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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by GxB View Post
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    just watch the auction house in EU and you see where this is going.
    You are worried about higher prices, and this is a good point where supply and demand are imbalanced in favour of the suppliers of essentials. Rents are already at critical levels in many places: critical in that people with normal run-of-the-mill jobs in a city can no longer afford to rent living space there. We already need to address this, yes, and while an UBI isn't helpful for this particular point in the long run if parallel action is not taken, an UBI would not be the cause of the problem as such. An UBI won't solve all issues on its own.

    For other suppliers, competition does mean that if you price your product to get bigger profits, others will undercut you and the demand will shift towards those. In EU auction house, I tend to believe undercutting is more than it is in the real world even, so what are you trying to say by pointing to the EU auction? MUs are lower than they 'should' be, aren't they?

    edit:
    new ubi ... people who didnt get welfare now get the ubi on top. so it widens the inequality gap and makes the rich even richer while the poor stay poor?
    This is another good point in relation to relative positions. However, the rich will usually end up paying several or many many ubis depending on how ubis are financed, and end up being less rich directly. Whether they can leverage prices and profit more in an ubi society is a valid counterpoint too, however.
    It is people who work normalish jobs who would see the biggest gains. People on welfare now would not be (much) better off monetarily (depending on what the ubi is set at), but would no longer be stigmatised in the way they often are now.
    Last edited by jetsina; 11-05-2019 at 14:14.

  2. #82
    Prowler jambon's Avatar
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    Universal Basic Income is a precursor to overhauling our entire monetary system and structure for government. And is honestly something that needs to happen if we ever hope to one day have a unified planet where we all work for the good of our species rather than blowing each other up.

    Money has been backed by literally nothing for many years and has lead to instability and crashes of entire countries economies in recent years. Some countries no longer even have their own currency due to this. These issues have also been exacerbated with the invention of consumer credit and the now impossible to pay off country debt. I mean USA owes 23 TRILLION and only gets 3.65 Trillion per year in revenue. Even if they stopped paying out literally everything (all services, workers, social assistance/security, military, road maintenance...etc..etc.) And put the entire earnings towards the debt you're talking about nearly 7 years to pay that off assuming all interest on the debt stops too! People declare bankruptcy everyday for situations not as dire as this!

    Anyways, I could probably write a 3000 page post about this stuff but I won't.

    Bottom line, UBI = a good thing. But it's a baby step towards something much greater that needs to happen and will inevitably happen.


    Watching The End Of The Universe Since 2010...

  3. #83
    Stalker Naverith's Avatar
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    The "debt" you speak of was never designed to be paid off, and in fact, can't be. It is the aggregate amount of loans the US receives (for operating purposes) from a private enterprises called "The Federal Reserve". They are neither "federal" or a reserve. They are private owned and answer to no one. They are the main controller of the US monetary system.

    The taxes that are gleaned from the US citizens, do NOT go to the US government. They go to an independent corporation called the "Internal Revenue Service", who in turn, transfers the money back to the Federal Reserve as payment on the interest ONLY for the (so called) "National debt".

    For further data on this, read this book (free PDF download) called THE CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND

    Only a Socialist would cry "it's all the fault of the rich". The (so called) "rich" weren't born that way. Most of them worked their asses off. In fact, there are an average of 300,000 to 700,000 new millionaires a year in the U.S., and more world wide. It can be done.

    The problem is that there is (in each country), a ruling elite. These people (or one of their children) have always held the power of the country, one way or another. They create a system wherein THEY control the purse strings. They create systems to make sure that their "subjects" must always fight for survival, or (at least) put most of their energies into basic survival (shelter, clothing, food, fuel).

    This is done on purpose. What do you think would happen if the general population didn't have problems in their lives? They might actually pay attention to what's really happening and go into a revolution.

    The bottom line is this. We are controlled. Controlled into what to buy, where to live, how far we can go in life, what we're taught, what we're told NOT to think, talk or do. We're controlled by threats from over 187 agencies (in the US) that can, and would, totally destroy your life if you didn't "toe the line" they created for you.

    If all the controlling entities simply disappeared, we'd be able to create a more functioning system, based on the needs of each individual country.

    I'm not calling for anarchy. I'm saying we need a governmental system like what was envisioned by the Declaration of Independence, that was signed into existence (in America) on August 2 1776. It was a very workable system, wherein the "people" held the power, and the government was their servant.

    That lasted a very short time, until the afore-mentioned elites I spoke of flexed their muscles and started to regain complete control over this new country.

    As I've said before: human morals and integrity, in certain people, take the path of least resistance. As long as that is the norm, as long as too many people are saying "what's in it for me", as long as the general attitude of millennials is based on "entitlement" and not on service to others, we will not advance as a society.

    We have lost (at least) 4 generations to the controlling propaganda of the Elites. They supersede the boundaries of political parties.

