Is Mindark trying to revive a long lost market economy?

We all know where most markups has gone, and now with all threads about Loot 2.0 we also know how much skills and high end gear matters. Not as much maybe? And we also know how loot has changed, with lesser sellable stacks of oils and what not. Yea, ofc, miners and crafters still can make what they have always made. But for hunters it is a major change in returns and loots.

We have also for more than a decade tried to figure out the optimal play style for optimal returns. Not how we should play to get the optimal markup. It's focus has been on playing the single player game of grinding the shit out of some poor mobs in the most optimal way, to maximize our loot.

Many of you remember the golden days of markups, and how intenselly fun it was to try and get best markup materials. The goal was not to skill gain, but to ped gain, by supplying the market with what was in demand.

I personally believe that the only purpose of being higher skilled was originally meant to be able to find and craft rarer materials, with higher markups. Not being able to TT profit by using exploitable gear.

But somewhere down the line over supply of goods crippled the economy completelly.

Imagine if Mindark has come to the conclusion that a healthy market economy is way better than revenue from a few high end players willing to invest in high end gear, that in the end anyway will bite their revenue ass, because of their effectiveness? And revenue from the insertion of explo crafting as a sollution to deminishing revenue.

If this is actually the case then dpp, eco, tt% will be less important, replaced by players skilling to be able to find higher markup goods.

What do you think, can it be an ingame market enhancement move by Mindark?
If so, then I think we all should help out making that happen. By suggesting ideas to said enhancements.

So if you have any suggestions how Mindark could achieve such a thing I think that would be great.

Maybe it is time for a new mindset as a citizen of Entropia
Entropia was and should foremost be a market economy.

Very nice read, could be part of the actual loot 2.0000000000000000001 system
I don't remember where I read about , something like more effective way of killing = eligible for a uncomon->rare item drop


I am selling out soon , so I believe i won't see the EU golden era

I think everybody just focuses on the primary producer, the hunter or miner. You are told to "sell your loot for markup" or stfu and quit whining. Well it takes two to argue, two to fuck and two to trade. What about the buyers, why should they pay you a decent price, where is their advantage in turn? Hardly anyone really knows, or cares to know it seems. Auction data deceives by only ever showing successful trades, nobody knows how much more was listed in vain and the fees lost. Economy means cycles, but we only ever look at a section of it.

It does look as if MA is trying to tackle overabundance. We as participants need to get in the habit of looking at the whole picture more. Those who like to publish elaborate statistics about their returns are only ever at the producer side. If 100k cycled is a benchmark, how does someone do who takes 100k of stuff out of the producers' hands within the same timeframe? If they're reluctant to tell, then it means they have carved out a niche for themselves which is not very scalable and would collapse if every me-too broke into it and did the same.

I am not going to be shy about saying this, since i strongly believe it to be true. There's many among this community who have been here for a decade that i would assume to be agreeing with what i will now write.

There's been a fair share of controversy, like the exit from EMW, the introduction of iron missions that made many old players take a big hit financially. Events that the same people keep winning over and over that finally did tip over into pass hope that things will change. This made players stop playing, and most of all its seen in the declining supply/demand on items in game.

There's only so much Strongboxes can do for you to boost the economy, Which they've done for a good amount of time. Now that rings become a common thing, the Strongboxes doesent really cover the same space in profits they've done. They're simply now less desired since the items they deliver is much less worth now.

On top of all this, Loot returns have for a long period been extremely punishing, often returns are 75% or lower. Draining people's ped card AND lust for depositing to only loose them quick again.

To put even more on top, this punishing loot is the outcome of Rings from strongboxes buffing a good portion of the wealthier playerbase with higher DPP, Items from iron missions that is also not cheap, buffing things even further in DPP. Making the less wealthy players punished for their now obselete gear setups which DPP now only make them loose more than they did before all this gear was implemented, MAINLY through strongboxes that made easy and fast money with items that people strongly wanted due to what they could do to boost their economy in hunting (which was compensated by turning loot down by mindark). ITS A BUSINESS.

INDEED IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANGE - LOOT 2.0

This is the outcome given to us, to put things back in shape... This is what they should have done for years ago. Why they're suddenly handing out better returns and lower decay etc. etc. etc.??? They do this because too many are leaving the game after all this B.S.

This is coming from someone who deeply love Entropia and have for a very long time... But i am not a fool. Loot 2.0 is what we should've had for a long time. its less profits but hopefully a lower more stabile one. Making the lesser man get more for his money before he looses it, instead of taking it out of his hands before he even got the chance to adore it...

