Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

If the bad TT-return runs doesn't suck as hard anymore, then top gear will become very cheap? :scratch2:

Care to explain how higher min-return is going to lower the MU of top gear?


I wasn't really talking about TT return per say, just about how expensive the game is in general as you reach for higher levels. I don't think you'll find anybody at any level that wouldn't enjoy better TT returns.

But, to make an attempt at your questions, one might argue that if the overall TT returns were much higher and more people were able to bridge the MU gap with lesser gear, then the market for the most effective gear would likely drop a bit, yes?
 
But, to make an attempt at your questions, one might argue that if the overall TT returns were much higher and more people were able to bridge the MU gap with lesser gear, then the market for the most effective gear would likely drop a bit, yes?

No. As long as it still has higher DPS/DPP than everything else it will still have high value. With generally better returns the MU of the best gear may even increase a bit, because it comes into reach for more people.
 
try mining, you'll get 81% :D

did some hunting run and nothing changed for me, still around the 96%+ return ( for now ! )
 
That's not a problem that's simply properly bankroll management. The deficit has a limit to how much it can take from you. Once you learn the deficit amount and reach it, you can carry on hunting as it won't take much more from you and eventually should even out through kick backs. I have had bad looting streaks upwards of 2500 kills. How much do Atrox cost to kill again? Oh yeah 1 PED, times that by 3000, potentially -3000 can happen from the start. So you need about 9000 to 12000 ped to hunt atrox efficiently without going broke in a week of cycling 3000 peds. That's not robbery but ignorance.

Casually reading pcf posts, but had to comment. So what you're saying is that it is stupid to hunt Atrox unless a player has at least 12000 ped on their card. Even more ped I'd assume if hunting provider size+

Now lets consider that most of the mobs, that offer any decent entertainment value are bigger than Atrox. What your basically saying is; a player would need well over thousand dollars of bank roll to play effectively for one ped cost to kill. Multiply that up for 2 ped cost to kill or even 5 ped cost to kill.

Then this "non gambling" game is looking unrealistic under those conditions.

But it gets worse, assuming you are correct, because it suggests a player could by 10k ped down and still be waiting for the big hof Now there's going to be a trust issue there. That's just hunting 1 ped cost to kill mobs.

That is not the game I played in 2006 or even 2010.

Rick
 
That's not a problem that's simply properly bankroll management. The deficit has a limit to how much it can take from you. Once you learn the deficit amount and reach it, you can carry on hunting as it won't take much more from you and eventually should even out through kick backs. I have had bad looting streaks upwards of 2500 kills. How much do Atrox cost to kill again? Oh yeah 1 PED, times that by 3000, potentially -3000 can happen from the start. So you need about 9000 to 12000 ped to hunt atrox efficiently without going broke in a week of cycling 3000 peds. That's not robbery but ignorance.

Where do we find a guide for various mob deficit values?
 
Casually reading pcf posts, but had to comment. So what you're saying is that it is stupid to hunt Atrox unless a player has at least 12000 ped on their card. Even more ped I'd assume if hunting provider size+

Now lets consider that most of the mobs, that offer any decent entertainment value are bigger than Atrox. What your basically saying is; a player would need well over thousand dollars of bank roll to play effectively for one ped cost to kill. Multiply that up for 2 ped cost to kill or even 5 ped cost to kill.


"It is stupid to hunt Atrox unless the player doesn't give a shit about money." - FTFY


"Decent entertainment value" is completely relative and subjective. You ever taken a reload pill and one-shotted like 200 Arrets without looting them then taken a loot pill and watch your screen go nuts? IDK man, it's pretty cheap and highly entertaining imo... but tbf I'm easily amused.


Offtopic, but why do people who rage quit still troll the forums?
 
try mining, you'll get 81% :D

did some hunting run and nothing changed for me, still around the 96%+ return ( for now ! )

I swear loot server is in panic mode, after cutting to 90% caused decline, now it compensate by giving 80%. I had one x30 in last 3000 drops. Haven't seen that in years, maybe never. But it's just funny at this point as I do sparse test runs. Bad Sweden, no bunga-bunga today!
 