    Allow me to quote Edmund Burke:
    "People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors."

    But you'll probably understand it better from George Santayana:
    "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

  4. #84
    Elite wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jambon View Post
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    ... And is honestly something that needs to happen if we ever hope to one day have a unified planet where we all work for the good of our species rather than blowing each other up...
    And yet another idealistic dreamer.

    As if mankind will ever unite. As if we will ever stop blowing each other up.
    As long as men is free to be an individual there will always be strife. There will always be competition for resources.
    Unless you turn man into a mindless zombie.

    You know where this came true? North Korea.
    No free will. 100% centralized.

    Do you really want that? Seriously?

    Damn, I hope these socialistic dreamers will never come to power! And I know for sure many people like me will stand up to trash that system!

    Also, you talk about the good of our species. As if mankind is doing bad at the moment. The human virus is slowly overtaking the planet. The problem is, our species is already doing to well!
    For the sake of the planet, we need wars. We need to keep blowing each other up. For the sake of keeping our numbers in check. Exactly the same as in the natural world.

    So, stop dreaming and be realistic.

    I'd rather fight for what I want instead of being spoon fed like a baby my entire life! It's nature!

  5. #85
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    Here's a simple thought experiment:

    Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

    Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

    Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

    Apply your answer to every business you buy from.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCapital View Post
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    Here's a simple thought experiment:

    Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

    Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

    Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

    Apply your answer to every business you buy from.
    ive told em several times and never got a response. probably because left wing guys are usually quite stupid and dont understand how the market works. or common sense. or basically anything related to the real world.

  7. #87
    Mutated mastermesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCapital View Post
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    Here's a simple thought experiment:

    Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

    Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

    Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

    Apply your answer to every business you buy from.
    The theory is that even though prices will go up the UBI amount will be set higher than what that markup value will be so it will offset it... what looks good on paper though isn't always what'll actually work.

    The reason the idea sounds good is because it would basically tax those areas of an economy that aren't currently taxed, hopefully putting more burden on those that find loopholes now... but well, every system has loopholes, so they'd just find more more than likely.

  8. #88
    Prowler Fanan's Avatar
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    WTF are you all talking about? We all need to work for food, it's the curse!

    Stop that idyllic Utopian thoughts, that will never happen. And our governments will make sure of that.


    Here some people live a entire life from the help of the state but they are a minority, they don't have anything in their names and usually have 5/7/10 or more kids, usually they are emigrants from poor countries.


    Imagine EU with just sweaters and fruit pickers to who will they sell it?
    Hunting in Calypso since: 03-Jan-2008


  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanan View Post
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    Imagine EU with just sweaters and fruit pickers to who will they sell it?
    Let's try a thought experiment:

    Let' say MA closes down input and output of PEDs from EU. (Whatever PEDs are consumed by the system goes back to loot). Then they tax everyone 10 % annually.

    All tax is divided equally to every player (read: UBI). What will happen?

    Top networth players will pay a lot more to the UBI pot than the average player. The average player will now have more ped to spend. This will generate a lot of economic activity (GDP if you will) - so-called "growth".

    Top players gave out the biggest piece of the cake, but they will get it back through added economic activity.

    Those who wants to add value to their UBI can go Sweating or picking fruit.

    After one year, most of the peds have gone back to top players (Messi ). Rinse and repeat - everyone gets to play for another year.


    End of experiment: MA removes ingame UBI. 90 % of players go broke after 1 year and have to sell burgers at McD or bike 100 miles a day delivering mail IRL so they can deposit more peds and lose them again. Rinse and repeat

  10. #90
    Stalker Naverith's Avatar
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    Weirdest theory I've ever heard, and disproven easily.

    When Socialism is instigated in a Capitalist (free market, private property) society "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need", we know what happens.

    In many cities in the U.S., the minimum wage (what has been traditionally paid to children who work at fast food joints 'til they get real jobs) was raised to an arbitrary amount of $15.00 per hour, by the local politicians, who were pandering to their Socialistic voters.

    The immediate reactions were the following:

    1) Hundreds of small businesses closed, as they couldn't afford the forced raise of pay.
    2) Hundreds of people lost their jobs.
    3) Cost of goods went up 25% to 100%.
    4) The local tax district lost millions of dollars in taxes due to less workers and less businesses paying taxes.

    Now, the Socialists that had been whining about not having a "living wage", lost their jobs and couldn't even afford to eat at the fast food places they used to work at.

    Implementing a Socialistic agenda (such as this one) in a free market, simply destroys the area.

    Personally, I think there SHOULD be a UBI for citizens (and I mean CITIZENS) that need it. But with a tiny catch: the person receiving the UBI must work for the issueing authority during the time they receive the UBI, either doing public improvements, assistance in hospitals or old folks homes. Maybe 20 hours a week.

    That way, there would be a "fair exchange" and would qualify under the Capitalistic system and the fairness required by all people on a personal basis.

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