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  1. #31
    Elite Ace Flyster's Avatar
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    I tried mining different depths years ago. A few simple tests. First bombing with f101 until no resource found then immediately the next bomb with vrx3k, never got a claim at a lower depth. 15 different locations or so before giving up (not enough to be significant, but enough for me to stop trying).

    Rgds

    Ace
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  2. #32
    Old SoberPhil's Avatar
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    Thank you, it was an interesting read, this doesn't come without a question tho


    Quote Originally Posted by kingofaces View Post
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    we basically repeated this, but extended the wait time between drops. With the second miner being 15 minutes after the first "clearing" miner, there was no difference in hit rate
    If I get this correctly (just to make sure), 5 minutes wait time for the other 2 miners lead to bad results, but waiting 15 minutes resulted in ok, or normal returns. What jumps out is that if the same miner goes to the same spot after 15 or even 30 minutes he'll get very bad results.

    Imho, this proves that claims are generated when you click (as in they're not in the ground waiting to be found) based on your avatar's "luck" (ofc it's not luck per se, I just have no better word for it) and history in general. Am I getting to something here, or is this completely off?

  3. #33
    Alpha kingofaces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoberPhil View Post
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    What jumps out is that if the same miner goes to the same spot after 15 or even 30 minutes he'll get very bad results.
    Generally when I've tried to replicate this just by myself at that 15 minute mark, I don't see significantly decreased hit rate. I usually give my timer on LBML 20 minutes just so I move around a little, but there are other reasons why I won't just constantly bomb the same set of coordinates every 20 minutes. I wouldn't do this at Ashi for instance because it's likely someone else mined behind me in those 15-20 minutes. It's also possible the "respawn" rate varies across different areas though or isn't a constant value

    You had the time spacing down for what we did though. Hit rate can vary in an area though, and it can suddenly drop. We incorporated that into the design here to a degree. If you're not careful about that, it can be easy to have a correlation doesn't equal causation moment where you drop 15 minutes later and have a bad second "run", but when you average that out over multiple runs, that hit rate change just becomes normal variation instead of being associated with drop timing.

    The take home of this thread though is that claims aren't just generated when you click, but have some pooled "in the ground" aspect across all avatars. If it was more of a personal loot pool when you click kind of thing, hit rate and TT shouldn't decrease just because someone mined the same area. I put in the ground in quotes because there are multiple ways that process could work, but the end result is that there is a spatial component that at least acts like the hit or miss factor for claims is already "in the ground" before you decide to even click.

  4. #34
    Alpha kingofaces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Flyster View Post
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    I tried mining different depths years ago. A few simple tests. First bombing with f101 until no resource found then immediately the next bomb with vrx3k, never got a claim at a lower depth. 15 different locations or so before giving up (not enough to be significant, but enough for me to stop trying).

    Rgds

    Ace
    Honestly, 15 locations actually probably would have been enough to get significant results. Mine were obvious before I reached significance. I have to dig up the data again, but even after 50 drops, there was a practically non-existent chance that the hit rates were ever going to be the same when I ran the statistical tests.

  5. #35
    Elite Ace Flyster's Avatar
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    After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

    In the good 'ol days, two miners could find the same claim, and it was the first person to get there that claimed it. This led me to believe claims were 'in' the ground before hand. Then the mining system changed and you found the claim instantly. I had always assumed that MA changed the entire system and removed claims 'in' the ground. But after all your tests, the more likely scenario is that they never changed the 'back end system' and only changed the front end and that claims are still 'in' the ground waiting to be found.

    So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

    1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
    2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
    3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.

    I guess from a programming side of things, this is also probably the easiest. And also would go with the double bombing tests done before. The likely hood of a second claim was consistently low and, in my view, in line with a random distribution of claims 'in' the ground.

    Rgds

    Ace

    EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all? This for me is (small) evidence that claims are generated at the time of drop, but not enough to convince of my thoughts from above. Something to ponder.