Casually reading pcf posts, but had to comment. So what you're saying is that it is stupid to hunt Atrox unless a player has at least 12000 ped on their card. Even more ped I'd assume if hunting provider size+

Now lets consider that most of the mobs, that offer any decent entertainment value are bigger than Atrox. What your basically saying is; a player would need well over thousand dollars of bank roll to play effectively for one ped cost to kill. Multiply that up for 2 ped cost to kill or even 5 ped cost to kill.

Then this "non gambling" game is looking unrealistic under those conditions.

But it gets worse, assuming you are correct, because it suggests a player could by 10k ped down and still be waiting for the big hof Now there's going to be a trust issue there. That's just hunting 1 ped cost to kill mobs.

That is not the game I played in 2006 or even 2010.

Rick

Anyone recall an avatar called Faye Ranpha? I used to talk to him quite a bit. Whilst he was grinding Atrox quest, he told me he had lost around 8000+ ped and was quite upset, angry and surprised as he was using an eco setup Isis LR32 Imp + A105. He was ready to quit the game, shortly after he hit a 10K Atrox provider, sometime after that he needed funds IRL and cashed out, never to be heard of again. So yes that is exactly what I am saying, I have seen it happen so many times, big losses before encountering a big style hof. I know OZ #19 on the ATH hunting list, had lost upwards of 40000+ PED before scoring that massive ATH loot, obviously got lucky :smoke:, mobs need bankroll or you'll burn. I recall Jay Juniper had lost a lot of ped somewhere around 15-18K? Looted 25k Sumi. Afterwards changed to being a colourer/ texturer. Sometime after that, never to be seen again.
 
Where do we find a guide for various mob deficit values?

If one existed, I would be profiting all day long. It's for you to find out and figure it out. Get the data :wise:!

I started one on my thread How To Survive 2, you can see it if you like, will be updating it as I go along.
 
"Most of the current complaints we see come from accounts that are within the expected range, we can also state that your returns match the expectations and examples we set in the Dev Notes."



so losing 10k+ Ped / month is OK , the expectations are good but it can be also better than this.


MA this is BULLSHIT !


Edit : since October (November was less active ) my average TT return is under 70% ,the only thing I managed to recover in proportion of 90% is the MU i paid on L guns.
 
Casually reading pcf posts, but had to comment. So what you're saying is that it is stupid to hunt Atrox unless a player has at least 12000 ped on their card. Even more ped I'd assume if hunting provider size+

Now lets consider that most of the mobs, that offer any decent entertainment value are bigger than Atrox. What your basically saying is; a player would need well over thousand dollars of bank roll to play effectively for one ped cost to kill. Multiply that up for 2 ped cost to kill or even 5 ped cost to kill.

Then this "non gambling" game is looking unrealistic under those conditions.

But it gets worse, assuming you are correct, because it suggests a player could by 10k ped down and still be waiting for the big hof Now there's going to be a trust issue there. That's just hunting 1 ped cost to kill mobs.

That is not the game I played in 2006 or even 2010.

Rick

Well said. It was (the game back then) purely amazing.. and now dynamically different.
 
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I'm interested in how you track your runs, can you please give us some details? Like... do you convert your shrapnel mid hunt several times? I think you should stream your runs.

Normally I would say 50-60% is possible only if you convert shrapnel many times, or, you hunt less than 50 mobs or smth like that.... because the return without multipliers is 66-75%.. I am very curious how you get 50%

Med term it's not possible to get such poor returns... and yes, it would be robbery :D

Many people don't seem to understand there is actually a triple randomness to this...

Randomness 1: hits, crits, evasions... Most people hunts mobs that they use 10-15 shots to kill which equates to 6-18 shoots on the extreme ends.

Randomness 2: Mob Maturity... If you are hunting in an area where young to Guardian can spawn, out of every 100 mobs you are probably killing 60 young, 20 mature, 8 old, 5 provider and 2 guardians

Randomness 3: Mob Multiplier... this can be anywhere from .25 to 20,000x...

What does this all mean? Luck plays an even bigger factor than most people stop and consider...

