Looter Professions and your % TT returns

Legends

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Was just thinking about all this efficiency business and TT returns and so on... If we take these 2 statements together:

2017-07-14
Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics

The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to those discussions to share some hunting return statistics.

Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 10,000 PED since VU 15.15: 94.79%
Net return for accounts created in 2017, cycling at least 100 PED since VU 15.15: 94.87%
Net return for accounts created in 2017: 93.47%

These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0, and indicate that the changes implemented are working as intended. Of course, we will continue to monitor, tweak and improve moving forward.

Happy hunting!

And:

Originally Posted by Charlie|MindArk:
No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

What do we end up with? If we take the 2 largest samples above, the 10k PED sample and 100k PED sample, and average them, we get a mean of 96%. We know that the average player in 2017 is using weapons with efficiency values likely to be somewhere between 55% and 65% (because that's pretty much all there is in the game then), so let's round that to 60%.

If 0% to 100% efficiency equates to a 0-7% difference in TT returns as stated above, then extrapolating the given values, 60% efficiency equals to a 4.2% improvement to loot. If this is true, 0% efficiency weapons should be expected to yield a mean TT return of less than 92%...

I think for most of October, November and December 2019, Efficiency was actually broken and not functioning as intended, which would explain why so many hunters reported shitty returns around 91%. This isn't really the point of this post, but thought I'd mention it in passing...

Let's do some more extrapolation. If 0% to 100% efficiency equates to a 0-7% difference in TT returns as stated above by MA, and the average player in 2017 was using 60% efficiency weapons and getting a mean average TT return of 96%, then using 100% efficiency weapons all the time should yield a mean average TT return of 99% (because going from 60% to 100% efficiency would increase TT returns by another 3% (round number), according to the numbers provided).

So where does the Looter profession fit in all of this? I've seen some people stating in this forum that it is assumed the Looter profession will mean a difference of 0-7% as well going from level 0 Looter to level 100 Looter, but I think this is a false assumption, I think Looter accounts for far less than that. Because if this was true, it would mean that a brand new player would start out with a very low return rate of around 89%, using average weapons. That just seems extremely unlikely to me, you'd never dream of giving new customers the worst possible experience right at the start, that's just the worst idea possible.

So I think the Looter profession cannot be supposed to affect more than about 1% of your TT returns, and so all it will do is take you from that 99% TT returns which you would get when using 100% efficiency weapons, to 100% TT returns, and that would be the highest TT returns you could get (TT returns above 100% being impossible since Banks never give out free money, and remember MA is a Bank now).

Anyone got any evidence or anything that would refute these claims?

Legends

EDIT: I had completely forgotten that Looter professions were not introduced yet when these statements above were made but at a later date, thanks allarom for pointing that out. This obviously changes the above presumptions, for example MA could have made Looter just another integer which together with Efficiency add up to a total 7% max increase to TT loot returns...
 
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Have to show my work here...

Ok so Charlie stated that Efficiency accounts for 0-7% increase in average loot. So just doing some quick math here, every 10% of Efficiency would equal an increase in loot TT returns of 0.7%. In my example, I used 60% as the average Efficiency, so:

6*0.7= 4.2% increase in loot TT returns

From 60-100% Efficiency, there's a difference of 40%, so:

4*0.7= 2.8% increase in loot TT returns

If using 60% Efficiency weapons yields an average TT return of 96%, then:

96-4.2= 91.8% TT returns should be expected when using 0% Efficiency weapons

96+2.8= 98.8% TT returns should be expected when using 100% Efficiency weapons

--

No one really knows for sure about the effect of Looter profession on % TT returns, but assuming that average TT returns above 100% are not to be expected, how could the Looter professions be expected to effect TT returns by more than 1%???

Legends
 
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I think, you are thinking too much.

What if:

Nothing of this matter. Because if the loot isn't there. It isn't there. No matter what equip/skills uve got. You will lose.

Efficiency and skills will only mean that person X will lose/gain a BIT less/more than Y. That's it, boss.

This avg. return is in my opinion only based on the time scale, when MA is guessing it will average out over time. Not caring about the fact, that some ppl might be a bit unlucky and only play during "dry" periods.

