List of official statments pertaining to loot post 2.0

Kain Dewey Fall said:

I'm not an angry person. I consider it constructive, I think you hate me because I am giving my opinion, most people will straight up tell me to jump into a blender, go into debt from scam, and shove my kindness into a state of claustrophobia before putting it into a sealed box.
I could be wrong, I just don't think I am and haven't been given a reason to believe so based on what I've been told.

Click to expand...

I don’t hate you! Far from it, I was just trying to correct your assumptions

I don’t think anyone on this forum hates you Kain, it’s not like your one of those trolls who will remain unmentioned that everyone hates.

Although I’ll admit I have no idea what your saying in regards to the instances since I can see I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say

Can you clarify what you mean by markup being returned? What markup? The markup of the weapons used? Of the key? Etc

Kain Dewey Fall said:

Yeh, pretty awesome. You always know that the LA owner is paid a 3% rate of whatever it is you looted based on how much you have at the end of a hunt on the Land Area. Or I guess what you could have looted minus 3%. What is that, calculus or something? I am just curious of the could have looted or it just being that there is a 3% factor of what you loot that is then given to the LA owner.
Like keeping track of what you are having the game contribute to the owner from your gaming activity.
It is like a manufactured affiliate system or reputation system. I just am not clear on that.

Click to expand...

Your overthinking it, say you would have looted 100 ped, now you get 97 ped and 3 ped goes to the La owner (if the tax rate is 3%)

The game does not keep track of this for the user only for the La owner, and they just get daily updates no specific info.

There is no way to track what you pay to the La owner In taxes other than calculating your returns and multiplying it by 1.03 then subtracting your total loot, then you can see what you paid in taxes


Also affiliates get money based on decay and La owners get money based on loot, they are completely different systems

DrGirlfriend said:

I don’t hate you! Far from it, I was just trying to correct your assumptions

I don’t think anyone on this forum hates you Kain, it’s not like your one of those trolls who will remain unmentioned that everyone hates.

Although I’ll admit I have no idea what your saying in regards to the instances since I can see I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say

Can you clarify what you mean by markup being returned? What markup? The markup of the weapons used? Of the key? Etc

Click to expand...

I am saying that I ran CUHOF 7 times, keeping track of returns because I was going to track average returns.
I ran it 2 times and brought up the Low MU in chat.
3 players told me that the loot is fixed in CUHOF.
The chest that you loot in the end, everything you loot. If you were to take its TT value and the MU of the items and add it up, it would be 100% return on your Ammo Spent and decay.
So I ran CUHOF 5 more times, and as I was doing that, those 3 players were explaining their circumstance, and 2 other players pitched in explaining the circumstance.
Each time I finished the dungeon in those 5 runs, I looked at the TT+MU value of the items I looted in the chest and added them up, and they came out as 100% return each time. Though 73-95% TT value.

DrGirlfriend said:

Your overthinking it, say you would have looted 100 ped, now you get 97 ped and 3 ped goes to the La owner (if the tax rate is 3%)

The game does not keep track of this for the user only for the La owner, and they just get daily updates no specific info.

There is no way to track what you pay to the La owner In taxes other than calculating your returns and multiplying it by 1.03 then subtracting your total loot, then you can see what you paid in taxes


Also affiliates get money based on decay and La owners get money based on loot, they are completely different systems

Click to expand...

I don't know what I am saying that is causing all this confusion.
You pretty close to said everything that I said.

Kain Dewey Fall said:

I am saying that I ran CUHOF 7 times, keeping track of returns because I was going to track average returns.
I ran it 2 times and brought up the Low MU in chat.
3 players told me that the loot is fixed in CUHOF.
The chest that you loot in the end, everything you loot. If you were to take its TT value and the MU of the items and add it up, it would be 100% return on your Ammo Spent.
So I ran CUHOF 5 more times, and as I was doing that, those 3 players were explaining their circumstance, and 2 other players pitched in explaining the circumstance.
Each time I finished the dungeon in those 5 runs, I looked the TT+MU value of the items I looted in the chest and added them up, and they came out as 100% return each time. Though 80-95% TT value.

