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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Abomb View Post
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    20 PED for Free in a day for a lot of time invested was nothing and this is why it was in the game. It didn't bleed PED out of the economy but it stimulated it. This allowed player to get started and decide to invest money into the game on starter packs, gear and ammo.

    My memory isn't foggy I bought 4 AUDs with sweat alone before I bought a Gold Starter pack. Obviously since then I deposited many more times into the game and decided it was really a unique adventure that was ahead. Why wouldn't you want NEW players to have a chance to "try" this wonderful game like we had? It only makes sense so this game can grow
    You are definitely missing a part of the puzzle here, you are not grasping something, that's for sure... You need to scale it in your head to see if it works in application. What if all of a sudden it's possible to make 20-30 PED per day for free by just having a computer running (automated sweating let's say). There are many countries where people don't even make that. Let's say you now have hundreds of new accounts being created to do this 24 hours/day, making about 60 PED/day.

    In 10 days, there's 600 PED there, that's $60 USD! in 100 days, that's $600 USD! They withdraw all that money of course... Where's it going to come from? You think MindArk is going to fund that?

    This is a very serious question, I'm not putting down your good intentions, I just want you to think real hard about this. Where's that money going to come from?

    Now all of a sudden something that was intended as a generous gesture towards the playerbase has become abused and taken advantage of. These are serious issues and questions that MindArk faces with everything they implement. Even giving away 2 PED/day is a serious concern when you scale it up times 1000 accounts... No CEO or company manager wakes up in the morning asking "Let's see, who to give $200 to today for free?"

    This is why MA gives out Uni Ammo that you can't TT or trade, all you can do is use it. Or a pet like WolperTinger. There is no TT value, it's value is not backed by MA because if you TT it you get nothing. Money has to come from another player. Scaled 1,000 times, it's not really a problem.

    MA clearly doesn't object to giving away free play, what they will object to is giving away free PED, and I support that.
    Last edited by Legends; 01-28-2020 at 13:34.
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  2. #12
    Old Alpha Sionkiewicz's Avatar
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    This is NOT a "Free Game To Play" game. This is a MMO with a Real Cash Economy.

    Within Entropia there are options to gain funds by expending lots of effort on extremely tedious tasks with an aim at getting you bored and have you put money into the game and play with all the cool items faster. The intention is never to have these "Free" things become a way to play the game long term (but many have, I know). Many other MMOs do this presently and the model works well for them.

    Making it easier for new players to earn free cash is really not the right answer. You will get more free players sucking funds from the game. MA has gone thru that and we now have the safeguards in place to ensure the Economy can survive any expenditures to free players.

    Maybe making options for new players with little funds to invest in the game and get them some interest money may be a better option. Something that will encourage them to bring new money into the game?
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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    Don't talk to me about 15-20 PED/day man, that's just horse manure, you are not remembering correctly. And if you are, I'm glad it has changed. ...
    Sorry, but I truly LOL-ed at the not remembering correctly bit. Then again, even virtual realities can be different for different people, I guess. Anyway, for a long time my benchmark was at about 4 peds per hour. I compared sweating at Nea's to walking backwards with combibo young and getting the odd fruit along with it, sometimes went 100% looking for fruit/stones etc. For a time you could spot fruit/stones whilst driving, so that boosted finds per hour, but then MA took it away again. I did have a few "unusual methods" for sweating as well, so my average may have been higher than other people, but even so, 3 hours of free stuff was enough to fund an hour or more of other more daring stuff, such as, OMG, argos, where I might be lucky but could also be unlucky and lose 15 peds on a run!
    Ahh, the life of low-scale play! Still, it kept me in EU and if I now hunt at 300 peds an hour and an expected loss of maybe 20 peds as normal, rather than rare, that is actually limited by MA not enabling me to go faster in that particular activity. Unless of course, MA takes 50 peds per hour off me (as other threads are complaining about returns right now), in which case I return to carabok, but that's a different story--ish.

    Yes, it was players paying mu for those heady times back then, but it wasn't charity! It was people wanting to get on faster with other activities, instead of just doing higher turnover stuff for 1 hour in 5, or whatever.