Loot 2.0 is a buffet of improvements that will make people turn 180° by giving them back hope and motivation since they now know that they have a chance, that their money is better spent and last longer than they did Pre-Loot 2.0.

The high end player sitting on the best gear that before got all the cream on the top have gotten a worse experience (aka. return). This is the compromise to give the majority (mainly newer generation players) a fair place in the Entropia Universe. We're so much closer to a fair distrubution on all levels in game than ever before. The compromise is that thoose who sat in the best positions before dislike this change and even some decide to quit.

All worth it to me.

Pretto Loco said:

I personally believe that the only purpose of being higher skilled was originally meant to be able to find and craft rarer materials, with higher markups. Not being able to TT profit by using exploitable gear.

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Awesome post! Really!

I have exposed the very same idea, but you definitely expressed it way better than me.

DoA said:

You can always use some lower damage gear and scale down on lower mobs if you find out that those have the potential to deliver better markup. No punishment in doing so.

On the other hand, a lower level player doesn't have the option to easily go up and hunt a higher level mob if he finds out that those have the potential to deliver better markup.

Here's where your advantage resides. Now sure, if you want to ignore it and want to just play at your max level, hunting only the biggest mobs that's your problem alone. Not mine. Not MA's.

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Skills matter.

Skills allow me to do what I like to do every day, the more I skill, the more fun I have.

I chipped out and I rebuilt. I can tell you I much prefer running a skilled avatar around much more than an unskilled one. I will never chip out again.

I will continue to skill

i love it, i neeeed more of it!

To have markup we need crafting
To have crafting we need items form crafting that are competitive to the looted gear
To have a market for L items (no matter if crafted or looted), we need a lot less UL Sib (well to late, UL Sib already exists and still more is dropped by MA/PP)

The only way to bring MU back is to fix crafting.
Fix crafting does not mean remove Explo BP, what many Nobrainers want.
Fix crafting means creating a market for crafted gear, speak make crafted items competitive.

Now look what we have in crafting:

Many BPs can´t be crafted at all, as it uses generic components, that no longer drop (Aspis f.e.)
FAP crafting completely dead - low levels use gidted S10 instead crafted, mid levels use Mod2350/2600, high levels use Imp/Mod nothing comparable crafted L with that awesome eco.
Armor crafting, only high end really sellable, all lower level crafted armors not competitive to the tons of armors coming from missions/hunting.

When MA introduced L, I had a dream that EU would become a crafting driven economy.
This dream died the moment MA started to drop UL Sib (remember first drop Korss400 UL) and then the flood of UL Sib for all levels, making all crafted L obsolete.
That was the real deadshot for crafting and so the ingame economy.

Without a crafting driven economy no good MU possible!

ProActive Mango said:

i love it, i neeeed more of it!

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Whoa, flashback to basic training right there.

GoNi said:

To have markup we need crafting
To have crafting we need items form crafting that are competitive to the looted gear
To have a market for L items (no matter if crafted or looted), we need a lot less UL Sib (well to late, UL Sib already exists and still more is dropped by MA/PP)

The only way to bring MU back is to fix crafting.
Fix crafting does not mean remove Explo BP, what many Nobrainers want.
Fix crafting means creating a market for crafted gear, speak make crafted items competitive.

Now look what we have in crafting:

Many BPs can´t be crafted at all, as it uses generic components, that no longer drop (Aspis f.e.)
FAP crafting completely dead - low levels use gidted S10 instead crafted, mid levels use Mod2350/2600, high levels use Imp/Mod nothing comparable crafted L with that awesome eco.
Armor crafting, only high end really sellable, all lower level crafted armors not competitive to the tons of armors coming from missions/hunting.

When MA introduced L, I had a dream that EU would become a crafting driven economy.
This dream died the moment MA started to drop UL Sib (remember first drop Korss400 UL) and then the flood of UL Sib for all levels, making all crafted L obsolete.
That was the real deadshot for crafting and so the ingame economy.

Without a crafting driven economy no good MU possible!

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No. To have markup, we need loots that have added entertainment value over their cash value, to create a reason to want to use them. Whether those loots come from hunting, mining, crafting, or all 3, is a lot less relevant. But, to have crafting, you need crafting.

Mac said:

Skills matter.

Skills allow me to do what I like to do every day, the more I skill, the more fun I have.

I chipped out and I rebuilt. I can tell you I much prefer running a skilled avatar around much more than an unskilled one. I will never chip out again.

