Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

Skills, Gear and Knowledge of the Universe

Skills = no lifing or and money
Gear = money
Knowledge = MU

Next time you see someone high skilled, ask him how much he have no-lifed. What is his no-life skill etc. Gear and knowledge is your money while skills are your time.

Feels good to not be hunting :eek:
 
Ok guys. Time to check something I did in 5min for you. It's quite late and I am sleepy. Positively Skewed Distribution!



Study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/other/positively-skewed-distribution/

MA through their code can manipulate how "symetrical" this distribution should be. You cross green line rarely and they will keep it that way. Tons of stuff probably influence where exactly you are placed on this chart, more on left or more on right, like skills, amount of loot events (the more the better), gun set-up, "knowledge of the game" blah blah etc. but in general you are doomed to loose. Always!

EU players *suffer from bad loot*
MA *laughs in Gaussian*:smoke:

good night folks :cool:
 
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And skills....are the biggest thing everyone is missing when considering their returns.

Skills have no TT value and therefor are not included in TT returns.
The markup of skills after extraction costs can be factored into the markup returns. The problem is that the majority of skills have lost their value. There is simply not enough demand to keep up with the supply. It only takes one serious grinder to flood the market.
I personally can produce more skills than the market can absorb without saturating the market and reducing the value further. And since the new Mayhem system has forced serious competitors who are also serious hunters to diversify, I have done this with clubs, powerfist, shortblades, longblades, cryogenics, pyrokinesis, electrokinesis, support weapons, and of course there's all the "negative value" skills which produce a net loss by chipping out by using ranged weapons. The only weapons I have not personally farmed to the point of market saturation are the weapons which are bottle necked by low DPS (whips, gauss).
Consequently only a small fraction of the skills gained can be counted in markup returns when significant turnover is conducted.
 
ok, about 2 days ago, i lost almost 300 ped on 18 clicks of LR-45, 2x success. today, 723.05 ped run atrox = -422.38 (52.85% return)

are you for damn real?
 
ok, about 2 days ago, i lost almost 300 ped on 18 clicks of LR-45, 2x success. today, 723.05 ped run atrox = -422.38 (52.85% return)

are you for damn real?

It's called a mob deficit, Atrox have this & can last even past 8k peds.
So you could easily lose 3000 peds but noone believes this, but true.
If you complain of returns after 3000 kills then you are over hunting.
Why? Cause you lack the sufficient bankroll to nagivate their deficit.
 
Ok guys. Time to check something I did in 5min for you. It's quite late and I am sleepy. Positively Skewed Distribution!



Study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/other/positively-skewed-distribution/

MA through their code can manipulate how "symetrical" this distribution should be. You cross green line rarely and they will keep it that way. Tons of stuff probably influence where exactly you are placed on this chart, more on left or more on right, like skills, amount of loot events (the more the better), gun set-up, "knowledge of the game" blah blah etc. but in general you are doomed to loose. Always!

EU players *suffer from bad loot*
MA *laughs in Gaussian*:smoke:

good night folks :cool:


They deleted my picture. Great job! I've been here only for 4 years so it is not enough to post a fokken picture. This was a really nice and easy visualisation why there is more people getting 91% TT return than people getting MindArk "average" 97%.
 
They deleted my picture. Great job! I've been here only for 4 years so it is not enough to post a fokken picture. This was a really nice and easy visualisation why there is more people getting 91% TT return than people getting MindArk "average" 97%.

If you have been here for 4 years then you should probably have noticed that they
over and over again tell people to upload pictures to PCFs gallery.
Try again so we can see it. :silly2:
 
It's called a mob deficit, Atrox have this & can last even past 8k peds.
So you could easily lose 3000 peds but noone believes this, but true.
If you complain of returns after 3000 kills then you are over hunting.
Why? Cause you lack the sufficient bankroll to nagivate their deficit.

The problem is the low tt-return... 50-60% over 3k or even over 500 kills... that's just robbing people...
 
The problem is the low tt-return... 50-60% over 3k or even over 500 kills... that's just robbing people...

That's not a problem that's simply properly bankroll management. The deficit has a limit to how much it can take from you. Once you learn the deficit amount and reach it, you can carry on hunting as it won't take much more from you and eventually should even out through kick backs. I have had bad looting streaks upwards of 2500 kills. How much do Atrox cost to kill again? Oh yeah 1 PED, times that by 3000, potentially -3000 can happen from the start. So you need about 9000 to 12000 ped to hunt atrox efficiently without going broke in a week of cycling 3000 peds. That's not robbery but ignorance.
 