Click to expand...

That’s a coincidence, as by that logic if the markup dropped of a certain item you’d get more TT return, as well as the opposite.
For example if you raised the markup of the items it gives, you’d have lower TT returns for each instance. This could easily be tested by buying an item it rewards from the chest for way over its MU and setting a new MU for it.


Rather your mistaking cause and effect, you get around 100% return because that is as cheap as those items can be sold without a loss.

Kain Dewey Fall said:

This is something that was done like 6 months ago. Loot 2.0 was like 5 years ago. IDK how it could be confused with something before loot 2.0 when CUHOF has been updated like 9 times since Loot 2.0...

Click to expand...

I really don´t understand what you´re trying to say here. However many times CUHOF has been updated to has no relevance. The underlying loot mechanics have not.

Kain Dewey Fall said:

And also, all your "Would have to of been happening" scenarios is exactly what was going on.

Click to expand...

So your statement that CUHOF is TT+MU = 100% is dependent on the fact that consumers are paying what producers ask for their product in order to break even? If that's the point you´re making, then it actually makes sense. It´s still a flawed statement though as it is non-static. As soon as producers start undercutting, or consumers stop buying it all falls apart. (As explained in the original reply)

Kain Dewey Fall said:

My argument with LA's is that Loot isn't specific, there is no specific amount, whether your loot will be high or low is not determined by an algorithm. So what different does it make if the tax is 3% of what you loot if the loot isn't predetermined. Seems redundant. Seems more like it comes from all loot in the game period in that example.

Click to expand...

Whatever your loot will be is exclusively determined by an algorithm. At this point you´re just making stuff up.

DrGirlfriend said:

That’s a coincidence, as by that logic if the markup dropped of a certain item you’d get more TT return, as well as the opposite.
For example if you raised the markup of the items it gives, you’d have lower TT returns for each instance. This could easily be tested by buying an item it rewards from the chest for way over its MU and setting a new MU for it.


Rather your mistaking cause and effect, you get around 100% return because that is as cheap as those items can be sold without a loss.

Click to expand...

It really isn't that difficult to average out a weekly MU average whether it is a hard PED amount or a percentage of a TT value of a set of items.
And loots are not so scarce. Maybe you can do that, I don't see why we shouldn't try. I just don't want to and I don't think people want to sell their finds at TT+0 odds, even if it does come out as 100%

Ferial said:

I really don´t understand what you´re trying to say here. However many times CUHOF has been updated to has no relevance. The underlying loot mechanics has not.

So your statement that CUHOF is TT+MU = 100% is dependent on the fact that consumers are paying what producers ask for their product in order to break even? If that's the point you´re making, then it actually makes sense. It´s still a flawed statement though as it is non-static. As soon as producers start undercutting, or consumers stop buying it all falls apart. (As explained in the original reply)



Whatever your loot will be is exclusively determined by an algorithm. At this point you´re just making stuff up.

Click to expand...

TBH with you, I agree with you all until I go back over there and run some cuhof dungeons 10 times over again. You and some others have brought up some very good points that has raised my curiosity about what is possible in a lot of circumstances and not only the CUHOF dungeons.

A big determining Factor that is easily noticed in the CUHOF dungeons is the Mirsal Tokens. They have a high MU value or they did, and they still kind of do. But their value has drastically changed in the past 6 months. But they drove the main value of CUHOF Dungeon Loot Values with their now like 300%-500% versus 1000%-2000%
I guess oils too going from 100.03 to 105%
Random Key Parts or fabric fragments, I think have more solid TT value. Just a variety and some large ranges to play with. But it was coming out based on average in the MarkUp. But yeh, this was like 6 months ago, maybe a bit longer, and I was told had only recently been added when I was doing it.

DrGirlfriend said:

When loot is calculated (at the time of looting), 3% (or whatever the tax rate) is removed from the sum of the loot at the loot event, and given to the LA owner as raw ped.

