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Question: ESI drop rates

R

r0ound

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Tas r0ound Tadas
Question to MA and community - why players loot less and less ESI? Here is a print screen of sales and MU of ESI (blue line is sales, green is price)

esi.jpg


Sales of ESI dropped from 100k, to less then 20k ped tt a month. Average price went up. People want to buy and sell skills, but MA dont let us to do that... Now when someone buy skill implant, he pay most of the price for implant, but not for skills... In my mind ESI should cost way lower, maybe even TT. Why? Because then people gonna buy skills, gonna sell skills. MA gonna get way more peds burned (ESI is lost after someone insert skills)...

So... Why its like that?!
 
to be fair when the ESI price drops, the skill prices drop as well. your return on skills will be the same, which is nearly none on most of them. selling skills is not really worth it, apart from a few
 
Me Really Never said:
to be fair when the ESI price drops, the skill prices drop as well. your return on skills will be the same, which is nearly none on most of them. selling skills is not really worth it, apart from a few
Click to expand...

But esi prices has gone up.
 
Me Really Never said:
to be fair when the ESI price drops, the skill prices drop as well. your return on skills will be the same, which is nearly none on most of them. selling skills is not really worth it, apart from a few
Click to expand...

You are right and wrong. Now ESI is ~900%, most skills are 200-400%, so skills buyer must pay 1100-1300% for most skills, while seller gets just 200-400% for skills. Rest 900% going to hunter. If ESI is (lets say) 500% or TT then buyer of skills pay less, while seller gets same for skills. In that case buyer can buy more, seller can sell more = MA will get more PEDs burned. If ESI is TT, then only one who gonna loose is hunter, who cant loot expensive ESI any more, however if ESI is 200-500% but drops way more then now, then hunter will get same MU looted, buyer of skills can buy more, seller can sell more, MA will get more PEDs...
 
I never understood this move from MA also. Sometimes it seems that they like to shoot them self in the foot.
 
They should steadily raise the drop rate over time, consistently, as to not screw over the current markup until ESI is less and less value, then when it is around 150% turn it into a TT item. But doing so to soon will shock the system and hurt a lot of players invested around ESI and skills.
 
Even as cheap as nowadays, skills still represent a substantial value. If one quits and can't chip them out and sell fast, this value stays in game. As a bonus it also increases the probability that the one will come back. If one's still determined to sell, they have to stick around for months trying to find the ESIs, peds come in too slow to be worth withdrawing right away and they entertain themselves by clicking EP or something, so by the time all the skill are sold, there is nothing to withdraw :)
 
Svarog said:
Even as cheap as nowadays, skills still represent a substantial value. If one quits and can't chip them out and sell fast, this value stays in game. As a bonus it also increases the probability that the one will come back. If one's still determined to sell, they have to stick around for months trying to find the ESIs, peds come in too slow to be worth withdrawing right away and they entertain themselves by clicking EP or something, so by the time all the skill are sold, there is nothing to withdraw :)
Click to expand...

True. But now look to another side of that - new players dont have a chance to buy skills and grow fast to high lvl...
 
All droprates are linked by item caps, doesn't matter the item.

ESI is (L), so is limited by total TT available of ESI. If someone has a few thousand ped of ESI in their storage, the drop rate will be reduced. If many have thousands of ped of ESI in storage, the drop rate will tend to zero.

Unfortunately there seems to be a trend currently by some people (naming names is useless here), to manipulate the drops on a lot of high value, highly liquid stuff.
 
Aio said:
All droprates are linked by item caps, doesn't matter the item.
Click to expand...

Is this your theory or is this a proven or by MA spoken out fact?
 
wizz said:
Is this your theory or is this a proven or by MA spoken out fact?
Click to expand...

It's a generally accepted concept from a while ago (everything is lootable etc), but can be confirmed without doubt through upgrade missions (adj ep41 is made, ep41 is looted. adj105 is made, 105 is looted) etc.