    If MA has to pay noobs with universal ammo in any new moves today, then it means the economy is not able to support the low end like it used to. And yet we have many more higher level players now. How does that make sense? It seems to me there's a big drought across a large spread of mid-level play. It seems to be more and more of a secret where mu comes from these days - rare returns from activities which are hidden from common knowledge. Now I know there are niches in this game, but how is even a mid-level player supposed to know about them, let alone people trying out the game and considering whether to stay?

    THAT is a crucial point, in my opinion. It is no longer "Skill up and better mu will be yours." It's "Find the secret, but you won't, and then things might work for you." That is not much of an incentive.

    I am trying to stay on topic, by the way - how does MA now attract and keep new players to a point where lots decide to deposit? Maybe part of the pressure that makes it hard for MA to be 'generous' is that MA is squeezing the middle too much. How can EU be an inspiring, aspiring place again?

    edit: answer to further replies... "This is why MA gives out Uni Ammo that you can't TT or trade, all you can do is use it." Yes, but that also has a value of 90% when considering turnover back to tt returns. I think it is more likely that the move means avatars must spend time in game, so creating alts is not a high-speed approach to grabbing and withdrawing free stuff.

    Actually, maybe the secrets I mention above are more relevant that I thought. It has always seemed to me to be keeping planets like Cyrene semi-dead, because the community actually gets to a point of wanting to be rude rather than have new people discovering stuff and competing for a niche. Sometimes the problem is not where it appears to be.....
    Last edited by jetsina; 01-28-2020 at 13:47.

  4. #14
    Alpha The Abomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    You are definitely missing a part of the puzzle here, you are not grasping something, that's for sure... You need to scale it in your head to see if it works in application. What if all of a sudden it's possible to make 20-30 PED per day for free by just having a computer running (automated sweating let's say). There are many countries where people don't even make that. Let's say you now have hundreds of new accounts being created to do this 24 hours/day, making about 60 PED/day.

    In 10 days, there's 600 PED there, that's $60 USD! in 100 days, that's $600 USD! They withdraw all that money of course... Where's it going to come from? You think MindArk is going to fund that?

    This is a very serious question, I'm not putting down your good intentions, I just want you to think real hard about this. Where's that money going to come from?

    First, multiple accounts should be getting banded so it's not part of the equation.

    Second, I never said a sweater should make 20 ped a day

    The real money maker was fruit walking for stones and fruit which is now a dead market. Agree? Good now lets move on.

    I am not missing any part of the puzzle you have tunnel vision without taking a birds eye view of a FREE to play system that works and the money it generates. By attracting more potential buyers of micro transactions. It increases the player base of spenders in games that is designed to spend and cycle PED.

    Pretty sure MA wanted a FREE to play system in place like it did in the past that generated grinders and skillers like myself who deposit. If it wasn't there, they would of missed out on gaining new depositors. This is the FREE to play model to get people into the actual game and have a Web Shop where the money is made. FREE to play gaming is the most lucrative part of the gaming industry now. You want a good game to get into for FREE then love it enough to deposit. That is how they make millions.

    Also you act like when someone withdraws money that is bad, when it is essential for this game and economy's growth. You need people making money in this game to label it a Real Cash Economy. If there are no winners and no one makes a profit, it isn't an economy. Are we clear on that? Never is it a bad thing when a player did well and withdrew money! This is a winner and you could be a winner too! That is why people start this game! Lets not forget that

    If no one wins then it isn't a game. Yikes Let restore the FREE to play model to it's previous successful state. Again not asking to print PED just asking for a decent model that every FREE to play game needs to get players here in the first place (to spend money).
    Last edited by The Abomb; 01-28-2020 at 14:00.
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  5. #15
    Old Alpha theProphet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Abomb View Post
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    Why wouldn't you want NEW players to have a chance to "try" this wonderful game like we had? It only makes sense so this game can grow
    this game did grow because some people simply deposited, instead of wasting their precious lifetime chasing for a few PECs here and there - even as a noob in 2005.

    just my
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  6. #16
    Ok, a new solution - or at least I think it's new that it is written here.