So at the end, loot skills and efficiency does matter, coz u get WAY more loot when there is loot and you lose a bit less when there isnt.

U remember those days getting 3 globals/multis in 10 mins and those days not getting a global per 5hr hunt? Coz i do. Random? Doesnt exist.
 
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take 3 persons
person 1 has 20 lvl looter and shoots a mob 3 times with opalo
person 2 has 60 lvl looter and shoots a mob 3 times with opalo
person 3 finishes mob with big ass gun before mob reaches person 1 or person 2

now you can calculate the difference based on shrapnel that person 1 and person 2 gets

difference should be 2.8% - this should explain it all to you
 
take 3 persons
person 1 has 20 lvl looter and shoots a mob 3 times with opalo
person 2 has 60 lvl looter and shoots a mob 3 times with opalo
person 3 finishes mob with big ass gun before mob reaches person 1 or person 2

now you can calculate the difference based on shrapnel that person 1 and person 2 gets

difference should be 2.8% - this should explain it all to you

Yeah I guess it can be tested, didn't really think of that... Just have to make sure no buffs are active that could affect the results and don't count the misses. Also, double shrap loots will mess things up so would have to just keep trying until neither hunter 1 or 2 gets 2 stacks of Shrap...
 
Yeah I guess it can be tested, didn't really think of that... Just have to make sure no buffs are active that could affect the results and don't count the misses. Also, double shrap loots will mess things up so would have to just keep trying until neither hunter 1 or 2 gets 2 stacks of Shrap...

It has been tested numerous times already, by me and many other ppl. just dig in the forum
 
Im LV 60 looter and hunt with a FEN weapon with 84.3 eff, 3.540dpp and 111dps. Loot has been shit lately with 2hrs between globals frequently. It`s extremly volatile, no stability at all with swings from 60% to 100+. I cant ever recalling having 3 profit runs in a row for several years.

I`m not expecting to print money, but no game should cost 100bux to play for 1 day.
 
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Well, if it was me, I′d implement l00ter level with respect to each mob hunted. I′d also implement l00ter level as a malus, not a bonus. You seem to presume, l00ter level should go on top... needn′t be the case, though.

:dunno:

So, l00ting within your l00ter level range would give you maximum l00t as is warranted. Would take care of the beginners, if they′re shooting beginner mobs, no deductions. If you′re l00ter level 10 and shooting Prots (you may be able to tackle those, depending on armor and weapon used), you′d have to expect a few percent less than your maximum l00t percentage would be (computation would take away from l00t in case, l00ter level requirement is not met for this particular mob).
 
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It has been tested numerous times already, by me and many other ppl. just dig in the forum

So then, a level 100 looter using 100% Efficiency will get 106% TT returns???
 
Well, if it was me, I′d implement l00ter level with respect to each mob hunted. I′d also implement l00ter level as a malus, not a bonus. You seem to presume, l00ter level should go on top... needn′t be the case, though.

:dunno:

So, l00ting within your l00ter level range would give you maximum l00t as is warranted. Would take care of the beginners, if they′re shooting beginner mobs, no deductions. If you′re l00ter level 10 and shooting Prots (you may be able to tackle those, depending on armor and weapon used), you′d have to expect a few percent less than your maximum l00t percentage would be (computation would take away from l00t in case, l00ter level requirement is not met for this particular mob).

i'm a bit torn on this one, on one hand it would make sense that you need a certain looter level, however, one the other hand it would be pretty bad in regards to team hunting, where you generally would go for mobs which are higher level than you are.

And also, what's with those shared L1119 zombie kong, bad return/penalty for everyone because nobody is looter level 1119+? xD

long term tt-return should be same for everyone, regardless of efficiency or looter level. Looter level however should impact loot composition to a small degree.
 
So then, a level 100 looter using 100% Efficiency will get 106% TT returns???

Why?

Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%

This one was stated before looter level introduced. and we do not know how high efficiency was the "average". if ~65% (can be much higher since top grinders with high eff. alone grind more than all others combined) then it would be +2.45% in case of 100% effciency. In total it would yeld 99.74%
 
I think, you are thinking too much.