You can then forward that through the current complete lack of pyr / diath, and the extremely high MU on enhancers.
 
Aio said:
It's a generally accepted concept from a while ago (everything is lootable etc), but can be confirmed without doubt through upgrade missions (adj ep41 is made, ep41 is looted. adj105 is made, 105 is looted) etc.

You can then forward that through the current complete lack of pyr / diath, and the extremely high MU on enhancers.
Click to expand...

:scratch2:
hmmmm, not quite convinced.
Not saying you're wrong though.

But if we would follow your "theory" that would mean there would be a SHITLOAD of ESI in storage ATM.
This hoarding proces is ongoing from 2007, as the sales trend is going down steadily for the last 10 years.
 
wizz said:
:scratch2:
hmmmm, not quite convinced.
Not saying you're wrong though.

But if we would follow your "theory" that would mean there would be a SHITLOAD of ESI in storage ATM.
This hoarding proces is ongoing from 2007, as the sales trend is going down steadily for the last 10 years.
Click to expand...

And there is. I even know who. Resource caps isn't even a theory. It's a process that is getting manipulated as we speak with several resources. And those caps can be further tweaked by mindark's balancing manager.

Also, not all items are sold on auction. In fact, more are sold hand to hand because of all the peds spent to put on auction. There's also another reason but honestly looking at the graph doesn't tell the whole story.
 
atomicstorm said:
And there is. I even know who. Resource caps isn't even a theory. It's a process that is getting manipulated as we speak with several resources. And those caps can be further tweaked by mindark's balancing manager.

Also, not all items are sold on auction. In fact, more are sold hand to hand because of all the peds spent to put on auction. There's also another reason but honestly looking at the graph doesn't tell the whole story.
Click to expand...


The introduction of #trade really made all auction sales drop due to player to player trades.
 
The problem is there are more people chipping out than chipping in. ESIs are looted when people actually use up ESIs, until then they just sit in storages and don't continue looting. You can notice a HUGE increase in ESI drop rate when you see people chipping in tens of thousands of PED of skills at once.

What MA needs to do is create gear that requires level 100+ and actually make it good so people have incentive to keep chipping up to higher and higher levels. Right now there is ONE gun in game level 105+, and there are hundreds of avatars past level 120.
 
wizz said:
Is this your theory or is this a proven or by MA spoken out fact?
Click to expand...

I disagree with this theory when it come to present pyrite situation. Before the VU last year that introduced the Next target thing in pvp. Pyrite was quite easy to find and many globeled on it including my self. Including my self, then not long after I noticed it was extremely hard to find and needed a much deeper finder to find it. It had fairly low mu before that VU and then after raised quite rapidly 130% to over 300% before MM.

I have mined loads over summer (never got higher than Considerable since VU) stocked up and sold on Caly AH. a lot has been used over MM and there has been no difference in finding it. I have spoken to over PVP miners and they agree with me. Its not like Raging Daikiba Bull Blood Sample that's has one use, it has unversial use that is need in many different bps. I may only be noob miner compared to my peers, but others also do not buy in cap on pyrite theory.

Piotr said:
As someone who mined pvp for years and someone who actually knows what hes talkin about, im not inclined to do any tests. When MA removes pyri from wave, ppl will uber n tower for a while then when MA thinks its enough, they put bck on wave. Happened quite a few times past years (hence the mu spikes from 130 to 200%). Pyri wont stop spawning no matter how much is hoarded, but they just change to spawn less n less on waves
Click to expand...
 
bigdaddy trim said:
I disagree with this theory when it come to present pyrite situation. Before the VU last year that introduced the Next target thing in pvp. Pyrite was quite easy to find and many globeled on it including my self. Including my self, then not long after I noticed it was extremely hard to find and needed a much deeper finder to find it. It had fairly low mu before that VU and then after raised quite rapidly 130% to over 300% before MM.

