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Thread: Expectation

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    When I started this game 14 years ago, it was a player vs. player money game.
    And that's why I loved it.
    Entropia was built on speculation. When Neverdie bought the Asteroid (and Deathifier bought TI), there were no promises and no guarantees, stated or implied by MindArk. It was a total leap of faith. In the end, the whole thing paid off tenfold for MindArk. Most people only talk about the profit that Neverdie made off of it, and they forget that this whole Asteroid venture was crucial in inciting many more players to make those larger deposits and making those big purchases. It was done, really, with the intention of creating customer confidence.

    When the Shopping Malls came, it was again, same thing, sight unseen. No way to know exactly what you were getting, another leap of faith. I believe there was just a 3D rendering of a mall to show what it looked like, but you really didn't know how many shops you were getting, how many item points they would have, didn't know they had terminals inside, auctioneer and so on, it was a complete unknown what you were getting and therefore pure speculation.

    According to Google:

    Speculation:
    1. the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

    2. investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
    The Asteroid, Treasure Island, Crystal Palace, the Shopping Malls, the 5 Banks, these all fit the definition. These are the things that brought the money in to even build the game that you loved. So I have a hard time understanding how you can argue against the investors.

    But it's interesting to see how 2 people (you and me) who started playing Entropia right around the same time can have 2 very different views of what the whole game is about...

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    Today it's become a player versus investor game.
    And this is mainly (not only) because of the Deeds.
    That's why, when I saw someone again answering a "player" saying that we could make money, and explaining that it's mostly because of the CLD, I thought "here we go again", and I jumped in.

    And I don't want to get into a political discussion, but just saying the sad thing is that it replicates exactly what happens in real life with capitalism.

    The richest people win.
    The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

    Who wants to play a game that reproduces exactly the same shit that happens in real life?
    Besides people who know they're on the winning side ?
    That is generally true, I guess, but there are exceptions to this. I met someone in the game who has never deposited any money into it, and who, according to him, had an account worth close to 20k. He had been playing for about 5-6 years when I met him and most of that money came from healing services.

    Another example of something you could get into and make some free money was pets and taming. Granted MindArk is kind of ruining that profession now by neglecting it and by forcing people to kill mobs in order to spawn the tamable one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    I can't blame anyone directly for that.
    Neither MA who created the deeds to "save" the game (they should have stopped at CLD), nor the people who can afford hundreds of them and buy them.

    But it's a fact that players always lose in the long run, and investors always win.

    It's just a bitter observation, concerning a game that I liked a lot, and that I think deserves a lot better.
    I have lost money as an investor in this game, so it's not true that "investors always win". I have speculated on certain things that did not work out for me and ended up selling at a loss (or was very lucky to break even in some cases). And every time I buy something, I have to wonder if MindArk is going to change something tomorrow that's going to cause this item's value to evaporate, it does happen. And the opposite happens too, but it's very hard to try and predict what will go up in value, and most desirable items today will only go down in value as time goes by. There are only a few things, maybe a handful of things that actually went up in value over time. And it would have been impossible to know what they were at the time so investing money in Entropia is not as easy as you make it out to be.

    As an investor, I'm constantly exposing myself to scammers, one old scheme that I think is well know by now is land owners that pay people or use bots to hunt on their land to inflate the revenues while they are trying to sell it so they can get more money for it (very few have been known to actually do that so I don't mean to paint all land owners as scammers here, just an example).

    Also, investors often don't use the items that they buy, so they don't actually 'get their money's worth' from them. An example is a highly desirable unlimited gun. The benefit of owning one is in the savings you make from not having to hunt using limited guns. All that markup you save adds up to a lot over time. A good unlimited gun can easily pay for itself in 3-6 years of hunting. The investor that speculates on one isn't availing himself of these savings. The hunter will often see the gun pay for itself before they sell it for a nice markup, while the investor sells it at a loss due to depreciation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    That's probably also why I like PvP, and idea of lootable PvP in this game, cause here we come back closer to a player vs player game.
    Money is still involved alot since good gear is expensive but for sure it is alot closer to something fair, that is Player Versus Player (what PvP stand for)
    I hate PvP, that's why I quit EVE Online. As far as I'm concerned, PvP is heavily reliant on pay-to-win model, and I'm not interested in fighting other peoples' bank accounts with my bank account, I think that's dumb.