Let's say I get that oh so sought after 20k multiplier on a young mob that i happen to crit 5 times while killing... so 7 shots at .13292 ped per shot means an 18,608 HOF! Pretty great right? But what if my "luck" was the other way and I had no crits and the mob evaded me 4 or 5 times and it took me 18 shots to kills this same mob? Suddenly that HOF jumps to 47,851.......

It works the other way too... you might run across that Mulman Looter Elite and decide to pump 50 or so ped into killing it and get that ever present 25% return so here's 12.57 ped for all your effort...
 
Many people don't seem to understand there is actually a triple randomness to this...

Randomness 1: hits, crits, evasions... Most people hunts mobs that they use 10-15 shots to kill which equates to 6-18 shoots on the extreme ends.

Randomness 2: Mob Maturity... If you are hunting in an area where young to Guardian can spawn, out of every 100 mobs you are probably killing 60 young, 20 mature, 8 old, 5 provider and 2 guardians

Randomness 3: Mob Multiplier... this can be anywhere from .25 to 20,000x...

What does this all mean? Luck plays an even bigger factor than most people stop and consider...

Let's say I get that oh so sought after 20k multiplier on a young mob that i happen to crit 5 times while killing... so 7 shots at .13292 ped per shot means an 18,608 HOF! Pretty great right? But what if my "luck" was the other way and I had no crits and the mob evaded me 4 or 5 times and it took me 18 shots to kills this same mob? Suddenly that HOF jumps to 47,851.......

It works the other way too... you might run across that Mulman Looter Elite and decide to pump 50 or so ped into killing it and get that ever present 25% return so here's 12.57 ped for all your effort...

Long term the luck evens out (see smilgs hunting log, the system keeps him at 96-98% post loot 2.0) and small factors like crits and evades on the multi mob become almost irrelevant because on some multis you will have bad luck and hit crits and no evades but on others you will be on the other side.

This should not be something of concern though, this you cannot control. What you can control however, it's the efficiency of the setup, your skills, MU, consistency... these should be one's concern imo.
 
Many people don't seem to understand there is actually a triple randomness to this...

Randomness 1: hits, crits, evasions... Most people hunts mobs that they use 10-15 shots to kill which equates to 6-18 shoots on the extreme ends.

Randomness 2: Mob Maturity... If you are hunting in an area where young to Guardian can spawn, out of every 100 mobs you are probably killing 60 young, 20 mature, 8 old, 5 provider and 2 guardians

Randomness 3: Mob Multiplier... this can be anywhere from .25 to 20,000x...

What does this all mean? Luck plays an even bigger factor than most people stop and consider...

Let's say I get that oh so sought after 20k multiplier on a young mob that i happen to crit 5 times while killing... so 7 shots at .13292 ped per shot means an 18,608 HOF! Pretty great right? But what if my "luck" was the other way and I had no crits and the mob evaded me 4 or 5 times and it took me 18 shots to kills this same mob? Suddenly that HOF jumps to 47,851.......

It works the other way too... you might run across that Mulman Looter Elite and decide to pump 50 or so ped into killing it and get that ever present 25% return so here's 12.57 ped for all your effort...

If you have a lot of non damage attacks then you haven't done your math. :silly2:
When you figure out what to use against a target non damage attacks will be a minimum.
 
Long term the luck evens out

long term may be in 100 years and 100 millions kills from now. So this whole long term isn't really comforting...
Also, what matters is how the returns are between now and the "long term" & the worst case return during a run... is it 50%, 70%, 90% or 93%... that makes a big difference to the players.
 
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Normally I would say 50-60% is possible only if you convert shrapnel many times, or, you hunt less than 50 mobs or smth like that.... because the return without multipliers is 66-75%.. I am very curious how you get 50%

People are killing 200-500 mobs and getting under 70% Which is of course rubbish
Then you go back out kill another 200-500 mobs and get 80%
Then you question why is hunting in such a horrible state and what was recently changed to bring us here?

Hunting is more volatile than mining on FOMA right now and the average returns are way way lower than what is acceptable.

I hope MA addresses this issue in the near future so this game moves in a positive direction for 2020. Which is the purpose of this thread.
 
maybe they are saving up to pay the big fine for the data breach they had and didn't notify anyone ?
 