    Also, MA dropped a purposeful 150k mining claim during an event, for publicity - not 100% sure it was on purpose, but it was a suspiciously rounded amount. This has many different possibilities, one being that claims might have a designated multiplier, or that MA can instigate a manually ratio for a specific time, but not a specific avatar. So the next claim found on the planet will have this multiplier. (i don't not believe for a second that MA can give specific avatars multipliers, and i wouldnt play this game if i thought they did). Just more food for thought.
    Last edited by Ace Flyster; 05-24-2020 at 06:57.
    2nd published novel: 'The Shadow Grounds'
    1st published novel: 'The Eyes of the Devil'
    Book 3 - Working Title 'The Meeting of Worlds' - 25%
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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Flyster View Post
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    After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

    In the good 'ol days, two miners could find the same claim, and it was the first person to get there that claimed it. This led me to believe claims were 'in' the ground before hand. Then the mining system changed and you found the claim instantly. I had always assumed that MA changed the entire system and removed claims 'in' the ground. But after all your tests, the more likely scenario is that they never changed the 'back end system' and only changed the front end and that claims are still 'in' the ground waiting to be found.

    So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

    1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
    2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
    3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.

    I guess from a programming side of things, this is also probably the easiest. And also would go with the double bombing tests done before. The likely hood of a second claim was consistently low and, in my view, in line with a random distribution of claims 'in' the ground.

    Rgds

    Ace

    EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all? This for me is (small) evidence that claims are generated at the time of drop, but not enough to convince of my thoughts from above. Something to ponder.

    Also, MA dropped a purposeful 150k mining claim during an event, for publicity - not 100% sure it was on purpose, but it was a suspiciously rounded amount. This has many different possibilities, one being that claims might have a designated multiplier, or that MA can instigate a manually ratio for a specific time, but not a specific avatar. So the next claim found on the planet will have this multiplier. (i don't not believe for a second that MA can give specific avatars multipliers, and i wouldnt play this game if i thought they did). Just more food for thought.
    If you think of same ATH as I do, it must have been on purpose, since Marco visited
    German television and that someone should have the "luck" to get one just when
    he were there I truely doubt it.

  7. #37
    Mutated mastermesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Flyster View Post
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    EDIT: there is one thing to consider. Someone years ago managed to land on an asteroid in space, and managed to mine and actually found a lyst claim. Why would MA have claims in space at all?
    Where in space? Got some coordinates? It could have possibly been somewhere in a server that is tied to another map or something?

    I think I read somewhere that once Mindark let someone put the entire world in their inventory or something and it crashed the server...

  8. #38
    Elite Ace Flyster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermesh View Post
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    Where in space? Got some coordinates? It could have possibly been somewhere in a server that is tied to another map or something?

    I think I read somewhere that once Mindark let someone put the entire world in their inventory or something and it crashed the server...

    This is a vague memory. Probably here on pcf somewhere and probs in the mining section. But someone managed to find a claim in space. I just don't remember any details.

    Rgds

    Ace
    2nd published novel: 'The Shadow Grounds'
    1st published novel: 'The Eyes of the Devil'
    Book 3 - Working Title 'The Meeting of Worlds' - 25%
    Book 4 - Sci-Fi Book - No title yet - 10%

  9. #39
    Alpha kingofaces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Flyster View Post
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    After reading this and the other test you did, i feel forced to change how i think claims work.

    So here is my, mostly, unproveable theory.

    1) Claims are spawned in the ground.
    2) The amount/type is decided after the avatar finds it - which would take into account finder/amp of the tool used.
    3) Claims are 2d, there is no depth calculated before the claim is found.
    That's the general framework that does seem to fit in my mind. There's been speculation about step 2 out there on what order the attributes of a claim are generated, but one thing that seems to stand out is Valurite or Kirtz. You more or less need to amp to hit those claims setting aside outliers on the very tail of the TT distribution curve.

    That would seem to indicate amount is calculated first, then the system checks if that's enough to include a single stone of a resource. If not (and into assumption territory), it's just not included in the loot table for that individual server calculation on the claim, and selection occurs from the other available resources. There could be a different mechanic like if Valurite was chosen but TT < 6 ped, then type = Lyst or something to that effect, but that would be getting more cumbersome on the programming side across all mining areas.

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