PlanetCalypsoForum.com :: Entropia Universe Discussion and Resources
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30
  1. #1
    Elite Captain Jack's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2010
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Female
    Location
    Arkadia
    Avatar
    Captain Jack Daniels
    Society
    Captain Jack's Booty Hole
    Posts
    2,838
    Images
    122

    Rebalance the MindForce Combat Professions Skill Trees

    MindForce recently hit the spotlight as "a good skill to boost your HP" due to the MindForce unlocks being given an HP boost. While this was a very welcome change, it has not solved the problem of MindForce lagging behind literally every other combat profession in the advancement of health points. Any avid MindForce user will tell you that by the time you hit about 5K points of Force Merge, you will hit a wall on your HP gains from MindForce and it's actually faster to go back to ranged weaponry even if you're significantly higher level in ranged weaponry than you are in mindforce. And melee even moreso, since melee not only integrates the traditional HP skills but also includes Melee Combat and Martial Arts on top.

    Three possible solutions I propose to remedy this problem.

    Solution #1: Reduce the burden on the primary skills (electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, cryogenics) and increase the gains on the side skills.
    The MindForce (Hit) professions lean 50% of their profession exclusively to their primary skills. This results in massive primary skill gains that don't give HP, while the secondary skills come up very slowly due to the reduced emphasis on their professional advancement.

    Solution #2: Add an HP gain to the primary skills of Electrokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Cryogenics. This would give the MindForce users the added HP they are lacking from the gains of primary skills in other professions such as Laser Sniper (from Rifle) or BLP Pistoleer (from Pistol).

    Solution #3: Integrate Coolness, Combat Sense, and Commando into the MindForce skill tree. The (damage) side of the MindForce professions already have two Combat category skill unlocks (Ranged Damage Assessment and Wounding), while the (Hit) side has no Combat category skill unlocks at all.
    Solution 3 is honestly the most logical and most beneficial of all 3 solutions. Not only does it offer to give the HP that the MindForce user is lacking, but it also helps balance out the (hit) with the (damage) side of the profession, since the majority of players with high MindForce skills are substantially higher in (damage) profession than they are in (hit), this would help close the gap.

    Even just reading the descriptions of the skills themselves, they seem highly appropriate to be integrated into the MindForce professional skill tree.

    Coolness: "Coolness is a measure of how well you perform while under duress."

    Combat Sense: "Combat Sense is a familiarity with combat that allows you to successfully deal with combat situations."

    Commando: "Commando is the ability to use extreme combat skills reserved for true combat veterans."

    Thanks for the read.

    Very respectfully,

    Captain Jack

  2. #2
    Old Alpha Legends's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Canada
    Avatar
    Inherent Marxus Legends
    Society
    Dirty Dingos
    Posts
    1,070
    Images
    386
    Yes, absolutely, I agree with solution 3 as a minimum.
    Check out my blog: Legends' Hunting Blog! and also our Society ad: DIRTY DINGOs
    My Shops at Twin Peaks mall, 2nd floor: Mayhem Armor Shop, Robot Armor Shop, Animal Armor Shop

  3. #3
    Old Alpha Darth Revan's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2016
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Canada
    Avatar
    Darth Reven Reborn
    Society
    Love Craft Academy
    Posts
    964
    Images
    8
    While they are at it, add in some mindforce chip BP's please, it's silly that we cannot craft these.

  4. #4
    Mutated Oleg's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Leeds, UK
    Avatar
    Oleg Oleg McMullery
    Society
    Rangers
    Posts
    18,911
    Images
    667
    Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.

    It has always been the case that skilling across different professions has been the way to get the most HP gains, and that's all that's happening here.

    The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.

  5. #5
    Make The damn ammo work right, and quit using UA first.
    Ill never use this.
    TT it All!

    Rock

  6. #6
    Old Alpha Darth Revan's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2016
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Canada
    Avatar
    Darth Reven Reborn
    Society
    Love Craft Academy
    Posts
    964
    Images
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Stone View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Make The damn ammo work right, and quit using UA first.
    Ill never use this.
    TT it All!

    Rock
    Whats wrong with the ammo?
    Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
    Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
    Same with mining, UA then probes.

    Or is there some other issue?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Revan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Whats wrong with the ammo?
    Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
    Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
    Same with mining, UA then probes.

    Or is there some other issue?
    I did read OP very quickly so not sure if this is on topic, but just want to say that indeed this (also) has been asked many times.

    For many reason, every weapon/item SHOULD USE their default ammo FIRST.
    And UA only after.

    This is so much more logical.

    For example it would allow to manage how much ammo we want to use for this or that tool during a run.
    That is just impossible when each of your tool will use the same UA first.

    Oh wait, am I talking about logic to MA..?
    I'm afraid I'm already wasting my time..


    A Logician.

  8. #8
    Dominant kingofaces's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2013
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    US
    Avatar
    Tony KingofAces Hans
    Posts
    471
    Images
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Revan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Whats wrong with the ammo?
    Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
    Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
    Same with mining, UA then probes.

    Or is there some other issue?
    In mining, probes are used first. It helps for tracking costs when you use UA for hunting instead in that case. I do wish we had a toggle that let us choose which gets used first. Then I could switch it up and still be able to take out a stray mob without needing to use UA if I was wanting to use it for mining instead.
    Last edited by kingofaces; 02-03-2020 at 22:34.

  9. #9
    Old Alpha Legends's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2006
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Male
    Location
    Canada
    Avatar
    Inherent Marxus Legends
    Society
    Dirty Dingos
    Posts
    1,070
    Images
    386
    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.

    It has always been the case that skilling across different professions has been the way to get the most HP gains, and that's all that's happening here.

    The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.
    Also very true.

