 
You are wrong about the loot being predetermined. I filed a support on an issue I had (Long story) and MA told me they could not help me because loot is determined at the time the mob is looted. This, unlike claims, which are determined when you find them (Had a different issue and got my loot for a claim the next time I logged in). Remember this is straight from MA support.
Peace.

i dont realy see what is so changing that the loot is generated when it spawns or when is looted...

i can go whith youre theory what i want to say is that is related to that particular mob (for example how many times you seen same kind of mobs beeng kiled in exact same time) falow events and you will see many times 30 hunters killing mobs and many times 3 or 5 mobs will be looted at exact time so how it works then ?

I stick whith my lokking of the game i belive is linked directly to the mob you are shooting.
 
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i dont realy see what is so changing that the loot is generated when it spawns or when is looted...

i can go whith youre theory what i want to say is that is related to that particular mob (for example how many times you seen same kind of mobs beeng kiled in exact same time) falow events and you will see many times 30 hunters killing mobs and many times 3 or 5 mobs will be looted at exact time so how it works then ?

I stick whith my lokking of the game i belive is linked directly to the mob you are shooting.

I think that it does change things. To me it means that any mob could be a big one. Not to be crazy but I don't think MA would put a 100K ATH on a chirpy, but I think it means that you could shoot any mob and get a good global, rather than trying to find the "right" one. Case in point, I looted a Argonaut gatherer 12824 ped and a Daikiba Mature that was worth 2503 ped and a 159 ped esi chip from an Exarosaur mature that sold for just over 1600 ped. Anyway the point I am trying to make is when its your time you get something good no matter the mob, otherwise it would just be luck to catch the right mob, plus, the big ones I have been lucky enough to get I don't think MA would have put that kind of loot on those smaller mobs if it were up to them.
Peace.
 
I think that it does change things. To me it means that any mob could be a big one. Not to be crazy but I don't think MA would put a 100K ATH on a chirpy, but I think it means that you could shoot any mob and get a good global, rather than trying to find the "right" one. Case in point, I looted a Argonaut gatherer 12824 ped and a Daikiba Mature that was worth 2503 ped and a 159 ped esi chip from an Exarosaur mature that sold for just over 1600 ped. Anyway the point I am trying to make is when its your time you get something good no matter the mob, otherwise it would just be luck to catch the right mob, plus, the big ones I have been lucky enough to get I don't think MA would have put that kind of loot on those smaller mobs if it were up to them.
Peace.

If i remember right when every one was hunting argos near twin 10k was not rare drop.

I belive that the mobs 'retain' part of peds they eat and doing so buid the incoming big HOF's or ATH and i know am right this is proven every day by longtooth. You do realyse they always drop those 4K Hof's you that seems interested in the game you dont find strange that the number is always around 4K ?

Now i can chare something whith you before the and of august 21 at most you will see 58K drop from long tooth (mayby it will be split in two 35/40K like they did on levis last summer) is the MA taht will decide where they will place the triger.

I wont say any thing else but i know the loot is mob related and is when mob spawns i just dont want to tell you how i know. :)
 
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