I will continue to skill

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Wow this is the only thread I really agree with. I am playing over 10 years and quite a bit each day and I guess I missed the flood of UL SIB weapons. There are more than ever before yes, but a flood I don't think so. I have also noticed that it seems they are coming from the partners not MA. I am not aware of many high end armor being crafted but there are some just not sure which ones. Further someone talks about looting high end components, really, with the exception of a larger ESI and a new helmet I never got one and those really are not components. Can someone tell how many high end components there and what they are or how they are used ? The only one I think is kind of high end are the mushrooms and they seems to drop a fairly decent rate but I have not seen the discovery of a mod2600 or whatever uses the mushroom in a while. Someone else spoke about flooding the market which I think is just silly. Has anyone seen very many of those. I do remember one for a component of the old Breer guns (the little round targeting thing, guy got HOF on them) and a little later they were gone pretty much, the weapons I mean.

I sure many will bust me but who cares just IMO but really it just doesn't seem to make sense to me and in checking the top hunters list, it seems about the same as always.
So fire away I don't mind and I probably won't even answer.

Thanks for all nice reads and replies.
But the intents of Mindarks new loot strategy is still foggy to me.

Maybe they have added a new figuring out thing as levithanikos say

levithanikos said:

I don't remember where I read about , something like more effective way of killing = eligible for a uncomon->rare item drop

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But once that is figured out MA needs some new innovation that makes us pay to figure things out.
Why should the market be run by adding new things that has to be figured out, leaving an astronomic trail of antiquated goods behind.

And what San says touches the idea of a healthier market economy.

San said:

What about the buyers, why should they pay you a decent price, where is their advantage in turn? Hardly anyone really knows, or cares to know it seems.

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They could only do so if they really needed it, if there are limited amounts of it and it is useful.

San said:

Auction data deceives by only ever showing successful trades, nobody knows how much more was listed in vain and the fees lost. Economy means cycles, but we only ever look at a section of it.

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I don't think we need the numbers to come to the conclusion that there is a major over supply of basic goods.
At least on Calypso, where everybody goes to sell.

Are we getting there?

NoBion said:

We're so much closer to a fair distrubution on all levels in game than ever before. The compromise is that thoose who sat in the best positions before dislike this change and even some decide to quit.
All worth it to me.

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A fair distribution is one thing, but whats the point if everybody lose to much, without a functioning market to supply what is distributed in loots? Get the skills back on track as a market factor.

Keep on skilling

Mac said:

I will continue to skill

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Tradionally Lootius was believed to reward us. I think Lootius just was sent by MA to sorting papers in the basement. I heard Mammon is back. He will reward you for your skilling I hope

Or this is also Lootius 2.0. A more mature Lootius.

Should all non useable stuff be tossed out?

GoNi said:

To have markup we need crafting ...

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The elephant in the room is the vast content in Entropia. Some as old as the game itself.
What should MA do with this burdain?
And I agree with what has been said so many, many times before. Stuff has to be useful, if it is not it should just disappear. (r.i.p. Locos Museum of Entropia Universe Diversity)
But hm, I like the ancient hard to find stuff, no matter if it is useful or not.

I suggest an update where we avatars have to visit toilets, where we need to on a daily basis go to the toilet and having to use Basic Toilet Paper and Basic Soap. It will be items in constant demand. And it should be crafted.

Is being entertained by items a solution?

Lefty said:

No. To have markup, we need loots that have added entertainment value over their cash value

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Everything in Entropia was entertaining from the beginning, even basic filters. Why? Because it was new. And MA know it and has supplied us over the years with new stuff, keeping us entertained for a while. But latelly, ask yourself, when where you last time thrilled by something new ingame that made you pay a lot of markup, just because it was new and fun? A hat? A car? A pill?

There is a reason adult people who spend christmas together say, "No presents!".
Why? Because you already have everything you need.
But yea, games should be fun. Maybe I have simple needs to be entertained, but supplying a functioning market with what is in demand is fun enough for me.

The market is dead! Long live the market!

The game is dying face it... Will never be as good as it was in 2005. from 40k active players to barely 3k... and this number decreases each year... Bring more depositors or its lost !

Pretto Loco said:

Many of you remember the golden days of markups, and how intenselly fun it was to try and get best markup materials. The goal was not to skill gain, but to ped gain, by supplying the market with what was in demand.

Click to expand...

It was indeed... and the reason to skill up was to be able to hunt a wider range of mobs.