    Noobs and others can do free activities which give types of limited amps that increase tt returns by 10% (or rather, count as an approximate 10% on the cost to kill, and in return, improve the returns for a limited amount of spend!).

    This means 90% or so real peds must still be turned over - universal ammo at the moment can be a very high percentage of cost right now, so is not good in that sense. This move would stop the current ammo situation with a high conversion rate to pedcard peds, but would enable a certain amount of "free" play.
    Sure, people could be given a few peds by MA the old way as well, but the daily free playstyle would not get out of hand and cost MA loads. At the same time, players could do normalish activities with the amps, but only at slow speed. If they like what they see, noobs should depo to hunt higher mobs, etc.

  7. #17
    Old Alpha Legends's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Abomb View Post
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    There are tons of players and depositors that this game misses out on because of an outdated FREE to play model. If a player leaves before they feel like it is a game they want to stay in and invest. That is a miss. This is a very important aspect of this games growth and how this game is marketed. It needs to be addressed and fixed so new players have the chance we all did when we joined this great game.
    ...

    If a new player joins to check out Entropia now there isn't anything in place for them to stay like I did when I started. If it looks like it's just a loss then why are they ever going to commit on that first deposit or starter pack? Obviously this game needs a FREE to play label for other reasons as well. However how can a new player stay when sweat is 1ped per 1k and Fruit is what 4ped?

    The system doesn't work anymore. It's been neglected and it is REQUIRED for this games growth and getting players to stick around and join in the adventure for many years to come.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Abomb View Post
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    I am not missing any part of the puzzle you have tunnel vision without taking a birds eye view of a FREE to play system that works and the money it generates. By attracting more potential buyers of micro transactions. It increases the player base of spenders in games that is designed to spend and cycle PED.

    Pretty sure MA wanted a FREE to play system in place like it did in the past that generated grinders and skillers like myself who deposit. If it wasn't there, they would of missed out on gaining new depositors. This is the FREE to play model to get people into the actual game and have a Web Shop where the money is made. FREE to play gaming is the most lucrative part of the gaming industry now. You want a good game to get into for FREE then love it enough to deposit. That is how they make millions.

    I strongly disagree... The game is still free to play when you start out, it's still possible, easier then ever before even.

    You know, when I started playing Entropia, we didn't have Half-moon Cove or Camp Icarus, it was a much steeper curve and it was much more expensive to actually play at the beginning compared to today.

    I just visited Orthos Oil field the other day and OMG, are you freakin' kidding me!? L2-L3 Drones!? Wow! I could hunt these guys all day long over there for free! I hunted them for like 30 minutes and was just getting Rubio after Rubio non-stop.

    Anyone joining the game today has WAY more options and opportunity then there ever was before. And can play a LOT longer with a LOT less money than ever before.

    There is no way that anyone can refute that. If you do, you just have no clue, step out of your little bubble and go hunt the punies with the newbies at Camp Icarus for an hour and see how much that costs, then we can talk.

    I'm serious, go to Camp Icarus, like I did the other day, quit being a lazy punk that just complains on and on in this forum, take your damn avatar, and GO HUNT the L1 Caudatergus at Camp Icarus. Tell me how long you can make $10 last till it's all gone? Don't be a stupid prick, do an honest test, I'm really curious.

    And if that's too expensive for you, go tame some Corinthian Kanins at Atlantis Archipelago, buy an 8 ped whip and tell me how long that lasts? Another one that's really cheap is Hunt the THING on RT...

    We're talking pennies per hour to play an online MMORPG...

