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Is it okay that people are paying for event prizes out of the loot pool?

Ace Flyster

Ace Flyster

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Joined
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Avatar Name
Dave Ace Flyster
It is now well established that event prizes are paid out of the loot pool? (TT values)

This is directly shown in the cld revenue drop the week after events.

Is this okay?

It feels like tax to me.

If MA wanted to set a massive event prize (which we players have no control over) then we players are paying directly for this? Feels like false economies of scale. IF MA want to give out prizes as incentives for people to play, i.e. incentives to make people decay more, then they lose money on these events.

This is presuming that MA/Calypso pay their share of the event prize. (which I am not convinced, but have no proof eitherway, as clds only show what we are paid)

Thoughts?


Disclaimer: I do not own clds nor do i get involved in events, this is purely raising awareness for the players.

EDIT: i am an idiot, not out of loot pool but revenue, after decay/costs etc

Rgds

Ace
 
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CLD revenue is a portion of the income from Planet Calypso... Events ran by Minark cost that Planet something to run. It'd be nice if 'prizes' just magically appeared out of thin air, but the truth is that something has to pay for it... Don't like it, swap your cld for some aud or compet deeds. ;)

(I guess in theory Mindark could lower the weekly roi every week by 5% and then use that year long tax to fund Mayhem so it won't be as 'obvious'? They already changed the item info screens on the deeds to indicate that we don't 'own' them so that might be a logical next step?... Maybe someone can send a letter to Mr. President, lol.)
 
Ace Flyster said:
It is now well established that event prizes are paid out of the loot pool? (TT values)

This is directly shown in the cld revenue drop the week after events.

Is this okay?

It feels like tax to me.

If MA wanted to set a massive event prize (which we players have no control over) then we players are paying directly for this? Feels like false economies of scale. IF MA want to give out prizes as incentives for people to play, i.e. incentives to make people decay more, then they lose money on these events.

This is presuming that MA/Calypso pay their share of the event prize. (which I am not convinced, but have no proof eitherway, as clds only show what we are paid)

Thoughts?


Disclaimer: I do not own clds nor do i get involved in events, this is purely raising awareness for the players.


Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...

I don't think it's from a loot pool, but from the Call revenue. Just like on other planets the PP has to pay for freebies and prizes that they introduce to the game out of their revenue. So it's cld holders who pay for the prizes in hope more will spend in marry mayhem to justify the prizes.
 
bigdaddy trim said:
I don't think it's from a loot pool, but from the Call revenue. Just like on other planets the PP has to pay for freebies and prizes that they introduce to the game out of their revenue. So it's cld holders who pay for the prizes in hope more will spend in marry mayhem to justify the prizes.
Click to expand...

mastermesh said:
CLD revenue is a portion of the income from Planet Calypso... Events ran by Minark cost that Planet something to run. It'd be nice if 'prizes' just magically appeared out of thin air, but the truth is that something has to pay for it... Don't like it, swap your cld for some aud or compet deeds. ;)

(I guess in theory Mindark could lower the weekly roi every week by 5% and then use that year long tax to fund Mayhem so it won't be as 'obvious'? They already changed the item info screens on the deeds to indicate that we don't 'own' them so that might be a logical next step?... Maybe someone can send a letter to Mr. President, lol.)
Click to expand...

I guess my point is. We have no control over prizes and the amounts, and yet we pay for them, at least part of them.

Doesnt seem right.


Rgds

Ace
 
If the planet organizing the event doesn't pay for the prizes, then who should pay for them? Red Cross? Bill Gates?

When you join a Land Area event who pays for the prizes?
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
If the planet organizing the event doesn't pay for the prizes, then who should pay for them? Red Cross? Bill Gates?

When you join a Land Area event who pays for the prizes?
Click to expand...



Okay, let me put it a different way.

When they screwed up the prizes, we players had zero cld revenue one week and almost nothing the next. THese are deeds people paid good money for and some relay on these payments.

Is that okay? That is also presuming that the planet partner and MA pay their fair share of the prizes, of which we have no proof. (Tin foil hat i know)

Worst case scenario, we pay for their f*** ups.
Best case scenario, we pay a share of the f*** ups.
But in both cases we have no input to stop the f*** ups.



Hands down, i am happy to admit, that tomorrow i may wake up and think. Ace, you are a big pratt, of course this alright, they are doing nothing wrong. But today, it just doesnt feel like it adds up....


Rgds

Ace
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
If the planet organizing the event doesn't pay for the prizes, then who should pay for them? Red Cross? Bill Gates?

When you join a Land Area event who pays for the prizes?
Click to expand...

One last point.

If a planet partner wants to run an event, shouldnt the planet partner pay for prizes and not the players?


Rgds

Ace
 
Ace Flyster said:
Okay, let me put it a different way.

When they screwed up the prizes, we players had zero cld revenue one week and almost nothing the next. THese are deeds people paid good money for and some relay on these payments.