I have mined loads over summer (never got higher than Considerable since VU) stocked up and sold on Caly AH. a lot has been used over MM and there has been no difference in finding it. I have spoken to over PVP miners and they agree with me. Its not like Raging Daikiba Bull Blood Sample that's has one use, it has unversial use that is need in many different bps. I may only be noob miner compared to my peers, but others also do not buy in cap on pyrite theory.
Click to expand...

Piotr said:
As someone who mined pvp for years and someone who actually knows what hes talkin about, im not inclined to do any tests. When MA removes pyri from wave, ppl will uber n tower for a while then when MA thinks its enough, they put bck on wave. Happened quite a few times past years (hence the mu spikes from 130 to 200%). Pyri wont stop spawning no matter how much is hoarded, but they just change to spawn less n less on waves
Click to expand...



This is how I feel as well.

Would be silly for Mindark to allow players to hoard and completely stall supply of ores/enmatters.

Then again when I look at the dunkel situation, I almost believe it.

Putting it on/off wave and lowering the general distribution would make the most sense.

It could be that rare weapons such as ep-41 / amps etc work differently and actually do have set item caps. But that's no reason to believe that mineral resources work exactly the same way.

People are still occasionally looting things like supremacy armor, shadow armor etc, does this mean someone TT'd some uber armor recently? Probably not...
 
LoL noobs who cant afford to invest alot of money to become uber via chipping skills, have no business being uber. if they cant aford the skills they cant afford the gear and they sure as hell wont be capable of affording to use that uber gear.

just like in RL we have the haves and the havenots. learn what you are and learn to live with that.
 
Whay buy ESI just sell your full Avatar how many ppl has done with MA:s good memory.:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
bigdaddy trim said:
I disagree with this theory when it come to present pyrite situation. Before the VU last year that introduced the Next target thing in pvp. Pyrite was quite easy to find and many globeled on it including my self. Including my self, then not long after I noticed it was extremely hard to find and needed a much deeper finder to find it. It had fairly low mu before that VU and then after raised quite rapidly 130% to over 300% before MM.

I have mined loads over summer (never got higher than Considerable since VU) stocked up and sold on Caly AH. a lot has been used over MM and there has been no difference in finding it. I have spoken to over PVP miners and they agree with me. Its not like Raging Daikiba Bull Blood Sample that's has one use, it has unversial use that is need in many different bps. I may only be noob miner compared to my peers, but others also do not buy in cap on pyrite theory.
Click to expand...

It raised rapidly due to very targetted resource manipulation. The group(s) responsible have methodically targetted one resource after another. It's also very simple, the three things in the game which can be guaranteed to be regularly consumed are pyrite, dianthus and ESIs.

ZPF said:
This is how I feel as well.

Would be silly for Mindark to allow players to hoard and completely stall supply of ores/enmatters.

Then again when I look at the dunkel situation, I almost believe it.

Putting it on/off wave and lowering the general distribution would make the most sense.

It could be that rare weapons such as ep-41 / amps etc work differently and actually do have set item caps. But that's no reason to believe that mineral resources work exactly the same way.

People are still occasionally looting things like supremacy armor, shadow armor etc, does this mean someone TT'd some uber armor recently? Probably not...
Click to expand...

It is a bad system but MA need to retain full economic control and this is one of the only ways they can do so. Unfortunately they (or rather, regular players) are being strong-armed by a certain group.

Items (unique ID) and resources (ores, materials, (L)) do work in different ways. Items are defined by total number in-game, which resources are defined by total TT in game.

The fact that you can still loot a random rare armour part means nothing, for 2 reasons - firstly, loot frequencies for those items (or rather, timing segments for those items) are very low. Secondly, MA can alter the item caps at any time (balancing manager). Want to drop an IMK2? Just +1 the item number, and one will turn up (on a Longu unless they change the loot tables).