    You're just complaining because you can't play at a high level, it's too expensive for you. And you don't want to do anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Abomb View Post
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    Also you act like when someone withdraws money that is bad, when it is essential for this game and economy's growth. You need people making money in this game to label it a Real Cash Economy. If there are no winners and no one makes a profit, it isn't an economy. Are we clear on that? Never is it a bad thing when a player did well and withdrew money! This is a winner and you could be a winner too! That is why people start this game! Lets not forget that

    If no one wins then it isn't a game. Yikes Let restore the FREE to play model to it's previous successful state. Again not asking to print PED just asking for a decent model that every FREE to play game needs to get players here in the first place (to spend money).
    Wow lol, now you're just making stuff up. I never said any such thing, ever. I completely agree that we need winners, you just are not understanding, or refusing to understand what I said.
    Last edited by Legends; 01-28-2020 at 17:26.
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  8. #18
    Alpha The Abomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theProphet View Post
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    this game did grow because some people simply deposited, instead of wasting their precious lifetime chasing for a few PECs here and there - even as a noob in 2005.

    just my

    Key word in that sentence "SOME" which is a smaller part of the whole. Also you are flat out removing the chance of any future spenders by not having an acceptable FREE to play system in place.

    The gaming industry now is FREE to play with a micro-transaction system that is highly profitable. If you eliminate FREE to play (which this game is still currently marketed as) All it does is remove potential investors and spenders from the start. They don't see value in the game and feel it's a rip off. Something that no one wants if we want the game to flourish and have a larger player base with more people that might splurge in the Web Shop eventually.

    Just my 2 cents, now if MA wants to stop marketing this game as FREE to play and totally change that strategy since the game has changed and evolved to where we are now, then fine. Except why not profit off the FREE to play game industry like so many other platforms are successfully doing? So just keep the same marketing strategy and improve the FREE to play model to where it was seems like a highly reasonable outcome that will only increase MA revenue.
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  9. #19
    You're on the wrong subject here.

    I started playing in 2006 with my old avatar.
    I played for years, then took a break for 2 or 3 years, and my current avatar is from 2017.

    I can say one thing: The game has never been easier than it is now for newcomers.
    Especially when it comes to starting the game without a deposit.

    It was really very difficult in the past.

    Talking about the price of sweat or fruits is not relevant.
    First, because, once again, MA is not directly responsible for the drop in the MU of sweat.
    Thousands of people have been collecting sweat for years, so there are more and more ingame, the price is falling, it's normal.
    And we can't ask MA to add sweat as an ingredient in every existing BP to fix it.

    Secondly, the cost of the game at a beginner level is much less today than it was before.

    Collecting sweat was harder.

    Also there was absolutely NOTHING offered.

    There was no tutorial.
    You were thrown right into the lion's den on your first day.
    Now there's Thule, and they even get a few items and ammo for free there.

    After that, they got very easily;
    Armor (Scout, and very good Adj Pixie after mentoring), some plates, good beginner weapon bunkin (adjusted) rifle, FAP, ammo, vehicles, etc...
    And that's only for Caly, they can have some more for free on some others planets.

    Again, there were absolutely NOTHING for free in the past.

    They have 10-40 HP mob (Puny) to skill up easily, not loosing so fast.
    Try it, return on Puny is very sustainable. (alot more than when you had to start hunting on Bery or Daiki on your very first days)

    And it's same for mining.
    It was almost impossible to try mining at 1 PED drop whith zero skill and no deposit.
    Now there is 0.1 PED drop for newbies.

    In conclusion I'd say MA have done a great job on the newbies part.

    Now it would be time to work on the average player, the medium level players.

    I don't know, but I suppose someone has to pay for all that free newbie stuff.
    And maybe I'm wrong but to me it looks like average level players do it.

    I'm not against it, I think it's very good for newcomers now.
    And this is probably good for the game.
    But you can't ask even more.

    Would be nice to work now on making it sustainable and enjoyable for the vast majority of players, that is medium level players.

    The game becomes very "nasty" to most players when they reach about L45-55.
    IMO, this is where MA should work now.
    Last edited by ~ Cirrus ~; 01-28-2020 at 14:27.