What if:

Nothing of this matter. Because if the loot isn't there. It isn't there. No matter what equip/skills uve got. You will lose.

Efficiency and skills will only mean that person X will lose/gain a BIT less/more than Y. That's it, boss.

This avg. return is in my opinion only based on the time scale, when MA is guessing it will average out over time. Not caring about the fact, that some ppl might be a bit unlucky and only play during "dry" periods.

So at the end, loot skills and efficiency does matter, coz u get WAY more loot when there is loot and you lose a bit less when there isnt.

U remember those days getting 3 globals/multis in 10 mins and those days not getting a global per 5hr hunt? Coz i do. Random? Doesnt exist.

Some parts correct it is true that someone with 100 looter and 100 efficiency can get 90% for a month. It's pretty random and these 2 things don't really help that much. Not only that efficiency does't give 7% more loot the wording is very tricky. It doesn't work that way at all!

Furthermore your statement on you will get more loot with higher efficiency during good loot times is completely false! You get way less loot during good times because you are efficient :laugh:. This is why the system doesn't work

As the main factor on how loot distribution actually works is PED spent. If loot is good the lower efficiency you have and PED you put into a mob will generate way bigger HOFs and multipliers. Ever have a mob evade 3 hits in a row then it crits you so you have to heal then it regenerates some and you kill it and get a big HOF? Of course you do because you spent more on that mob so you got more back from a big multiplier. ( the true source of good returns )

This is why some people overamp and use lower efficiency items because it gives you way higher returns during good loot periods.

Example is if someone with 100 looter and 100 efficiency with a bunch of buffs kill a mob that is a big multiplier they never miss, crit a few times and get a HOF of say 1,000

Then someone with zero looter and 7% efficiency kill that very same mob with a smaller weapon and no buffs. They miss a few times, the mob regenerates some. This person will get 10k HOF. It is always a way way bigger payout for this set up and avatar. Which is why we see those odd ball noob HOFs.

Which means it's completely all luck.... Unless you can still read loot waves then it isn't.


The takeaway is looter and efficiency really have very little to do with your returns. (obviously this is bad) The main factor is timing and PED spent on a mob that has a high multiplier during good loot periods.

If you can time the loot wave or if you think you know this mob is the one. You should switch to a very expensive high decay item to load PED into the mob for a big payout. (what does this sound like)

We need a new system without these loot waves. Same old song.... nothing has really changed.
 
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So I think the Looter profession cannot be supposed to affect more than about 1% of your TT returns, and so all it will do is take you from that 99% TT returns which you would get when using 100% efficiency weapons, to 100% TT returns, and that would be the highest TT returns you could get (TT returns above 100% being impossible since Banks never give out free money, and remember MA is a Bank now). Anyone got any evidence or anything that would refute these claims?

No player said that looter profession affected returns, the builders of this game did, your trying to rationalise how their own statement does not compute, because of posts being made on forums. So either the player is wrong or the manufacturer is wrong? I know which one I'd pick.

I have recently had several runs in the green, overall my log is still over 100% TT returns. Check out my hunting log if you want evidence. Now if looter skill doesn't affect TT returns based on your statement, then that's fine, so maybe it affects the loot composition as well? Either way the looter skill whichever way you take it is invaluable imo.

Whoever says 100% TT returns isn't possible doesn't know much about the mechanics of this game.
 
So taxed hunting is an additional 4% less loot or who pays for it?
 
And now some theories.... :D :silly2:
Looking at skills that are included in Looter prof stand and it will tell you something.
Why are there skills that will be almost as hard (or more exactly impossible) to max out
similar to attributes? Why are there skills included that we don't even gain when doing the
action related to those prof stands?
Imo these skills in those prof stands help out with probability to loot certain stuff, and since
some skills and attributes are more or less impossible to max out, no one can ever be maxed out.
Skills impact used to be caped at 10k, MA removed that cap for prof stands, but I doubt
it is removed for each individual skill when it comes to what they do more than having
a influence in prof stands. We still see some of that old cap in skill UI.
As GradenFoss mentioned, I doubt we get any bonus or extra by getting better, imo we
just get less unefficient when it comes to return or what we might get in loot.
 
Why?