Why do you think newly introduced looted / mined stuff always, always follows a positively skewed distribution curve? It would, if the only function was loot frequency (timing segment), tend to a flat distribution (one could argue slightly positively skewed due to activity).

As I said, MA are stuck between a rock and a hard place because if they raise item caps, the hoarders will just market dump their stocks and we will see a complete crash, with a very long period of instability. If they leave it, one certain group (NO NAMES LOL) will continue to seize resources.

I wonder what people will feel like when the only lootables are ammo, shrap, lyst, oil?
 
Aio said:
It raised rapidly due to very targetted resource manipulation. The group(s) responsible have methodically targetted one resource after another. It's also very simple, the three things in the game which can be guaranteed to be regularly consumed are pyrite, dianthus and ESIs.

It is a bad system but MA need to retain full economic control and this is one of the only ways they can do so. Unfortunately they (or rather, regular players) are being strong-armed by a certain group.

As I said, MA are stuck between a rock and a hard place because if they raise item caps, the hoarders will just market dump their stocks and we will see a complete crash, with a very long period of instability. If they leave it, one certain group (NO NAMES LOL) will continue to seize resources.

I wonder what people will feel like when the only lootables are ammo, shrap, lyst, oil?
Click to expand...

c4042-kevin-hart-tare.gif


Haha are you being serious? I really thought before you wrote this that your theory had some base to it. Now I see its just paranoid tin foil hat conspiracy theory. I am not no buying in to this and I will continue discussion. I will slowly just leave the room. :eyecrazy:
 
bigdaddy trim said:
c4042-kevin-hart-tare.gif


Haha are you being serious? I really thought before you wrote this that your theory had some base to it. Now I see its just paranoid tin foil hat conspiracy theory. I am not no buying in to this and I will continue discussion. I will slowly just leave the room. :eyecrazy:
Click to expand...

Please do so. Your insight isnt useful or wanted. That's not a theory that's common sense fact she is stating.
 
Aio said:
It raised rapidly due to very targetted resource manipulation. The group(s) responsible have methodically targetted one resource after another. It's also very simple, the three things in the game which can be guaranteed to be regularly consumed are pyrite, dianthus and ESIs.
Click to expand...

What is Dianthus primarily used for? I need it now too for gardening. Do you think it could be hoarded and manipulated too? Should I buy it advance to avoid that? Or is it not "too rare"?
 
Pyrite drops in waves with a tt limit per wave. There is not evidence of a total tt limit but I suppose it's possible. Dianthus seems to work the same way.

Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Those with high eco weapons and buff items (rings, sights, scopes) seek to maintain their eco advantage by preventing others who cannot afford expensive items from narrowing the gap with accuracy enhancers (dianthus).

Something needs to be done because dianthus/accuracy enhancer markup has reached the point where it's pointless to use them. Or maybe MA wanted it this way...
 
Many ppl wrote many places but im gonna write it again:
This wave system to control MU makes no sense, especially when trying to control enh MU and availability through putting dianth n pyri on wave. They hurt the game and they hurt the players. Lets see scenarios:
A:
Dianth and pyri removed from wave, ppl can tower:
Ppl mine all the time, getting nice 130-150% MU on them and can hit big. Crafter have ample supply, they craft more and ppl buy them more because they are cheap, even if Avg Joe wouldnt use lets say dmg enhancer but sees "hey, its like 1.5-2% extra cost and i can put out 60% more dps... fine, lets do it".
So in this scenario, ppl mine more craft more and hunt more.

B:
Waveshit as per usual:
Miners wait for wave signal, mine for 10 mins every 30-90 mins. Crafter can barely craft cause of low supply. Hence enh price goes up and way less ppl use them then in scenario A.
So in this scenario, ppl mine less craft less and hunt less.

Wonder which is better...
 
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sidxx said:
LoL noobs who cant afford to invest alot of money to become uber via chipping skills, have no business being uber. if they cant aford the skills they cant afford the gear and they sure as hell wont be capable of affording to use that uber gear.

just like in RL we have the haves and the havenots. learn what you are and learn to live with that.
Click to expand...