  10. #20
    Alpha The Abomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsina View Post
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    Sorry, but I truly LOL-ed at the not remembering correctly bit. Then again, even virtual realities can be different for different people, I guess. Anyway, for a long time my benchmark was at about 4 peds per hour. I compared sweating at Nea's to walking backwards with combibo young and getting the odd fruit along with it, sometimes went 100% looking for fruit/stones etc. For a time you could spot fruit/stones whilst driving, so that boosted finds per hour, but then MA took it away again. I did have a few "unusual methods" for sweating as well, so my average may have been higher than other people, but even so, 3 hours of free stuff was enough to fund an hour or more of other more daring stuff, such as, OMG, argos, where I might be lucky but could also be unlucky and lose 15 peds on a run!
    Ahh, the life of low-scale play! Still, it kept me in EU and if I now hunt at 300 peds an hour and an expected loss of maybe 20 peds as normal, rather than rare, that is actually limited by MA not enabling me to go faster in that particular activity. Unless of course, MA takes 50 peds per hour off me (as other threads are complaining about returns right now), in which case I return to carabok, but that's a different story--ish.

    Yes, it was players paying mu for those heady times back then, but it wasn't charity! It was people wanting to get on faster with other activities, instead of just doing higher turnover stuff for 1 hour in 5, or whatever.

    If MA has to pay noobs with universal ammo in any new moves today, then it means the economy is not able to support the low end like it used to. And yet we have many more higher level players now. How does that make sense? It seems to me there's a big drought across a large spread of mid-level play. It seems to be more and more of a secret where mu comes from these days - rare returns from activities which are hidden from common knowledge. Now I know there are niches in this game, but how is even a mid-level player supposed to know about them, let alone people trying out the game and considering whether to stay?

    THAT is a crucial point, in my opinion. It is no longer "Skill up and better mu will be yours." It's "Find the secret, but you won't, and then things might work for you." That is not much of an incentive.

    I am trying to stay on topic, by the way - how does MA now attract and keep new players to a point where lots decide to deposit? Maybe part of the pressure that makes it hard for MA to be 'generous' is that MA is squeezing the middle too much. How can EU be an inspiring, aspiring place again?

    edit: answer to further replies... "This is why MA gives out Uni Ammo that you can't TT or trade, all you can do is use it." Yes, but that also has a value of 90% when considering turnover back to tt returns. I think it is more likely that the move means avatars must spend time in game, so creating alts is not a high-speed approach to grabbing and withdrawing free stuff.

    Actually, maybe the secrets I mention above are more relevant that I thought. It has always seemed to me to be keeping planets like Cyrene semi-dead, because the community actually gets to a point of wanting to be rude rather than have new people discovering stuff and competing for a niche. Sometimes the problem is not where it appears to be.....

    Outstanding post but I have to spread rep around. Also as you mention UNI ammo isn't the best reward. Trading Fruit and Sweat allowed you to play the game. It allowed you to buy items, Sleip or Quad to travel,deeds (if you were savvy and spent time) etc... etc... Attaining PED is needed for it to be an actual economy. Rewarding UNI ammo is actually stepping back from the economy aspect. It's helpful but isn't the answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    First, because, once again, MA is not directly responsible for the drop in the MU of sweat.
    Thousands of people have been collecting sweat for years, so there are more and more ingame, the price is falling, it's normal.
    MA is responsible for maintaining the FREE to play model as well as a healthy economy that has MU. You are correct falling MU is natural but it is up to MA to provide ways for MU to be sustained. This really is their job, to keep a careful eye on the economy whether it's due to over abundance or not enough. If there is too much of a resource in game it is MA's job to remove it from the system to improve MU.

    It's literally MA's job to keep this close watch on our economy to make sure MU doesn't crash or rise to much. We have economy managers at MA that do this. This is how you manage an economy and this is why resources have caps or are rare.

    So MA is directly responsible for MU in a way. If something becomes too rare what do they do? They increase the drop rate. It's part of their balancing team and difficult job the economy managers have here. I do give credit to them it isn't easy to balance this games economy.

    Now the question is should MA remove sweat from the game? Should they impose a cap per day? Should they come up with more uses? Pick which one, anyone... but something so we can indeed move forward Same goes for Fruit heck *cough* gardening system.
    Last edited by The Abomb; 01-28-2020 at 14:39.
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