Oh yeah 1 PED, times that by 3000, potentially -3000 can happen from the start. So you need about 9000 to 12000 ped to hunt atrox efficiently without going broke in a week of cycling 3000 peds.

9000 to 12000 PED for 1 PED mob, that's just far too much. 2000 to 3000 would be somewhat acceptable.
And you really don't see any issues with 50-60% return runs? That's just trash returns and robbery.

Any why must it be that low? What's your issue with increasing it to 90+%?
 
9000 to 12000 PED for 1 PED mob, that's just far too much. 2000 to 3000 would be somewhat acceptable.
And you really don't see any issues with 50-60% return runs? That's just trash returns and robbery.

Any why must it be that low? What's your issue with increasing it to 90+%?

I think he meant 9-12k for atrox. 1 ped loss per mob x 3000 times, I.e. 75 % return over a relatively long time.

I'm more conservative and would say 15-20k ped bank roll to hunt atrox without risk of going broke/be forced to sellstuff before hitting those multis.
 
I think he meant 9-12k for atrox. 1 ped loss per mob x 3000 times, I.e. 75 % return over a relatively long time.

I'm more conservative and would say 15-20k ped bank roll to hunt atrox without risk of going broke/be forced to sellstuff before hitting those multis.

Listen to yourself, 2000$!!!!
To hunt a junk mob like atrox!?!?

Which sane person would do that? Apart from die hard gamblers?

If this is the case, how on earth will you ever attract new players?
How can entropia ever get big?

2000$ needed to play a simple repetitive game??

How many idiots like us are willing to shove in that amount of cash with a near 100% loss guaranteed??
 
2000$ needed to play a simple repetitive game??

How many idiots like us are willing to shove in that amount of cash with a near 100% loss guaranteed??

well, i did shove 1.200$ into Square-Enix account for 5 years of FFXI. Sure it was a garantueed loss, but the game was fun and ofc i could play it 24/7 :D Doing Endgame was included in that price ofc :D
 
9000 to 12000 PED for 1 PED mob, that's just far too much. 2000 to 3000 would be somewhat acceptable.
And you really don't see any issues with 50-60% return runs? That's just trash returns and robbery.

Any why must it be that low? What's your issue with increasing it to 90+%?

Okay, just to keep my comment short and not rant. I have had 55% returns on a few runs. Overall I'm still over 100%. Hope that's food for thought. You can't base 1 hunt and say the return is 50%. You need far more looting instances to sustain and level out. The more the better, and you won't always get 50%, the off sets can be 200% returned from 1 hof.
 
I think he meant 9-12k for atrox. 1 ped loss per mob x 3000 times, I.e. 75 % return over a relatively long time.

I'm more conservative and would say 15-20k ped bank roll to hunt atrox without risk of going broke/be forced to sellstuff before hitting those multis.

The more bankroll the better. It all evens out eventually, the issue is larger HP mobs have larger deficit thresholds. Many people can't or don't know how to survive them and believe the games rigged for them to always loss. Not true!
 
Listen to yourself, 2000$!!!!
To hunt a junk mob like atrox!?!?

Which sane person would do that? Apart from die hard gamblers?

If this is the case, how on earth will you ever attract new players?
How can entropia ever get big?

2000$ needed to play a simple repetitive game??

How many idiots like us are willing to shove in that amount of cash with a near 100% loss guaranteed??

It will be pure loss to the one who doesn't understand this mechanic. But who says having 20K and grinding atrox would deliver a guarantee loss? If you were to ask me, would I deposit £2000 to be able to always on most occasions break even, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If you can survive the deficit which is always different per mob and get past the bad loot cycle, the ped loss reverses. Jumping mobs may be detrimental to recovering the losses on a prior mob, as you have filled that mob and not the new one. This is why I am a very big advocate to grinding one mob or similar creatures.
 
Okay, just to keep my comment short and not rant. I have had 55% returns on a few runs. Overall I'm still over 100%. Hope that's food for thought. You can't base 1 hunt and say the return is 50%. You need far more looting instances to sustain and level out. The more the better, and you won't always get 50%, the off sets can be 200% returned from 1 hof.

Overall over 100%, lucky you. Over the past 2 years i'm 444k PED cycled down the road and at 92,99% TT-return.
305k PED crafting with 94,33% TT-return.
65k PED mining with 86,57% TT-return.
74k PED hunting with 93,12% TT-return.
Just so you know i'm not a smalltime crafter/miner/hunter.

I didn't claim the return would be 50% long term, i said the base returns need to change so that 50-80% TT-return runs no longer happen. There's a difference.
 