This one was stated before looter level introduced. and we do not know how high efficiency was the "average". if ~65% (can be much higher since top grinders with high eff. alone grind more than all others combined) then it would be +2.45% in case of 100% effciency. In total it would yeld 99.74%

Oh I'd forgotten Looter professions came later... my bad. That really changes things.
 
i'm a bit torn on this one, on one hand it would make sense that you need a certain looter level, however, one the other hand it would be pretty bad in regards to team hunting, where you generally would go for mobs which are higher level than you are.

And also, what's with those shared L1119 zombie kong, bad return/penalty for everyone because nobody is looter level 1119+? xD

Nice observations... :yup:

My personal observation is that shooting a mob and shooting the shared version of a mob results in different l00t behaviour. So, handling shared mobs with respect to l00ter skills differently, seems quite possible.

Hunting in team, shared or not, would be a question, whether the deduction is subtractive or fraction-wise... and when it is applied. The final split of l00t for damage inflicted should occur after l00ter skills. Well... quite some possibilities here... plus, raises the question for a team, whether you get different l00t through split vs. leader l00ting (which shouldn′t be the case, but what do you know).

Only being theorizing. :)
 
So either the player is wrong or the manufacturer is wrong? I know which one I'd pick.

hopefully the player, trusting the manufacturer is usually a bad idea. Bugs may have snuck during the coding and depending on extrensive the testing is, the devs may not have realized those bugs. The players however will, because they usually spend a lot more time with testing and stuff.

It can be minor bugs, like getting stuck somewhere, or even major bugs, like the ones that happened with crafting during loot 2.0.

always take manufacturer statements with a grain of salt.
 
Some parts correct it is true that someone with 100 looter and 100 efficiency can get 90% for a month. It's pretty random and these 2 things don't really help that much. Not only that efficiency does't give 7% more loot the wording is very tricky. It doesn't work that way at all!

Furthermore your statement on you will get more loot with higher efficiency during good loot times is completely false! You get way less loot during good times because you are efficient :laugh:. This is why the system doesn't work

As the main factor on how loot distribution actually works is PED spent. If loot is good the lower efficiency you have and PED you put into a mob will generate way bigger HOFs and multipliers. Ever have a mob evade 3 hits in a row then it crits you so you have to heal then it regenerates some and you kill it and get a big HOF? Of course you do because you spent more on that mob so you got more back from a big multiplier. ( the true source of good returns )

This is why some people overamp and use lower efficiency items because it gives you way higher returns during good loot periods.

Example is if someone with 100 looter and 100 efficiency with a bunch of buffs kill a mob that is a big multiplier they never miss, crit a few times and get a HOF of say 1,000

Then someone with zero looter and 7% efficiency kill that very same mob with a smaller weapon and no buffs. They miss a few times, the mob regenerates some. This person will get 10k HOF. It is always a way way bigger payout for this set up and avatar. Which is why we see those odd ball noob HOFs.

Which means it's completely all luck.... Unless you can still read loot waves then it isn't.


The takeaway is looter and efficiency really have very little to do with your returns. (obviously this is bad) The main factor is timing and PED spent on a mob that has a high multiplier during good loot periods.

If you can time the loot wave or if you think you know this mob is the one. You should switch to a very expensive high decay item to load PED into the mob for a big payout. (what does this sound like)

the thing with this is that the person who always uses low effi guns who gets the big payout lost WAY more before he got it. same with the person with high effi lost way less.
lets assume someone needs 1 ped to kill a mob and gets 1 time a 100 ped global per 1000 kills.
then the guy who needs 2 ped to kill same mob can only kill 500 of them. so he might not get the global at all. or he is spending twice as much to kill 1000 mobs to then get a twice as big global. in the end its the same. 95% (made up number) is 95%. the only thing you can do to abuse this insanely bad loot algorithm is quite easy though. if you got a lot of time and use a high efficieny weapon on the same mob you will soon start to recognize when a good loot wave starts. if that happens, immediately take out the low effi gun to abuse the higher return. when it gets bad again switch to high effi until the good wave starts again. rinse and repeat. you lose less during bad periods and win more during good ones. if you hunt 8 hours a day for every day of the week this shouldnt be too hard to do. and getting more than 100% tt return shouldnt be too hard as well with it.
 