Click to expand...

This is the part that always makes me wonder as an LA owner too. I understand the tax comes out of the loot instance but then I also hear about getting a max 95% return ( or whatever it is) with loot 2.0 and that there is no personal loot pool.


So is the broad 95% return statement for the whole game instead of individual? If they give back 95% some players will win a large number could always be below a personal return of 95% then? Has Mindark ever truly stated the system doesn't track personal losses and balances you back out? I hear some Uber hunters/miners mentioning they could almost know when a balancing loot is coming for them when they dipped too far below the average. But how could this be so without a personal pool?

Now let's say there isn't a personal pool and MA doesn't track what to give anyone it is all just RNG and luck. Where does the ped factor in from loss on LA taxes? If you don't have a personal pool isn't every loot more of a "being in the right place at the right time" thing? Would you have gotten the same global/hof that day anywhere you went? Was it destiny or does the location factor in?

What I mean is sometimes people make it out like hunting at an LA will keep you from being in the profit somehow and I get losing 3% isn't ideal. Does LA tax with 2.0 loot mean you can never achieve your 95% are you stuck at 92% if you only hunt at a LA or is it factored in different? Does LA tax actually directly rob your avatar's wallet or is if just taken off something you randomly got from being there anyways?

David Joker Potanus said:

So is the broad 95% return statement for the whole game instead of individual? If they give back 95% some players will win a large number could always be below a personal return of 95% then?

Click to expand...

That was the whole game at a certain snapshot in time. average skills and 60ish efficiency will net you around this 95%. ubers with 2.0 gear will experience 98% or more.

David Joker Potanus said:

I hear some Uber hunters/miners mentioning they could almost know when a balancing loot is coming for them when they dipped too far below the average. But how could this be so without a personal pool?

Click to expand...

Confirmation bias.

David Joker Potanus said:

What I mean is sometimes people make it out like hunting at an LA will keep you from being in the profit somehow and I get losing 3% isn't ideal. Does LA tax with 2.0 loot mean you can never achieve your 95% are you stuck at 92% if you only hunt at a LA or is it factored in different? Does LA tax actually directly rob your avatar's wallet or is if just taken off something you randomly got from being there anyways?

Click to expand...

From my understanding the 3% or whatever the tax rate is will just come directly from your cycle. It's hidden markup for the hunter. If you otherwise would of gotten 95%, then you will instead get 92% on that land area, assuming all your multipliers are the same. As you own a land area and have access to the numbers I'm sure you can confirm this too. I assume the payout you recieve is directly related to the PED activity on your land, NOT the players returns. You should make the same money off the player if he had a bad run, or had a hof and ended up positive. It also shouldn't matter what his gear or skills are.
Set your land to private for a day, hunt like fuck, check the correlation of your income from your lands against your TT return. Then do it again the next day and see what numbers come in. It would be really interesting to see those numbers.

Katie Chalmers said:

I assume the payout you recieve is directly related to the PED activity on your land, NOT the players returns. You should make the same money off the player if he had a bad run, or had a hof and ended up positive

Click to expand...

Nope. This is the difference between revenue sharing and tax. You will absolutely notice a difference in tax returns when a player gets a big loot. (E.g. UG mech ath)

Yeah the ped income is tied to overall activity. It doesn't tell me what avatar, what creature or if it was mining activity. Some of this would be useful to know as an LA owner to focus on what players are actually doing on the land.

As for locking it down, I had thought about doing just that however I am not nearly the hunter for this kind of experiment. My avatar's hunting almost always ends up terrible and not a single hunting HoF, biggest global was 180 ped since 2006.

I wonder if I am able to make it private for others than just myself. If so I would be willing for for volunteer who wants to experiment.

Ferial said:

Nope. This is the difference between revenue sharing and tax. You will absolutely notice a difference in tax returns when a player gets a big loot. (E.g. UG mech ath)

Click to expand...