People are killing 200-500 mobs and getting under 70% Which is of course rubbish
Then you go back out kill another 200-500 mobs and get 80%
Then you question why is hunting in such a horrible state and what was recently changed to bring us here?

Hunting is more volatile than mining on FOMA right now and the average returns are way way lower than what is acceptable.

I hope MA addresses this issue in the near future so this game moves in a positive direction for 2020. Which is the purpose of this thread.

So typical again today.

Normally I just hunt smaller mobs since it just costs to much to hunt big.
But I got seduced again to do a daily 3.
Guess what, another 60% return run.

The current loot system does not allow you to hunt big if you normally just hunt smaller mobs.
The losses you each time get on the daily 3's are NEVER compensated by your regular smaller 1~2 ped mobs.
It just impossible to do smaller runs of bigger mobs.
 
It's the perfect trap. Progression and character improvement in this game psychologically makes you think you're getting better and improving your chances, but all you're doing is upping your bet, and by then, you're hooked (at least for a little while).

And improving your chances for what? 99% TT returns... I mean, really when you think about it, it's quite funny.

The sooner you realize you cannot control anything in this game, the better. That is.... if you're playing MA's game. The only people doing okay here are the ones not playing by MA's rules (traders, etc.)
 



Wasn't aware of that thread and something that should probably be pinned in the community or deserves an ingame message alert from support to make sure people are aware. So who knows how that will turn out and that is a major legal issue despite it being downplayed by MA.

With that said my thoughts in the other thread and since this is the main thread I created with a discussion on helping MA fix the hunting profession. Figure I would leave this post here.

Obviously that isn't how the hunter profession is designed to play out. ( At least we hope ) This is why players who finally get that big hit instead of it being a recover HOF it is a I quit HOF and run for the hills and never play again. The current way the hunting profession is set up is to drive players out of the game. Instead of creating an engaging profession where skills, knowledge and gear play a part of your success.

This isn't a successful model for a profession to increase growth in the game. Now on the flip side mining is a stable profession where skills, gear and knowledge actually affect your returns. It's a complete profession. You are always learning and you actually feel like you can win because your decisions, and skill actually change your returns. Hunting feels like a slot machine just hope to pick the lucky one and if you win (stop and don't do it again)

Hunting is a loss no matter what. There are no winners! The more you hunt the greater chance of losing. These are the objective facts. You just know it is a loss, you know there will never be a big HOF and it becomes this disheartening endeavor. I know that the gaming Devs aren't striving for this feeling that most of the community has when it comes to hunting. (yes most of the community feels this way about hunting, keep in mind most of the hunting community isn't on the forums )

It's a shame because hunting is a popular profession but it is by far the worst one to partake in. So we can only hope that MA can make improvements. The only current outcome for hunters is quitting before the big HOF or quitting after the big HOF. This is what you call a lose/lose for the community and MA.


If MA did an in game Hunting poll on how the 4,000+ hunters feel about that profession it would come back overwhelmingly dissatisfied. Perhaps that is something they should do to actually keep perspective and to one day hopefully grow the player base.

A finish with a quote from Master Yoda " If losing you are, and no mistakes you have made, then a different game you should play"

Yoda has the best advice ever!
 
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In my opinion, random grinding is a losing strategy and that is proved by many messages in these forums :
if you replace the expression "hunting sucks" with "random grinding sucks" then all the previous whining messages become 100% true.


I think it's up to us to find a decent way :
 
In my opinion, random grinding is a losing strategy and that is proved by many messages in these forums :
if you replace the expression "hunting sucks" with "random grinding sucks" then all the previous whining messages become 100% true.


I think it's up to us to find a decent way :

But... we need to keep feeding the machine!!:broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke::broke:
 
In my opinion, random grinding is a losing strategy and that is proved by many messages in these forums :
if you replace the expression "hunting sucks" with "random grinding sucks" then all the previous whining messages become 100% true.

What is your definition of "Random Grinding"?

Seems like an oxymoron like Jumbo Shrimp, grinding isn't random. What is random though is the volatile loot and how the returns are dialed way down right now by tampering with it over the last few months.