the thing with this is that the person who always uses low effi guns who gets the big payout lost WAY more before he got it. same with the person with high effi lost way less.
lets assume someone needs 1 ped to kill a mob and gets 1 time a 100 ped global per 1000 kills.
then the guy who needs 2 ped to kill same mob can only kill 500 of them. so he might not get the global at all. or he is spending twice as much to kill 1000 mobs to then get a twice as big global. in the end its the same. 95% (made up number) is 95%. the only thing you can do to abuse this insanely bad loot algorithm is quite easy though. if you got a lot of time and use a high efficieny weapon on the same mob you will soon start to recognize when a good loot wave starts. if that happens, immediately take out the low effi gun to abuse the higher return. when it gets bad again switch to high effi until the good wave starts again. rinse and repeat. you lose less during bad periods and win more during good ones. if you hunt 8 hours a day for every day of the week this shouldnt be too hard to do. and getting more than 100% tt return shouldnt be too hard as well with it.

Notice
[*] Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.

Originally Posted Here

This is from the VU 15.15 release notes...

Notice that 'excessive time and cost to kill' is mentioned here. So just don't go too far with it lol
 
the thing with this is that the person who always uses low effi guns who gets the big payout lost WAY more before he got it. same with the person with high effi lost way less.

Well duh, that is why you use efficient weapons and watch EL to predict the loot wave then switch to lower efficiency to score the HOF. It's still loot wave hunting!! Why would you use a low Efficiency weapon all the time?

So the person who uses the lower Efficiency gun wins if he is using it at the right time. He breaks the bank :laugh:

This system is still all about timing and has nothing to do with looter and high efficiency.


This is from the VU 15.15 release notes...

Notice that 'excessive time and cost to kill' is mentioned here. So just don't go too far with it lol

What is too far? Personally I think this changed and even noticed that in recent test on Molisk with overamping to get an UL item. If this was still true I shouldn't of gotten an UL armor but I did. This past week I started to try and time loot waves ( since grinding lots of mobs is bad )

I have killed a lot of Molisk so when I thought the loot was good i started with my Bukins Blade with Melee IV amp. I would attack several times with this then finish with my Corrosive 8. The small molisk I killed with this method gave me UL Nemesis foot. If I didn't overamp the Ped value of the molisk would of been too low to get an item. (Since it wasn't a global) So being inefficient gave me a nice +TT UL item. I just happened to time it right.

I am just annoyed with myself that I bought into this new system that Looter and Efficiency help so you can grind more and thought this new system helps people that love to play the game and grind. When in reality it is still the same as it was before. Just harder to see loot waves.

The only people that know exactly what Looter and Efficiency do is the people that coded it. They aren't going to tell us that though.

Please understand how something is stated to work and real mechanics behind it are totally different things here in Entropia. This is why we test stuff and then ask for better from MA.
 
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This is a compilation of all that matters minus all the copy-paste and rhetorics. Links lead to the corresponding threads in the AMA section.

What we may see soon


What is not a priority but not off the boards either


What is not in plans



Considered features and long term goals

  • Overhaul and revitalize PVP
    "Our long term goal is to overhaul and revitalize PVP in Entropia Universe. The changes implemented in Loot 2.0 have opened up the available design space for PVP specific changes, and we look forward to taking advantage of that. However, engagement with PVP has traditionally been relatively low, so it is not currently at the top of our priority list."​
  • Upgrades for Starter Pack items
  • Separate team/shared ATH/HOF from individual ATH/HOF
  • Future of pets [SUP]new[/SUP]
    "Pets are a fun part of Entropia Universe but we don’t want it to be mandatory for every player to have one, therefore pet-based buffs and other benefits need to be properly balanced. Pets and taming are not at the top of our current priority list, but we do plan to implement adjustments and new features in the medium-term."​
  • Copy-pasting links on auction to search [SUP]new[/SUP]
    "This is a good suggestion and something we plan to include in a more general update to the auction interface. "​
  • More spaceships [SUP]new[/SUP]
    "We do plan to ultimately add space ships within different classes and with additional functionality, but that would be part of a larger Space release."​
  • Crafting system that doesn't require to be near a terminal [SUP]new[/SUP]


State of affairs


Mechanics


some few answers hinted at above...
 