    --
    We are obviously 2 very different people with very different experience in life. I will respect your opinion, I hope you can see and respect mine.
    Last edited by Legends; 02-16-2020 at 06:41.
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  2. #32
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    There is nothing to hinder a player to buy some shares in a planet and become an investor. And have some peds back from his play / spending . so the poor /rich player debate is just stupid



    Players here are free to do whatever they want


    BTW support MA , depo
    dont expect every klick to be profit

  3. #33
    I'm not going to answer in detail to everything you say here, because it's always the same problem, the discussion always ends up losing its initial subject.

    Just saying, you talk about how good big investors are for the game.
    I would say I don't feel ANY difference as a PLAYER between before and after all the examples you talk about.
    Really the losses are the same.

    So in theory it seems coherent, but practice proves the opposite. (again from a player's point of view)

    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    I hate PvP, that's why I quit EVE Online. As far as I'm concerned, PvP is heavily reliant on pay-to-win model, and I'm not interested in fighting other peoples' bank accounts with my bank account, I think that's dumb.
    I don't think that's right.
    I think fighting other people's bank accounts with your bank account is exactly what you (and all deeds owners) are doing.

    To me the Deeds are the same as PvP, but done in a sneaky, underhanded way.

    PvP is fair and direct, it's straightforward and frank.
    One player versus one player, on the same field, you lose, you win.
    I lose much more than I win, but I'm ok with that, because I have choice to do it or not, and the guy I kill/loot or who kill/loot me has chose to do it also.

    In the case of the lands, for example, it's also different, because the players pay a tax directly to the owner, but they can choose whether or not they want to play on that land, and you pay for something in exchange, a good spawn on a certain mob, or an event.

    With the Deeds, it's completely different, you don't have any choice.
    Every player has to pay for it, always.

    Again, I don't blame anyone directly for that, but it's a fact that the money that pays the Deeds dividends every week has to come from somewhere.

    And the only source, the only money coming into this game, comes directly from the players' losses.
    I don't think, unlike some naive people, that MA is cutting their profits or using the auction fees to pay the deed owners...

    So to get back to the original point, we have a player who says you can only lose money by just playing (hunt/mining/craft mostly), and he's right.
    It was already very hard to make money before by just playing, but since the deeds it's worse and even close to impossible.


    Now, to answer Jhereg too, it's true that a hunter who deposits 100K$ in the game to buy the best gear, etc... could be seen as an investor.

    But this is a money game, game has become more and more expensive mostly cause some people have alot of money and chose to deposit huge amounts.
    I mean I could get a Supremacy armor for TT+100 if no player had at any time estimated that he could put up $10K to buy it.
    That's supply & demand system, you can't go against that. (unless if MA would have set a deposit limit)

    But there's still a big difference between someone who deposits a lot and plays, and someone who deposits a lot, buys deeds, logout, and goes to play another game while waiting to make money from EU players.

    The game is the game, either you play or you don't play, but that should be player against player.
    With deeds it's not a game anymore, it's very different, and it strangely looks like leeching.


    It may seem contradictory, but it's quite possible that something that saved the game might end up killing it.
    I hope I'm wrong.

  4. #34
    Prowler Legends's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    I'm not going to answer in detail to everything you say here, because it's always the same problem, the discussion always ends up losing its initial subject.
    Agreed, we're just going to end up going round in circles so I'm going to keep it short too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    And the only source, the only money coming into this game, comes directly from the players' losses.
    I very much disagree with that. I mean just look at how much I've depo'ed (figure was provided earlier) and look at my skills... The proportion of money that I brough into the game versus the skills I have is completely disproportionate, AND I DON'T EVEN OWN ANY LAND!

    So, the big picture that you somehow have of the current state of things in Entropia I think is very wrong.

    Also, you say Deeds are killing the game. But MindArk has ALWAYS taken a rake on Eudoria. When they created the Deeds, they SOLD 50% of EUDORIA. Nothing changed, it's the same rake, just now 50% of it goes to Deed owners instead of MA.

    You have a very skewed picture of what's actually going on I think, a bias against, or resentment towards those 'investors' as you call them.

    Legends
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  5. #35
    Stalker Naverith's Avatar
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    All of this is just the minutiae of this "game".

    A slot machine is NOT so "everyone can win". It's there so everyone can play and watch the pretty pictures and pat on the back the guy who does win.