I could be wrong. I know there is opposing points of view on this topic. but I don't think that UG deeds are fair evidence to argue over. the numbers are too small, they pay out either 0 or 1 pec per day, and the payout is heavily influenced by rounding. I don't think we can get accurate data from this.

David Joker Potanus said:

Yeah the ped income is tied to overall activity. It doesn't tell me what avatar, what creature or if it was mining activity. Some of this would be useful to know as an LA owner to focus on what players are actually doing on the land.

As for locking it down, I had thought about doing just that however I am not nearly the hunter for this kind of experiment. My avatar's hunting almost always ends up terrible and not a single hunting HoF, biggest global was 180 ped since 2006.

I wonder if I am able to make it private for others than just myself. If so I would be willing for for volunteer who wants to experiment.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you can have a guestlist of some sort. I'm not sure how it works, but the sweat circle event people used to lock down a land area for certain SSI events

Katie Chalmers said:

I could be wrong. I know there is opposing points of view on this topic. but

Click to expand...

There shouldn't be. There is an official statement on it. Go read the OP

Katie Chalmers said:

I don't think that UG deeds are fair evidence to argue over. the numbers are too small, they pay out either 0 or 1 pec per day, and the payout is heavily influenced by rounding. I don't think we can get accurate data from this.

Click to expand...

Yes, 0-1 pec per day, except for those times when they give bigger payouts...

Ferial said:

There shouldn't be. There is an official statement on it. Go read the OP

Click to expand...

Charlie|MindArk said:
Land areas simply take a cut based on the set tax amount from each loot from creatures spawned in the area or mining claims found in the area

Are you referring to this one?
Unless there is additional context I missed, I don't interpret this statement as confirming either of our positions. Additionally, MIndark haven't had a stellar track record of releasing clear and concise statments.

Ferial said:

There shouldn't be. There is an official statement on it. Go read the OP

Click to expand...

Wow!! People are having a hard time reading. I guess it was a good thing to bump this afterall, there is still a lot of misinformation being spread.

Like @sachi.mk2 said tho, maybe a disclaimer in OP would be handy? Stating that this information was given before the looter professions existed?

Wow

Kain Dewey Fall said:

-CUHOF Dungeons strictly give a 100% return based on MU data, so TT+MU=100% return

Click to expand...

I don't know anything specific to CUHOF (it sounds almost like the loot is fixed), but this is a normal function of a market, it's not even in the game at all. It's going to break down along these lines:

The benefit of performing the desired activity on average, is going to come down to a value level where the output of the activity no longer feels profitable. This specifically is EU so it's hard numbers on cash value ofc. And it will balance to nearly zero because some people really just want to sustain their play.

Since the output of this activity is tangible and somewhat variable the expected breakdown should develop with the "normal" loots being whatever they are, and the "unique" loot of the activity will take trend in price according to the overall cost of performing the activity.

No need to program this. People will do it. MV (thus MU) is a function of the market.

David Joker Potanus said:

So is the broad 95% return statement for the whole game instead of individual?

Click to expand...

Right. As far as I can tell, of course. Making the rest of that paragraph basically true.

David Joker Potanus said:

Has Mindark ever truly stated the system doesn't track personal losses and balances you back out?

Click to expand...

Yeah I double checked - there's a link in the OP.

David Joker Potanus said:

Now let's say there isn't a personal pool and MA doesn't track what to give anyone it is all just RNG and luck. Where does the ped factor in from loss on LA taxes?

Click to expand...

Also a guess (I'm no dev here lol):

• Loot Event Occurs
• TT Input to Mob Is Calculated
• Multiplier is Calculated
• Taxes are removed
• Remaining Amount is Filtered Through the Loot Table
• You Get Loot

David Joker Potanus said:

If you don't have a personal pool isn't every loot more of a "being in the right place at the right time" thing? Would you have gotten the same global/hof that day anywhere you went? Was it destiny or does the location factor in?

Click to expand...

Three questions.