I think data we rely on is either old and outdated or not complete:

- returns stats: 2.5years old - I would say unreliable as MA could silently decrease loot returns over time. Fresh status pls.

- eff info: they said it's 0-7% but they never said it's linear scale, it doesn't have to be. I may be setup in a way that you gain the most at the bottom and anybody using standard 55-60eff already have 90% of eff benefits. So there is little to gain by increasing eff and you only get penalty for using awful eff guns.

- looter info: same thing as eff info. They only said it affects loot but never said how. It may work as evade skill. You have to have some minimum skill to evade and after some skill level you won't get more benefits. Looter may work same way, as penalty for hunting too high too fast rather than extra loot return for high levels.


From my personal experience:

- loot was good after 2.0 introduction - I was getting 96.5% consistently. Later it dropped to consistent 93% as other ppl also reported. I check returns once a week and hunt a lot so my returns are consistently 93%+-1% - so I have good averaging. My guess here is that it was too much for MA to keep such high returns so they lowered it silently. They mentioned that decreasing armor cost increased usage so maybe they counted on same effect on hunting but had to roll back when volume didn't increase. Fresh stats would be helpful here to prove and disprove that.

- from ppl hunting high eff weapons and still reporting poor loot my guess would be - MA killed eco importance as they killed durability importance of armor. Durability used to matter a lot but after 2.0 all is pretty much flat around 20HP/pec - high durability L armors are only slightly better, so little that I would not pay more than 101% for that extra durability. Looking at trend of making that game cheaper for clueless ppl, I would not be surprised if most return gains from eff resided in 0-50eff range as more of penalty for super low eco rather than extra gain for ultra high eff.

- I think what matters the most now is proper mob selection - you need to pick something with high avg MU, MU from infrequent drops better as it discourages less patient competition keeping MU high. After that high dpp matter the most. The way to profit seems to be chasing high MU infrequent drops. You get more loot events for same PED input with higher DPP so long term higher avg MU per PED spend. High eff seems like cherry on the cake, you maybe get 0.5% more in TT returns over long time. If you hunt with 10DPS weapon then it's probably not worth chasing, but if you hunt with 100DPS then it adds up fast justifying high weapon price.
 
I think what matters the most now is proper mob selection - you need to pick something with high avg MU, MU from infrequent drops better as it discourages less patient competition keeping MU high. After that high dpp matter the most. The way to profit seems to be chasing high MU infrequent drops. You get more loot events for same PED input with higher DPP so long term higher avg MU per PED spend. High eff seems like cherry on the cake, you maybe get 0.5% more in TT returns over long time. If you hunt with 10DPS weapon then it's probably not worth chasing, but if you hunt with 100DPS then it adds up fast justifying high weapon price.

You make a lot of valid points. Looter skills working like evade does against mob L rating, I think is a good step forward, but not saying it's the truth. High avg mark up from mobs. High DPP. All yes. Acquiring higher efficiency. Yes. What I'd like to lastly say is, don't treat DPP with Efficiency, they are two seperate parameters. Once you get over that in your head , your good. I'm sorry but I do recall Messi stating that he is now exclusively hunting with his shortblade. I wonder why?
 
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I think data we rely on is either old and outdated or not complete:

- eff info: they said it's 0-7% but they never said it's linear scale, it doesn't have to be.

The data isn't complete. 0-7% on what? This is the info we don't know and if "ANYONE" thinks that Efficiency and Looter increase the amount of loot you get by 0-7% they are naive, gullible and wrong.

Let me paint a pretty picture on marketing and the legality of it. My friend who is a bodybuilder was paid by a diet company to get out of shape and overweight. Then using their product he lost 60 pounds in 30 days!!! Miraculous this product is!! They legally can say their product helped him achieve that. They can market it that way! Is it honest and true? No, a big fat NO!!!!