    I knew when I got in this game years ago that I was going to throw lots of $$$ into it, just to have fun, so I don't bitch about that. But I have a secret:

    I simply deduct all my costs as "advertising" for my business. The IRS has agreed with that for over 15 years. As long as I actively promote my company (no matter how small that promotion is), it qualifies as "advertisement", which is a business expense.

    LOL

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    I very much disagree with that. I mean just look at how much I've depo'ed (figure was provided earlier) and look at my skills... The proportion of money that I brough into the game versus the skills I have is completely disproportionate, AND I DON'T EVEN OWN ANY LAND!
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    I've deposited about 22k usd over the last 13 years or so that I have been a depositor. I estimate that to be worth well over 40k now, but I haven't done the math on it in several years so it's probably more. Most of that was from an early investment into CLDs
    You contradict yourself alot..

    And indeed the skill levels of your avatar are very low for 14 years of play.
    Which only confirms exactly what I'm saying..
    There is players, and there is investors.

    For example I saw that you are L20 animal looter after 14 years of playing.
    You've won at least $18K without really "playing".

    My current avatar is L42 animal looter after only 2 years of playing.
    And all I've done is lose money by playing.

    Sorry, but the facts are speaking by themselves.

    You came to Entropia to make money, do business, invest, and you did earn money (mostly whith CLD).
    I came to play and I loose like every PLAYER, because we have to pay for that money you earn.

    PS:

    I'll say it again, it's nothing personal.
    You talk, I answer.
    If it had been anyone else I would have said the same thing.
    I don't care who's who.

    That feather you see in my avatar's image doesn't mean I like writing...
    It's a symbol, and it means a lot to me.
    Last edited by ~ Cirrus ~; 02-16-2020 at 20:51.

  7. #37
    Dominant Ranavolana's Avatar
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    Naverith, are you saying that you are showing your costs of playing this game as advertising costs of your RL business?

    I must be misunderstanding you. I hope so, for there is no way the IRS would accept your costs here as a genuine advertising expense

  8. #38
    Prowler Legends's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    You contradict yourself alot..
    I actually don't, you just cherry pick little details here and there and then try to use them to back up your theories. I've never made a withdrawal, so technically, I've never 'sucked out' any PED out of the game, as you pretend the investors are doing. Actually it's kind of the opposite in my case, I've re-invested a lot of that profit in creating content and try to create cool stuff. For example I upgraded several of my shops, I most likely will never see this $800 I spent so far in upgrades because a large shop is just a large shop and a small shop is a small shop, most people won't be willing to recognize any added value for 20 or 40 more item points... I've also bought expensive Land Plots when they were first released, and I'm guaranteed to not see those prices again, ever (paid well over 400% for the composite planks at the time), but I had fomo and I wanted to be sure I secured at least one so I could create some cool content later on when MA releases buildings for them.

    I don't have to get a licence from you or permission from you to be allowed to invest in this game, it's the way the game is. Speculation always was and always will be at the heart of the game's plot. Calypso is the new frontier for the human race and we are colonists, here to stake our claim and build our empires.

    That you so firmly hold onto those ideas that you have that investors are 'sucking out' all the money from the players is really sad though, they built this game, without them, Entropia would have died long ago, or it would be very small and still running on pixel art.

    Anyways, you are so god damn fixated on this point, it's absurd now. Most of the rebuttals in my previous posts were conveniently ignored by you, so obviously this is where I start losing interest cause it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a stove...

    Take care,

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  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    I actually don't...
    Yes you do.. alot.

    So your account is now worth $20K more than you invested, but you're saying it's not profit because you haven't taken the money out of the game yet ?
    And you're doing all this for the good of the game and the community, right ?

    Do you realize no one's gonna believe that ?
    It's so ridiculous that it doesn't even require a contradiction...

    Anyway you're now justifying making money in entropia when it wasn't directly the point.
    But if you feel the need to justify yourself maybe deep down you know something's wrong...

    Anyway, since you're doing it for the good of the game and the players, maybe we should all thank you ?
    I should have stuck to my first comment then...

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    You're so altruistic... It's a beautiful thing to see.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranavolana View Post
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    I must be misunderstanding you. I hope so, for there is no way the IRS would accept your costs here as a genuine advertising expense
    hopefully no IRS auditors are reading this, lol.

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