• Mostly. Yes. As much as you can control.
• Maybe. I'm not aware of a hard statement on how mob-specific loot pools are.
• Surely the location is a factor, all part of the algorithm. It could still be destiny

David Joker Potanus said:

Does LA tax with 2.0 loot mean you can never achieve your 95% are you stuck at 92% if you only hunt at a LA or is it factored in different? Does LA tax actually directly rob your avatar's wallet or is if just taken off something you randomly got from being there anyways?

Click to expand...

Since I'm babbling (I've been deleted for off-topic before) I just want to point out there's an alternate theory here. That in the list above, at the point of "taxes are removed", there is always a tax taken. And usually theorizing that the tax on "untaxed" land is (was?) 5%. So when MA sells an LA they're not selling the right to tax it, so much as selling the right to control the rate of existing taxes.

At the current time, or in the current system, the 5% could be wildly inaccurate. This could be part of what loot 2.0 returns modify. But in the end it would also mean there's a price point where an LA can actually have lower taxes than what is called "untaxed" land.

None of this conflicts with the quote from Charlie just posted, but it's definitely just another loot theory heh.

David Joker Potanus said:

This is the part that always makes me wonder as an LA owner too. I understand the tax comes out of the loot instance but then I also hear about getting a max 95% return ( or whatever it is) with loot 2.0 and that there is no personal loot pool.


So is the broad 95% return statement for the whole game instead of individual? If they give back 95% some players will win a large number could always be below a personal return of 95% then? Has Mindark ever truly stated the system doesn't track personal losses and balances you back out? I hear some Uber hunters/miners mentioning they could almost know when a balancing loot is coming for them when they dipped too far below the average. But how could this be so without a personal pool?

Now let's say there isn't a personal pool and MA doesn't track what to give anyone it is all just RNG and luck. Where does the ped factor in from loss on LA taxes? If you don't have a personal pool isn't every loot more of a "being in the right place at the right time" thing? Would you have gotten the same global/hof that day anywhere you went? Was it destiny or does the location factor in?

Click to expand...

There isn't a "loot pool" as in "the game has the future of your avatar scripted and gives you loot as it runs through it". However, MA keeps track of your loot and you are travelling along a loot path that's getting wider and wider as your skills improve (you can call this - uhm - the volatility of loot value). Why? Otherwise they can't say that the average return is a certain percentage. And, moreover, RNG isn't allowed by law in many countries (EU is not a casino). That's another thing that found its way into Loot 2.0. That's why there has to be an algorithm of some sort, no matter how simple or complex it is (can't be too complex otherwise loot lag would happen more often).

So yes, you can influence your loot by using the knowledge that's lying around, but you also have to keep in mind that those observations are done by players who invested a lot (money and time) and have a range of items they can choose from (owned or borrowed). Whatever your approach to the game is (deposits, time, main profession, ...), that has a significant implication to what the game feels for you. So whatever you see and read about may seem completely wrong to you because you're not experiencing it that way.

It's like comparing hunting way above what's good for you to hunting below your level. While the first may give you more globals scattered between bad loots, you may see an occasional phase of better loot in the latter with just a few (or even no) globals.

Killahbee said:

Wow!! People are having a hard time reading. I guess it was a good thing to bump this afterall, there is still a lot of misinformation being spread.

Like @sachi.mk2 said tho, maybe a disclaimer in OP would be handy? Stating that this information was given before the looter professions existed?

Click to expand...

Well even if the post get's bumped, people still heavily misinterpret how loot 2.0 works

Yazuki said:

Well even if the post get's bumped, people still heavily misinterpret how loot 2.0 works

Click to expand...

It seems that despite the joined efforts of so many people, over the years, to try to show people how simple the game really is, people just seem to want to make it more difficult than it is.

Ferial said:

It seems that despite the joined efforts of so many people, over the years, to try to show people how simple the game really is, people just seem to want to make it more difficult than it is.

Click to expand...

Surprising how they passed school when they cant even read a few paragraphs

David Joker Potanus said:

So is the broad 95% return statement for the whole game instead of individual? If they give back 95% some players will win a large number could always be below a personal return of 95% then? Has Mindark ever truly stated the system doesn't track personal losses and balances you back out? I hear some Uber hunters/miners mentioning they could almost know when a balancing loot is coming for them when they dipped too far below the average. But how could this be so without a personal pool?