The problem with the market is low demand. The cycle is dead because mass crafting is dead. The 2 big whales of crafting were (mining) amps and weapons ("Apis industry"). Amps were used to mine resources for weapons. The arrival of UL SIB killed the weapons market. Explo BPs and no weapons market crippled the markups in mining and consequently the amp crafting also took a big hit.

Hunting loot is the next link downstream from the crafting. No crafting > no demand > no markup.The only way to bring back MU is to kill off SIB weapons. UL SIB owners won't be happy about that...

Additionally, MA could somewhat improve demand for resources further with smaller/secondary crafting ventures (like: special weapons--they're hinting at it but nobody knows what's their source will be, loot or craft? craftable trinkets/buffs--which means giving up MA's box selling enterprise, are they ready to give up this income stream?). Anyway, those could only be sideshows at best. The market demand lives or dies with L weapons market, weapons for everyday hunting.
If there's a healthy L weapons market it will push up MU for ores/enmats.

The only way for L weapons to be desirable is to make them better than their UL counterparts, while still being affordable MU wise. The introduction of nanocubes into weapons BP's and oversupply of residue from Explo clicking makes this possible.

Everything's possible and MA can in theory do anything, change anything overnight. The only thing keeping them back is us, the playerbase. They can't piss off all of us, so they have to tread carefully and make changes slowly, incrementally, while keeping an eye on the feedback from the community. Not just the forums I suppose, they can probably see if the change was "warm" or "cold" directly by looking at the activity levels.


Anyway. I know would give up all my gear if only I could get back the good old days of markup hunting.
Would you?

GGG said:

The game is dying face it... Will never be as good as it was in 2005. from 40k active players to barely 3k... and this number decreases each year... Bring more depositors or its lost !

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The game is not dying , and 40k players in 2005? I think now are more than ever

I'm sure MA is finally well-aware of the lacking interprofessional dependency and it needs to be addressed. That's what these crafter changes are about and that's what loot 2.0 is about.

Eventually, maybe by merry mayhem, most or all changes will be implemented and hunters can start getting 3% or better for their loot on a regular basis.. I'm talking oils and wools and shrapnel only. 110% oils would be a game changer for sure.

Just one question, why would any crafter craft anything other than explosives ? I was just looking at the weekly high globals list and the one crafter had over 4600 globals, that is 4 thousand six hundred just this week, and the lowest was still 558 explosives. What other item gets that much attention ? And the best part is you really don't even have to put them on the auction and hope someone will buy them you just TT them and spend your ped. One player posted that EP ruined crafting and I have to believe he is right. The sad thing is I think it may take hunting for anything other than TT items away also.

As MA said loot 2.0 is working as intended
95% returns for everybody even super ubers with super eco gear

those that cycle a lot will need those 5% back in MU atm that is very hard

and I do agree crafting needs a revive so less guns and armor drops from hunting is a good thing
but bring back more hunting MU or hunting will stop

Fifth said:

It was indeed... and the reason to skill up was to be able to hunt a wider range of mobs.

The problem with the market is low demand. The cycle is dead because mass crafting is dead. The 2 big whales of crafting were (mining) amps and weapons ("Apis industry"). Amps were used to mine resources for weapons. The arrival of UL SIB killed the weapons market. Explo BPs and no weapons market crippled the markups in mining and consequently the amp crafting also took a big hit.

Hunting loot is the next link downstream from the crafting. No crafting > no demand > no markup.The only way to bring back MU is to kill off SIB weapons. UL SIB owners won't be happy about that...

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Exactly. However, Mindark are going to have great difficulty in nerfing UL weapons.

sachi.mk2 said:

Exactly. However, Mindark are going to have great difficulty in nerfing UL weapons now that loot seems to have been switched further along the 'cost to kill' formula. Why would anyone use L when they can buy an adj ep41 for 3k-4k etc, or just use a bog-standard ep41 or gravis. I am sure you realise that anyhow. Limited weapons will need to offer something amazingly superior to make player put down their UL weapons and pay 120%+ MU. When L was released most players were hunting with an average of say 2.50 DPP I'd guessimate, L offered a 0.30-0.40 DPP increase. So, I think it would required L weapons that come close to IMK2 stats to make people buy limited.

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Prior to loot 2.0... why buy 9k for a spirit mk.i when the L version was 103-106%? Other than uber guns and event guns, UL offered little value... now L guns are 120%+ so UL has value again. As people flash sale everything it would be prudent to pick up a gun if you have the ped lying around

Rocket192 said:

Prior to loot 2.0... why buy 9k for a spirit mk.i when the L version was 103-106%? Other than uber guns and event guns, UL offered little value... now L guns are 120%+ so UL has value again. As people flash sale everything it would be prudent to pick up a gun if you have the ped lying around

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I guess people wanted a spirit mk.i prior to loot 2.0.