    Every system in a video game is usually some form of Rock-Paper-Scissors. It makes sense that one should look over all of the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon category and choose carefully.

    However it seems that the advantages are not very much, e.g. Melee doesn't require ammo, but when you look at your cost to kill, it's basically the same so who cares right? I think the way things are now, melee could be overhauled so that the average melee weapon has approximately 10% higher efficiency than the average gun (look at the ArMatrix series and you'll see this is not currently the case), since the melee hunter has to fight up close and generally has higher defensive costs, and since those are only compensated for at a rate of ~95%, it will pull down a melee hunter's long-term returns from the expected 97%+, which will add up to a lot over time.

    So if melee gives more health, guns give you range (lower defensive costs in general), what does MindForce have as a distinct advantage? Mindforce is really similar to guns; It also has range, it can use TT ammo now, within the main category, you can specialize into sub-categories (Laser, BLP, Plasma, Gauss, which further break down into Carbines/Rifles and Handguns/Pistols. Mindforce breaks down into 3 main categories: Electro, Pyro and Cryo, 2 of which further break down...) which each has benefits and drawbacks, but you somehow end up with a lot less health than guns when specializing in Mindforce... I don't get what the advantage of using Mindforce is.

    The Rock-Paper-Scissors proposition for the major weapon categories should probably look something like this:

    Category
    Defensive
    Offensive
    Costs
    Versatility
    Efficiency
    Skilling
    Melee
    X
    -
    -
    -
    Guns
    -
    -
    X
    -
    MF
    -
    -
    X
    -

    X means all things considered, you are at a disadvantage
    means all things considered, you are at an advantage
    - means has no distinct advantage or disadvantage

    It may not look like it at first glance but this table is very well balanced, there's something there for any strategy or play style and a drawback for each, the rest being neutral. For example, if you want to go cheap, you go guns, if you want a wider range of options and versatility in your hunting and weapons, you go Mindforce, if you want higher DPS or higher base Efficiency, you go melee...

    For the Defensive column, consider your exposure to the mob's attacks and your overall Defensive costs while hunting.

    For the Offensive column, consider the DPS for a given level.

    For the Costs column, consider the availability of weapons, how long they last before breaking, their drop-rate, markup, etc...

    For the Versatility column, consider the number of available types of weapons, the variety of specializations available, etc...

    For the Efficiency column, consider the average Efficiency rating of weapons and DPP (though DPP is different than Efficiency, it is somewhat tied to it)

    For the Skilling column, consider how easy it is to skill up these weapons, what side-skills can be gotten along the way, opportunities for specialization within that skill tree, etc...

    Note that this is related to the big picture of that weapon category. It can be a bit dizzying to try to work out the details of this because within each weapon category you have sub-categories with each their own benefits and drawbacks. For example, since this thread is about Mindforce, here's how the sub-categories of MF Attack breaks down:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig|MindArk View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Balance between Damage, Speed and Range:


    D = Damage (per hit).
    S = Speed (uses per minute).
    R = Range (in meters).

    Each gauge goes from 0 to 100.
    The chips used for this diagram are Nanochip IV (L)s.
    So, circling back to what Oleg said, the only distinct 'advantage' I see right now for Mindforce is that every Attack chip that you skill in does have an AoE chip available (Strike version) which you can use right away, whereas for Guns, this is a separate specialization that you must skill from bottom.

    Are there other advantages I'm not aware of?

    Legends
    Last edited by Legends; 02-04-2020 at 00:03.
    Check out my blog: Legends' Hunting Blog! and also our Society ad: DIRTY DINGOs
    My Shops at Twin Peaks mall, 2nd floor: Mayhem Armor Shop, Robot Armor Shop, Animal Armor Shop

  10. #10
    Elite Captain Jack's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2010
    Gender | Ingame
    Male | Female
    Location
    Arkadia
    Avatar
    Captain Jack Daniels
    Society
    Captain Jack's Booty Hole
    Posts
    2,838
    Images
    122
    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.
    Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible) the only advantages offensive MindForce currently offers are the Damage over Time and a run speed debuff.
    The damage over time is a wonderful advantage, although it is also not unique to MindForce (as it is available with BLP rifle on flame throwers).
    The run speed debuff is only available on one low-DPS chip and is so short lived that it expires before you could get a shot off with a different weapon, so hardly an advantage.
    The "melee mindforce" buff in one specific Mayhem instance could be viewed as an "advantage", but the lack of range so characteristic of MindForce weapons eliminates any actual advantage to be had there.

    That being said, there is significant room for improvement here. For example, they could make all Combustive chips have a damage over time option. All Cryogenic chips could have a run speed debuff. All Electrokinetic chips could have a reload speed debuff inflicted on the target, etc.
    If MindArk were to expand the advantages to MindForce then I would agree it would not be necessary to level the playing field. But as it stands the advantages offered by MindForce are far outweighed by the advantages offered by other professions. Melee has lifesteal amps and massive HP gains. Ranged weaponry give HP on their primary skills and give the option for long ranged weaponry. The absolute longest range options on MindForce on any chips that still drop consistently are less than half of what is available in the ranged professions.

    At present, the only real advantage to offensive MindForce is for damage over time from Arsonistic chips (which are more often paired with non-MindForce weapons anyways) or the short-lived HP boost gained from skilling previously low level MindForce up to the 5K Force Merge level. By that point all your other MindForce side skills will be so high they will progress too slowly to be worth continuing, and most players will return to other weapon styles until their HP gains slow down sufficiently to be worth pursuing MindForce again which, at present time, appears to be greater than level 150

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleg View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.

    I'll definitely agree with that. I do think that Raven's previous solution is the answer though. Add MindForce ArMatrix blueprints to the mix and the problem is solved.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Planet Calypso on Twitter  Follow Planet Calypso on Facebook