Does efficiency increase the value of your loot by 0-7% ? No
Does looter increase the value of your loot by 0-7%? No
Are these things being presented in a way that they can legally say they do? Yes

Holy crap.... It isn't complicated. This is why I made that thread on my MA tracked returns. We need a better system. One that can be backed up and proven with real data. Not this artificial fake marketing being presented to us much like the diet company that helped my friend lose 60 pounds. :eyecrazy:

I feel like I am taking crazy pills here.....


All I want is for some better improvements that helps this game grow and continue to improve. I would love to see the population of this game grow significantly and for every planet to be considered active.
 
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Was just thinking about all this efficiency business and TT returns and so on... If we take these 2 statements together:



And:



What do we end up with? If we take the 2 largest samples above, the 10k PED sample and 100k PED sample, and average them, we get a mean of 96%. We know that the average player in 2017 is using weapons with efficiency values likely to be somewhere between 55% and 65% (because that's pretty much all there is in the game then), so let's round that to 60%.

If 0% to 100% efficiency equates to a 0-7% difference in TT returns as stated above, then extrapolating the given values, 60% efficiency equals to a 4.2% improvement to loot. If this is true, 0% efficiency weapons should be expected to yield a mean TT return of less than 92%...

I think for most of October, November and December 2019, Efficiency was actually broken and not functioning as intended, which would explain why so many hunters reported shitty returns around 91%. This isn't really the point of this post, but thought I'd mention it in passing...

Let's do some more extrapolation. If 0% to 100% efficiency equates to a 0-7% difference in TT returns as stated above by MA, and the average player in 2017 was using 60% efficiency weapons and getting a mean average TT return of 96%, then using 100% efficiency weapons all the time should yield a mean average TT return of 99% (because going from 60% to 100% efficiency would increase TT returns by another 3% (round number), according to the numbers provided).

So where does the Looter profession fit in all of this? I've seen some people stating in this forum that it is assumed the Looter profession will mean a difference of 0-7% as well going from level 0 Looter to level 100 Looter, but I think this is a false assumption, I think Looter accounts for far less than that. Because if this was true, it would mean that a brand new player would start out with a very low return rate of around 89%, using average weapons. That just seems extremely unlikely to me, you'd never dream of giving new customers the worst possible experience right at the start, that's just the worst idea possible.

So I think the Looter profession cannot be supposed to affect more than about 1% of your TT returns, and so all it will do is take you from that 99% TT returns which you would get when using 100% efficiency weapons, to 100% TT returns, and that would be the highest TT returns you could get (TT returns above 100% being impossible since Banks never give out free money, and remember MA is a Bank now).

Anyone got any evidence or anything that would refute these claims?

Legends

I think the presumption that looter profession has an absolute impact on statistic longterm tt revenue does not have to be true to make it usefull. It could very well be a relativ impact compared to other hunters in the local region giving you an edge on more immediate returns, eg. improving your shortterm return to have a more steady loot return experience.
From my experience hunting lowlevel mobs i used to be able to hit 2 globals in short succession when i got lucky sometimes but as looter profession got higher i have seen global chains for 3 and even 4/5 globals in quick sucession giving me an immediate balancing effect on peds cycled.
On the other side it may lead to less big hofs due to faster immediate returns.

Furthermore there the the possibility that looter profession and efficincy could give higher longterm tt returns but that they are hardcapped, allowing to improve either way to up to 99% but a person with high looter profession could reach it even with a lower efficincy weapon.
 
Added to OP because I think this important.

EDIT: I had completely forgotten that Looter professions were not introduced yet when these statements above were made but at a later date, thanks allarom for pointing that out. This obviously changes the above presumptions, for example MA could have made Looter just another integer which together with Efficiency add up to a total 7% max increase to TT loot returns..
 
Utter nonsense as always

Is this why all playing with high eff make 1-2 page posts about how bad loot is? No, you've never played with it, you can't make judgement. Hell, your one statement is literally 'I know more than the developer of a game about the mechanics they explained' and you don't even have the tools to test it.
 
Is this why all playing with high eff make 1-2 page posts about how bad loot is? No, you've never played with it, you can't make judgement. Hell, your one statement is literally 'I know more than the developer of a game about the mechanics they explained' and you don't even have the tools to test it.

At some point in your PCF stay I hope you might make a meaningful post or help the community. Until then we wait.
 
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