CozMoDan said:

Just one question, why would any crafter craft anything other than explosives ? I was just looking at the weekly high globals list and the one crafter had over 4600 globals, that is 4 thousand six hundred just this week, and the lowest was still 558 explosives. What other item gets that much attention ? And the best part is you really don't even have to put them on the auction and hope someone will buy them you just TT them and spend your ped. One player posted that EP ruined crafting and I have to believe he is right. The sad thing is I think it may take hunting for anything other than TT items away also.

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You answered your own question - because there's no MU on the projectiles. I personally don't understand why anybody does craft them - it just seems like a guaranteed loss.

sachi.mk2 said:

Exactly. However, Mindark are going to have great difficulty in nerfing UL weapons now that loot seems to have been switched further along the 'cost to kill' formula. Why would anyone use L when they can buy an adj ep41 for 3k-4k etc, or just use a bog-standard ep41 or gravis. I am sure you realise that anyhow. Limited weapons will need to offer something amazingly superior to make player put down their UL weapons and pay 120%+ MU. When L was released most players were hunting with an average of say 2.50 DPP I'd guessimate, L offered a 0.30-0.40 DPP increase. So, I think it would required L weapons that come close to IMK2 stats to make people buy limited.

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I mostly agree with one or two caveats, you asked why a L weapon ? Because some of them, even with markup, could cost less to use than and your UL weapon. Plus you would not use your mod merc to do the daily Combibo mission of 50 or 100. One of the biggest reasons for the UL weapon is it never runs out(if you repair ofc). Nothing is worst than running out of an L weapon and be unable to find one on the auction.

CozMoDan said:

I mostly agree with one or two caveats, you asked why a L weapon ? Because some of them, even with markup, could cost less to use than and your UL weapon. Plus you would not use your mod merc to do the daily Combibo mission of 50 or 100. One of the biggest reasons for the UL weapon is it never runs out(if you repair ofc). Nothing is worst than running out of an L weapon and be unable to find one on the auction.

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I only do bonus dailies when they come around, but I definitely use my mod merc for those chirpies, gibnibs, etc so I can get back to big mobs

Mac said:

I only do bonus dailies when they come around, but I definitely use my mod merc for those chirpies, gibnibs, etc so I can get back to big mobs

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hehe try a MarCorp Kallous-5 CDF Edition (L) or 6 that is what I use and mostly 1 shot kills and very cheap to use.

If MA stopped dropping ULSIB's right now, and stopped limited guns dropping in hunting loot. Then over time, crafted limited weapons would start to make an appearance.

But it would take a long time, but it is possible.


MA are idiots......all they see and care about are hunters and not the economy. (this has always been the case, i remember one event for miners, and that was a sham. Giving out special loots in SOOTO's.)


LOOT 2.0 was ALL ABOUT HUNTERS. (these new bps for crafters, is NOT a game changer for the economy)


And for the love of god, will people stop blaming EP's, they have NOTHING to do with the lack of craftable items in game. (If anything they lowered metal residue cost, and subsequently the cost of markup for limited items, not that its made much difference)

Rgds

Ace

livius said:

The game is not dying , and 40k players in 2005? I think now are more than ever

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active players ~3k u can see this on tracker> unique avatars... those who dont glob- dont count as an active player
MA have lots of accounts, but more than half are alts

GGG said:

The game is dying face it... Will never be as good as it was in 2005. from 40k active players to barely 3k... and this number decreases each year... Bring more depositors or its lost !

Click to expand...

GGG said:

active players ~3k u can see this on tracker> unique avatars... those who dont glob- dont count as an active player
MA have lots of accounts, but more than half are alts

Click to expand...

What a crock of sh*t.

Why do people spout numbers like they are facts?

The number of active players 'probably' hasn't changed that much since it went gold.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...e-Active-Player-Base&highlight=active+players

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...er-of-active-players&highlight=active+players

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ve-number-of-players&highlight=active+players


Reminds me of people when they say, 'Hey, i don't get above 50% returns, this game robs me.'

Crock of sh*t


Rgds

Ace

One last one....cause i actually thought this hilarious.

40k people logged in to eudoria at the same time.

MA couldnt handle 200 people on the same server back then.


ROFL


Rgds

Ace