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Okay, just to keep my comment short and not rant. I have had 55% returns on a few runs. Overall I'm still over 100%. Hope that's food for thought. You can't base 1 hunt and say the return is 50%. You need far more looting instances to sustain and level out. The more the better, and you won't always get 50%, the off sets can be 200% returned from 1 hof.

I'm interested in how you track your runs, can you please give us some details? Like... do you convert your shrapnel mid hunt several times? I think you should stream your runs.

Normally I would say 50-60% is possible only if you convert shrapnel many times, or, you hunt less than 50 mobs or smth like that.... because the return without multipliers is 66-75%.. I am very curious how you get 50%

Med term it's not possible to get such poor returns... and yes, it would be robbery :D
 
74k PED hunting with 93,12% TT-return.

That's bad yes. But so is quitting and moving mobs when the going gets tough. I personally would stay. Of course lowering the return scale would help. But MA have not made any changes to this, so that just leaves us to change.
 
That's bad yes. But so is quitting and moving mobs when the going gets tough. I personally would stay. Of course lowering the return scale would help. But MA have not made any changes to this, so that just leaves us to change.

Nah, i rather quit before it gets even worse and i learned the hard way on crafting already that it can get significantly worse.
MA hasn't made any changes yet, this thread is about getting MA to finally make some changes.
 
Listen to yourself, 2000$!!!!
To hunt a junk mob like atrox!?!?

Which sane person would do that? Apart from die hard gamblers?

If this is the case, how on earth will you ever attract new players?
How can entropia ever get big?

2000$ needed to play a simple repetitive game??

How many idiots like us are willing to shove in that amount of cash with a near 100% loss guaranteed??

Sufficiently many enough idiots like us if you peek into Ma's financial report:p I see the 20k as a deposit. Some currency loss for sure for non-US players, but not meant to lose it all, but to have a big enough buffer to withstand rough patches. And to be able to stash/stack some loot in storage when needed (maximising MU). That being said, one does not need a big budget to survive on 20-100 hp mobs. Nor high MU gear. So there is room for all kinds of players. And as Legends said, opportunity everywhere for all levels. But Mayhem is too expensive imho. It forces many players outside their bank roll. But MA wants to maximize profit, not fun for us.
 
I'm interested in how you track your runs, can you please give us some details? Like... do you convert your shrapnel mid hunt several times? I think you should stream your runs.

Normally I would say 50-60% is possible only if you convert shrapnel many times, or, you hunt less than 50 mobs or smth like that.... because the return without multipliers is 66-75%.. I am very curious how you get 50%

Med term it's not possible to get such poor returns... and yes, it would be robbery :D

I have a spreadsheet I use for hunting. It's open for all to see on my thread How To Survive 2. Take a look at it. Now 50% returns are possible they just don't last. Same setup, highest returned got 150%, lowest returned 50%. I stockpile my Shrapnel and no I used to stream but don't anymore, as my rig can no longer support it. Plus I got fed up of explaining how I was able to profit to people in Loot 1.0. Doing that in Loot 2.1 is far more complex. I'd rather not go there, it's up to people to test and try things out and collecting the necessary data to make a judgement.
 
Nah, i rather quit before it gets even worse and i learned the hard way on crafting already that it can get significantly worse.
MA hasn't made any changes yet, this thread is about getting MA to finally make some changes.

Well, I hope that gets you the desired result. I know for me the game is working as intended. Just gotta play to your strengths and make it sustainable as long as possible to see the gains even if it's slow as a snail.
 
Have a big enough buffer to withstand rough patches. And to be able to stash/stack some loot in storage when needed (maximising MU). That being said, one does not need a big budget to survive on 20-100 hp mobs. Nor high MU gear. So there is room for all kinds of players. And as Legends said, opportunity everywhere for all levels. But Mayhem is too expensive imho. It forces many players outside their bank roll. But MA wants to maximize profit, not fun for us.

My words exactly and play style +rep.
 
Well, I hope that gets you the desired result. I know for me the game is working as intended. Just gotta play to your strengths and make it sustainable as long as possible to see the gains even if it's slow as a snail.

I'm playing my strengths, that's why it's impossible for me to end in a net loss (i did already withdraw more money than i did depo), however basically drowning in 66-80% TT-return runs is not fun and very demotivating.
I mean, finding and getting some very good MU stuff just to have MA take the MU-gained PEDs away with the next crappy TT-return run, then what's the point of doing it?
And i've learned the hard way that bad return (90%) streaks can last to up to 390k clicks and very bad returns (80%) up to 5k clicks and eventually even longer than that.

I sure hope MA does something soon about it.
 
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You know i get a feeling this game is so simple even a child would understand and know what its all about within a month of playing.