Why has loot changed? Well plenty of theories on that. All we know is we need for it to improve other wise the game suffers. People leave, stop depositing and the game doesn't grow. Shares and Deeds give lower returns, investors then sell and also leave.

Again hope that MA can revert some hidden changes to hunting loot and focus on increasing returns very soon so the game can flourish.
 
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TT returns and whatever seem to still be working as they always have, yeh for casual player it sucks waiting what feels like a lifetime for multi to stabilise but theres not rly a better way to do it, the only thing i think MA need to fix is markup, especially now with codex even casual players have no reason to hunt low mu mobs for the mission or w/e so everyone chase what little markup is left but dont care to hold or match lowest auction price but undercut until everything is in the gutter.

Hunters far outweight crafters so demand more than outstrips supply. MA have got mining in a solid spot, hunting has imo recieved mostly positive changes now i really think they need to go hard at fixing crafting. New boosted bps, special bps whos recipie changes every month or something (so the demand for various different loot changes rather than remains static) imagine even if ep4 changed to 20ped of pancreas oil a click one month, thyroid the next or if there were different bps that made the same thing so like a common bp that made an item, and a rare version that had a more optimal recipie something like that. Idk maybe thats a dumb idea, im sure MA has smarter people than me on economy team that can come up with better solutions but giving people a reason to craft and creating a 2.0 like system for it would improve things for people of all 3 professions imo.

Also little off topic but id like to see a new player vendor with some extremely high efficiency weapons like 90+% efficiency for grinding puny or something, with caps for level use or whatever, just help new players get a foot in the door because at low levels theres barely any good mobs or gear and losing for year+ as an investment into your avatar just isnt attractive to people like it was when you could make a lot of cash playing.
 
the only thing i think MA need to fix is markup

I agree, but... when MA puts MU stuff into loot, for a resource that is 120% goes to 101% in a day or two. When a resource is 200% and goes into loot, the net day is 140% so the problem is quite complex. MA can add stuff into loot, but cannot force people to not crash its MU, because most casual players want to sell MU stuff after every hunt and they put it the cheapest in AH so everyone ends up cutting the price when no one wants t buy for a few hours.
How do you fix that?
 
I agree, but... when MA puts MU stuff into loot, for a resource that is 120% goes to 101% in a day or two. When a resource is 200% and goes into loot, the net day is 140% so the problem is quite complex. MA can add stuff into loot, but cannot force people to not crash its MU, because most casual players want to sell MU stuff after every hunt and they put it the cheapest in AH so everyone ends up cutting the price when no one wants t buy for a few hours.
How do you fix that?

Its about creating demand for the loot rather than just creating the loot, crafting iron missions, crafting events, new blueprints with recipies that change month to month, new upgrade missions for armor and weapons (dont even have to be op upgrades but i think nano adjuster/armor plate/fap upgrade missions were great additions) etc etc. Some event with a bit of a story line like the old days, doesnt have to be too deep, where the mob from the story drops parts or logs or tokens or w/e and parts can be traded in for something. Idk like i say theres smarter people than me that can think of better things but really crafting remains untouched while other two professions have been heavily worked on and majority of loot is used for crafting so there really needs to be more focus on increasing activity in that area.
 
... most casual players want to sell MU stuff after every hunt and they put it the cheapest in AH so everyone ends up cutting the price when no one wants t buy for a few hours.
How do you fix that?

While noting that the OP is about tt returns having appeared to drop recently to below what is acceptable for many people, there has always been the link to mu.
A self-balancing system needs to have an equilibrium point or well - an attractor - strong enough to maintain feedback mechanisms. Mining appears to have the right idea.

Maybe counterintuitively, mining is boring enough to keep many players away unless the demand for mined mats soars and mus go up. If mus go down, so does the number of miners. They don't leave the game, just the activity.

Unfortunately, hunting does not appear to have quite the same mechanism on mus. People either hunt or they stop ped-turnover activity, so MA need to be much more careful about how much tt they "extract" here....

Do you think they have noticed yet or just think it's post-mayhem blues?
 
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