What on earth has this got to do with this topic???

You just wanted to show your supiriority about how uber you are? Or what?
What's you point with this noob flame?
 
Piotr said:
Many ppl wrote many places but im gonna write it again:
This wave system to control MU makes no sense, especially when trying to control enh MU and availability through putting dianth n pyri on wave. They hurt the game and they hurt the players. Lets see scenarios:
A:
Dianth and pyri removed from wave, ppl can tower:
Ppl mine all the time, getting nice 130-150% MU on them and can hit big. Crafter have ample supply, they craft more and ppl buy them more because they are cheap, even if Avg Joe wouldnt use lets say dmg enhancer but sees "hey, its like 1.5-2% extra cost and i can put out 60% more dps... fine, lets do it".
So in this scenario, ppl mine more craft more and hunt more.

B:
Waveshit as per usual:
Miners wait for wave signal, mine for 10 mins every 30-90 mins. Crafter can barely craft cause of low supply. Hence enh price goes up and way less ppl use them then in scenario A.
So in this scenario, ppl mine less craft less and hunt less.

Wonder which is better...
Click to expand...

This. :wise:
 
Piotr said:
Many ppl wrote many places but im gonna write it again:
This wave system to control MU makes no sense, especially when trying to control enh MU and availability through putting dianth n pyri on wave. They hurt the game and they hurt the players. Lets see scenarios:
A:
Dianth and pyri removed from wave, ppl can tower:
Ppl mine all the time, getting nice 130-150% MU on them and can hit big. Crafter have ample supply, they craft more and ppl buy them more because they are cheap, even if Avg Joe wouldnt use lets say dmg enhancer but sees "hey, its like 1.5-2% extra cost and i can put out 60% more dps... fine, lets do it".
So in this scenario, ppl mine more craft more and hunt more.

B:
Waveshit as per usual:
Miners wait for wave signal, mine for 10 mins every 30-90 mins. Crafter can barely craft cause of low supply. Hence enh price goes up and way less ppl use them then in scenario A.
So in this scenario, ppl mine less craft less and hunt less.

Wonder which is better...
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you, the wave system just simply does not work. But there are two issues at play.

Yes, 100%, the actual looting system is based on time segments (waves). This is provable by mushrooms, GNA/cubes, ELM guns, pyrite as you have seen, etc.

However the secondary (and bigger or at least equally big) issue is the TT cap system. If there is no TT available, you cannot get the resource. See:



As you see from my example, you may get the exact timing right (looting / mining event happening in the "ultra rare" time segment) but if there is no resource availability then you just won't get that resource.

All the pyrite / dianthus which is being collected in the current waves is the absolute minimum trickle which is being used up by people drip feeding the enhancer market. There may be some mechanism where a minimum TT of all resource is available irregardless of resource cap, but I haven't see the evidence for this.

Xen said:
Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Those with high eco weapons and buff items (rings, sights, scopes) seek to maintain their eco advantage by preventing others who cannot afford expensive items from narrowing the gap with accuracy enhancers (dianthus).

Something needs to be done because dianthus/accuracy enhancer markup has reached the point where it's pointless to use them. Or maybe MA wanted it this way...
Click to expand...

Agreed. The three things I could come up with were this (maintaining eco advantage by killing EST users costings - I would point out the players who maybe recently sold their EST? ;)), choking dmg enhancer users in events, and finally simply greed by adding artificial markup ala OPEC and Oil in the real world.

Venture Bros said:
What is Dianthus primarily used for? I need it now too for gardening. Do you think it could be hoarded and manipulated too? Should I buy it advance to avoid that? Or is it not "too rare"?
Click to expand...

Weapon Economy, Skill Modification, and most importantly Accuracy enhancers. You're definitely too late to the party if you want to avoid it being hoarded ;)
 
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