Is that okay? That is also presuming that the planet partner and MA pay their fair share of the prizes, of which we have no proof. (Tin foil hat i know)

Worst case scenario, we pay for their f*** ups.
Best case scenario, we pay a share of the f*** ups.
But in both cases we have no input to stop the f*** ups.


Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...


Yes, it is perfectly okay.

CLDs don't turn you into shareholders, you don't go to meetings and you don't vote.

Ace Flyster said:
One last point.

If a planet partner wants to run an event, shouldnt 'they pay for prizes' and not the players?


Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...

They already do.
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
CLDs don't turn you into shareholders, you don't go to meetings and you don't vote.
Click to expand...

Before I knew about us paying for the prizes, i had no problem with this :)

Maybe just put this down to me being a sunday morning idiot and need more coffee!!!!


Rgds

Ace
 
Angel O2 Mercer said:
Yes, it is perfectly okay.

CLDs don't turn you into shareholders, you don't go to meetings and you don't vote.



They already do.
Click to expand...

CLDs are effectively "non voting ordinary shares". But just like in the real world, if a company makes a dumb decision even as a regular shareholder there is not much you can do (unless you own enough of the company to sway a vote).

CLDs are a revenue share - if revenue is lower (prize payout) then the share is lower. It's pretty simple and absolutely the fairest way to do it (rather than a constant tax, or MA preferential payment).

Btw - CLD owners cannot have negative returns, rather, limited to zero payout. This is not the case for MA, so CLD owners are already having preferential treatment.
 
Ace Flyster said:
Worst case scenario, we pay for their f*** ups.
Best case scenario, we pay a share of the f*** ups.
But in both cases we have no input to stop the f*** ups.
Click to expand...

The first two points are analogous to owning shares in a company, you get to participate in the risks as well as the rewards. But, unlike the third point here, you get invited to the shareholder conference and have the right to speak up, support initiatives or launch your own to influence management, and your vote carries the exact weight of your investment.

When CLDs were introduced, it was my understanding that a similar model of participation is to be implemented here. Until this is fulfilled, I am happy to keep the 1 CLD I had the luck to loot, but I would not pay money for any more. If they require a threshold of having claimed a land plot which itself requires owning 9 CLDs to do, then I will continue to abstain. One $100 share is an equivalent vote, or I don't want it and will continue to treat this as just another game.
 
In theory events should increase the acctivity on the planet and by that increasing the revenue. I mean, they would not have events with prizes if they did not think it was a good thing to do to keep players playing more. So it that case I don't see anything wrong about it. But it's more a thing if they balance the rewards right compared to the benefit of more players playing more.
 
Aio said:
CLDs are effectively "non voting ordinary shares". But just like in the real world, if a company makes a dumb decision even as a regular shareholder there is not much you can do (unless you own enough of the company to sway a vote).
Click to expand...

They are effectively not, because everything ingame is legal property of MindArk or the designated planet partner.

EULA chapter 4.1 paragraph 3.
 
nvm........
 
Lets assume the last mayhem was just a terrible fuck up from mindark and wont repeat again in this form. Events spark the player attention and keep them interested in playing EU. I always thought events also boost the income of mindark but this is not every time the case or so it seems. Anyways without events calypso would been a lot more empty than it is. We do also pay the crapnell and dont complain about it, and everyone can see the impact by just comparing the revenue before and after the introdution.

As long mindark and planet calypso pay their share into the price pool too i have no issues. The interesting question is, do they ?
 
MA obviously did wrong in their thinking when they gave out bonus to players.
Just look at last 2500pts, you got 1k ped for that, and what was the average,
around 500pts per hour? So in 5h players had 200ped bonus per hour.
Ofc that gonna f**k up eco.
 
In a way cld holders own part of calypso, so it is not really the players paying for the prizes, but the calypso owners. Which includes MA and cld holders. During events with prizes MA takes the total income from calypso, subtracts the prize costs, then distributes the remainder proportionally to cld holders and itself. If there is a mistake and income is lost, of course both parties get hit. Same as if there are expensive event prizes and then no one participates.

I do agree that more clarity on cld income should be given, for example how much ma is actually charging for the prizes(its not TT value for UL items). If these were real stock shares we would have that info.
 
What changed last year or so ?
Let see.

Rewards before were valued by players very high (guns, armors, faps ect) but cost to planet partner was symbolic - for example Hedoc Mayhem Modified with TT 70 peds.

Now rewards are changed - ammo - so rewards cost thousands peds each.
 
Dan59 said:
What changed last year or so ?
Let see.

Rewards before were valued by players very high (guns, armors, faps ect) but cost to planet partner was symbolic - for example Hedoc Mayhem Modified with TT 70 peds.

Now rewards are changed - ammo - so rewards cost thousands peds each.
Click to expand...

Of course, but you remember the list of millions of players who were annoyed with "unL item flood".

As with everything in life, there will always be an unhappy person with any decision.

Angel O2 Mercer said:
They are effectively not, because everything ingame is legal property of MindArk or the designated planet partner.

EULA chapter 4.1 paragraph 3.
Click to expand...

Effectively - adverb - actually but not officially or explicitly.

CLD are as close to NVOS as you can get.
 