I bet you its as simple as MA puts itself and its profits first once its in the + then it releases some to us of what ever is left based on whose invested what.

All we have done is made things complicated for ourselves...One dude has come along and thrown in, oh its skill /aggro - whatnot square root stamina and thats how it works to justify his losses, next persons came along and thrown in waves, another has come along and thrown in efficiency next one decay as a comfort blanket another bank roll and deficit and bla bla bla and so it goes...in all of this MA is sat in the background thinking what a bunch of fucking idiots slashing their own wrists and covering and hiding us and our ways of working while shafting themselves.

Its as simple as we profit whats left aka crumbs they get thrown to you, you get them fight among yourselves make up what ever bullshit theory its non of our concern.

and that's exactly what we are doing, 10 people get 98% return oh yes it works see loot 2.0 while the 5000 other are varied from 97 all the way down to 50% or even less.

and when numbers are not balancing out with everyone getting 90%+ its blamed on the bank roll or switching mobs or loot cycle or wave or god knows what ever bull anyone can come up with to justify this debauchery.

Do you know there is no such thing as luck or chance in this universe and in any system thats in play within this universe...You are either given it or not.

And in this system you are not you are being f***ed.

The most sad and pathetic part is that you have to come up with such lame excuses to justify it all to yourselves and then the top end players feeding this nonsense to the low end players so the pyramid stays intact hoping something gives and they withdraw and doesn't crumble before that as they will feel the brunt the most.
 
Sufficiently many enough idiots like us if you peek into Ma's financial report:p I see the 20k as a deposit. Some currency loss for sure for non-US players, but not meant to lose it all, but to have a big enough buffer to withstand rough patches. And to be able to stash/stack some loot in storage when needed (maximising MU). That being said, one does not need a big budget to survive on 20-100 hp mobs. Nor high MU gear. So there is room for all kinds of players. And as Legends said, opportunity everywhere for all levels. But Mayhem is too expensive imho. It forces many players outside their bank roll. But MA wants to maximize profit, not fun for us.

I know you wont lose the 2000$ (all at once), but the fact that you have to put in 2000$(!!) to hunt a medium sized mob is ridiculous.
And let's be honest, hunting trox is a sure way to lose all you got since they dont give any MU.
So in the end, when hunting trox, the 2000$ is bound to be lost eventually.

Sure, you can hunt 20-100 hp mobs for less money.
So, that's the incentive to skill up? To be able to hunt 20hp mobs with 300k skills?

My point is that this "game" is just ridiculously expensive to play for the content that you get.
If you don't care about the content and just want to sit at the slots, sure, EU is a great place.

I do have to add that Entropia is much more than just an endless grind and offers many other opportunities.
Let's not forget that.
But I do think that the majority is just grinding endlessly. Skills skills skills....but for what?

As I said, I don't think this is the right recipe to make Entropia grow as the amount of idiots like us is just to limited.
 
I know you wont lose the 2000$ (all at once), but the fact that you have to put in 2000$(!!) to hunt a medium sized mob is ridiculous.
And let's be honest, hunting trox is a sure way to lose all you got since they dont give any MU.
So in the end, when hunting trox, the 2000$ is bound to be lost eventually.

Sure, you can hunt 20-100 hp mobs for less money.
So, that's the incentive to skill up? To be able to hunt 20hp mobs with 300k skills?

No matter what your skills, gear, or bankroll - if you grind trox then you are missing a key component to this game - knowledge.

I agree that the game gets way too expensive (for me at least) as you scale up higher, but isn't that what should be expected in a game that uses real money?

Imagine the game were much much cheaper to play and a $2k investment made you an uber... guess what, now the majority of the player base is ubers - so then what? Everyone can't win.

With real money on the table you are always going to have people with the resources and desire to keep raising the bar. Remember, that 80k ped gun is only a couple hundred ped TT value - it's the players that are keeping the bar high, not MA. OFC MA intentionally limits access to high end gear, but ultimately it's up to us to decide what that's worth.

The responsibility lies on the player to determine what their personal endgame is and how much they want to spend. There are opportunities at all levels.

I do think the economy needs some help though, and I'm not sure what the solution is. MA knows this, and ArMatrix was a step in the right direction to help introduce some MU and inter-dependency among professions. Hopefully they are working on more solutions to bring more MU to the economy at all levels.
 
Imagine the game were much much cheaper to play and a $2k investment made you an uber... guess what, now the majority of the player base is ubers - so then what? Everyone can't win.

If the bad TT-return runs doesn't suck as hard anymore, then top gear will become very cheap? :scratch2:

Care to explain how higher min-return is going to lower the MU of top gear?
 
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