Now let's say there isn't a personal pool and MA doesn't track what to give anyone it is all just RNG and luck. Where does the ped factor in from loss on LA taxes? If you don't have a personal pool isn't every loot more of a "being in the right place at the right time" thing? Would you have gotten the same global/hof that day anywhere you went? Was it destiny or does the location factor in?

What I mean is sometimes people make it out like hunting at an LA will keep you from being in the profit somehow and I get losing 3% isn't ideal. Does LA tax with 2.0 loot mean you can never achieve your 95% are you stuck at 92% if you only hunt at a LA or is it factored in different? Does LA tax actually directly rob your avatar's wallet or is if just taken off something you randomly got from being there anyways?

Click to expand...

They track your losses and earnings but they do not act upon it with a personal loot pool that you feed from.
They never said they don’t act on it in other ways, as they do track it, but if they do it is not from a personal pool of loot that you can draw from. However if they acted on it, they would tell you, as it would make people happy.

MA would not pass the chance to say “you are rewarded for having a period of bad losses” if they could.

Sorry daisy

DrGirlfriend said:

Underground deeds make money based on decay the same as affiliates like egg owners. Not tax so they don’t get a portion of loot, so a giant global means nothing for shareholders as Underground has no tax.

Click to expand...

Arkadia UG is taxed

Jhereg said:

Arkadia UG is taxed

Click to expand...

I stand corrected then, what I said holds true for CLD.
So UG would make more profit from bigger loots and not decay, and CLD makes revenue from decay not taxes.

Thanks for pointing that out

Katie Chalmers said:

Charlie|MindArk said:
Land areas simply take a cut based on the set tax amount from each loot from creatures spawned in the area or mining claims found in the area

Are you referring to this one?
Unless there is additional context I missed, I don't interpret this statement as confirming either of our positions. Additionally, MIndark haven't had a stellar track record of releasing clear and concise statments.

Click to expand...

If you want the full story go read through the topic from which that quote comes. The full quote is:

Charlie|MindArk said:

It works as mentioned a couple of times in this thread. Land areas simply take a cut based on the set tax amount from each loot from creatures spawned in the area or mining claims found in the area.

Click to expand...

And as such there is more information to learn if you read through the topic. The beginning of the quote was omitted in this OP for two reasons:

1. The mention of previous posts in a new topic could have ended up confusing people.
2. I honestly think that the statement is clear enough without the context

I also thought this would go without saying, but if there is anything in this OP that you (not you specifically. Anyone) find confusing I suggest you go read the topics that the quotes are originating from. In some cases theres an equal amount to learn from how the questions were asked as from the answers. I guess i'll add that to the OP as well.

Including the context to all these statements in the OP would not be feasible. The OP is too long for some people to bother reading as it is (as evidenced by the constant stream of misinformation)

The confusion is from LA owners spreading lies about how taxes work so they can get some meagre return on investment on their brutally overpriced land areas.

With the returns they make, and the work required, and the amount of abandoned Land areas they should be like 1/10th their current value

DrGirlfriend said:

The confusion is from LA owners spreading lies about how taxes work so they can get some meagre return on investment on their brutally overpriced land areas.

With the returns they make, and the work required, and the amount of abandoned Land areas they should be like 1/10th their current value

Click to expand...

Or Mindark could make it cheaper to run Landareas. The greed is on the side of Mindark. For a landowner its really hard work to host events or manage a landarea, because of fertiliser cost (maturity = 1200 ip = 600 ped and numbers = 900 ip = 450 ped )and event cost. Improvements are really expensive as well and mobs with a level lower than 20 for a young are simply not doable. That's why you dont see low level mobs on landareas anymore (because it costs 1050 ped to get stalkers and max maturity per dna). They are too expensive to maintain, compared to the income you make. Only a landarea with high level mobs is still manageable.