The thing is that CLD dividend comes from gross revenue, not sales revenue.
MA 50%, MAs PP part 25% and players 25%.
So if MA mess up so they have a negative outcome in sales revenue (gross revenue
minus expenses) they just can't go and take it from CLD dividend.
Well, due to EULA they can do whatever they want, but if they want people to trust
them in the future, they can't. :silly2:
Hopefully they have learned from 2015.

They made the mistake to set dividend related to gross revenue and not sales revenue.
 
Aio said:
Of course, but you remember the list of millions of players who were annoyed with "unL item flood".
Click to expand...

No, i don't remember. Who are they and what game they are playing?
They should try Entropia Universe too.
Find me a hard core (L) grinder who are using top (L) item because is more eco and auction is full of them at low MU and first most because they are annoyed of their mod faps, mod merc's and imk2's .
 
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Stocks are inherently unreliable
 
Price of CLD's show it's ok. Unfortunately there are more dumb ppl in the world than smart ones ;)
Fortunately invisible hand of market will correct that sooner or later ;)
 
Ace Flyster said:
Okay, let me put it a different way.

When they screwed up the prizes, we players had zero cld revenue one week and almost nothing the next. THese are deeds people paid good money for and some relay on these payments.

Is that okay? That is also presuming that the planet partner and MA pay their fair share of the prizes, of which we have no proof. (Tin foil hat i know)

Worst case scenario, we pay for their f*** ups.
Best case scenario, we pay a share of the f*** ups.
But in both cases we have no input to stop the f*** ups.



Hands down, i am happy to admit, that tomorrow i may wake up and think. Ace, you are a big pratt, of course this alright, they are doing nothing wrong. But today, it just doesnt feel like it adds up....


Rgds

Ace
Click to expand...

It bothers me that people have little understanding of what it means to be a shareholder. It's the same situation except you cannot vote people off the board so that policies change.

To Joat, rest assured, these event prizes are coming off the top.
 
atomicstorm said:
It bothers me that people have little understanding of what it means to be a shareholder. It's the same situation except you cannot vote people off the board so that policies change.

To Joat, rest assured, these event prizes are coming off the top.
Click to expand...

They can do whatever they want to fund this ingame.
They should not say it's based on gross revenue when it's based on sales revenue though.
Also, since the info about CLD is in "RL", outside the EULA, they could be in a grey zone...
 
Well tbh we pay for prizes whichever way you cut it, whether from pp revenue, MA revenue or whatever.

I truly can't see the issue as you can't whip up cash from nowhere, i guess the question is where do they get us to pay for them (which part of MA/PP).
 
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Norbert said:
Well tbh we pay for prizes whichever way you cut it, whether from pp revenue, MA revenue or whatever.

I truly can't see the issue as you can't whip up cash from nowhere.
Click to expand...

But you can see the issue, you mention it yourself... you can't whip up bonuses from nowhere.
 
Is it perfectly okay

Ace Flyster said:
[...]
This is presuming that MA/Calypso pay their share of the event prize. (which I am not convinced, but have no proof eitherway, as clds only show what we are paid)

Thoughts?
[...]
Ace
Click to expand...

Prizes are payed by the players 100% and it's the logical thing.
Some people may forget, at times, that this is a business. A business that gives away a lot of money from their pocket is not a good business and you should not be doing ....business with this business, even if you are only buying entertainment :D

Now, that the money for the UA come from CLD or MAs profits, it's still from the player base and it's fine! We're all paying, we all pay for stuff since day 1. Even nondepositors, with time..


Also
Ace Flyster said:
I guess my point is. We have no control over prizes and the amounts, and yet we pay for them, at least part of them.

Doesnt seem right.
Click to expand...

&&
Ace Flyster said:
If a planet partner wants to run an event, shouldnt the planet partner pay for prizes and not the players?
Click to expand...

If we could all stop playing these events, they would disappear and the problem would be solved :D
Do I want them to stop? NOOOO, I can't wait for the next event to shoot some stuff.
What control would you like over the prizes? Do you feel it would be okay for the players to pick the prizes? They might cost us way too much for just 10-15 players to be awarded :)


There's no free stuff in this game man. That uber, that event prize, that MU has to come from someone else. You also pay a MU, pay for an uber and for prizes. Like in a big raffle.

Regards
 
Evey said:
A business that gives away a lot of money from their pocket is not a good business and you should not be doing ....business with this business, even if you are only buying entertainment :D
Click to expand...

If they give rewards in form of rings, faps, guns, armors, buffs, auto loot pills, other pills, smurg deeds and similar then cost is 0 for deed, buffs and pills, 2 ped for ring up to 2 k for top gun ect.
Each of this prices have high value (MU) for players - some of them 30k and more but for event organizer just TT witch is low or even 0.

But they chose in 2015 to combine this rewards also with average high TT of ammo witch resulted in massive give away. It sounded like "Come join -we pay you to play on event, you will get way more than you can spend, free for all" lol.

This year they lowered ammo rewards but its TT stil represent big net outcome in confront of all rewards in items together.
 
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