Expectation

When I started this game 14 years ago, it was a player vs. player money game.
And that's why I loved it.

Entropia was built on speculation. When Neverdie bought the Asteroid (and Deathifier bought TI), there were no promises and no guarantees, stated or implied by MindArk. It was a total leap of faith. In the end, the whole thing paid off tenfold for MindArk. Most people only talk about the profit that Neverdie made off of it, and they forget that this whole Asteroid venture was crucial in inciting many more players to make those larger deposits and making those big purchases. It was done, really, with the intention of creating customer confidence.

When the Shopping Malls came, it was again, same thing, sight unseen. No way to know exactly what you were getting, another leap of faith. I believe there was just a 3D rendering of a mall to show what it looked like, but you really didn't know how many shops you were getting, how many item points they would have, didn't know they had terminals inside, auctioneer and so on, it was a complete unknown what you were getting and therefore pure speculation.

According to Google:

Speculation:
1. the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

2. investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.

The Asteroid, Treasure Island, Crystal Palace, the Shopping Malls, the 5 Banks, these all fit the definition. These are the things that brought the money in to even build the game that you loved. So I have a hard time understanding how you can argue against the investors.

But it's interesting to see how 2 people (you and me) who started playing Entropia right around the same time can have 2 very different views of what the whole game is about...

Today it's become a player versus investor game.
And this is mainly (not only) because of the Deeds.
That's why, when I saw someone again answering a "player" saying that we could make money, and explaining that it's mostly because of the CLD, I thought "here we go again", and I jumped in.

And I don't want to get into a political discussion, but just saying the sad thing is that it replicates exactly what happens in real life with capitalism.

The richest people win.
The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

Who wants to play a game that reproduces exactly the same shit that happens in real life?
Besides people who know they're on the winning side ?

That is generally true, I guess, but there are exceptions to this. I met someone in the game who has never deposited any money into it, and who, according to him, had an account worth close to 20k. He had been playing for about 5-6 years when I met him and most of that money came from healing services.

Another example of something you could get into and make some free money was pets and taming. Granted MindArk is kind of ruining that profession now by neglecting it and by forcing people to kill mobs in order to spawn the tamable one.

I can't blame anyone directly for that.
Neither MA who created the deeds to "save" the game (they should have stopped at CLD), nor the people who can afford hundreds of them and buy them.

But it's a fact that players always lose in the long run, and investors always win.

It's just a bitter observation, concerning a game that I liked a lot, and that I think deserves a lot better.

I have lost money as an investor in this game, so it's not true that "investors always win". I have speculated on certain things that did not work out for me and ended up selling at a loss (or was very lucky to break even in some cases). And every time I buy something, I have to wonder if MindArk is going to change something tomorrow that's going to cause this item's value to evaporate, it does happen. And the opposite happens too, but it's very hard to try and predict what will go up in value, and most desirable items today will only go down in value as time goes by. There are only a few things, maybe a handful of things that actually went up in value over time. And it would have been impossible to know what they were at the time so investing money in Entropia is not as easy as you make it out to be.

As an investor, I'm constantly exposing myself to scammers, one old scheme that I think is well know by now is land owners that pay people or use bots to hunt on their land to inflate the revenues while they are trying to sell it so they can get more money for it (very few have been known to actually do that so I don't mean to paint all land owners as scammers here, just an example).

Also, investors often don't use the items that they buy, so they don't actually 'get their money's worth' from them. An example is a highly desirable unlimited gun. The benefit of owning one is in the savings you make from not having to hunt using limited guns. All that markup you save adds up to a lot over time. A good unlimited gun can easily pay for itself in 3-6 years of hunting. The investor that speculates on one isn't availing himself of these savings. The hunter will often see the gun pay for itself before they sell it for a nice markup, while the investor sells it at a loss due to depreciation.

That's probably also why I like PvP, and idea of lootable PvP in this game, cause here we come back closer to a player vs player game.
Money is still involved alot since good gear is expensive but for sure it is alot closer to something fair, that is Player Versus Player (what PvP stand for)

I hate PvP, that's why I quit EVE Online. As far as I'm concerned, PvP is heavily reliant on pay-to-win model, and I'm not interested in fighting other peoples' bank accounts with my bank account, I think that's dumb.

--
We are obviously 2 very different people with very different experience in life. I will respect your opinion, I hope you can see and respect mine.
 
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There is nothing to hinder a player to buy some shares in a planet and become an investor. And have some peds back from his play / spending . so the poor /rich player debate is just stupid



Players here are free to do whatever they want


BTW support MA , depo
dont expect every klick to be profit
 
I'm not going to answer in detail to everything you say here, because it's always the same problem, the discussion always ends up losing its initial subject.

Just saying, you talk about how good big investors are for the game.
I would say I don't feel ANY difference as a PLAYER between before and after all the examples you talk about.
Really the losses are the same.

So in theory it seems coherent, but practice proves the opposite. (again from a player's point of view)

I hate PvP, that's why I quit EVE Online. As far as I'm concerned, PvP is heavily reliant on pay-to-win model, and I'm not interested in fighting other peoples' bank accounts with my bank account, I think that's dumb.

I don't think that's right.
I think fighting other people's bank accounts with your bank account is exactly what you (and all deeds owners) are doing.

To me the Deeds are the same as PvP, but done in a sneaky, underhanded way.

PvP is fair and direct, it's straightforward and frank.
One player versus one player, on the same field, you lose, you win.
I lose much more than I win, but I'm ok with that, because I have choice to do it or not, and the guy I kill/loot or who kill/loot me has chose to do it also.

In the case of the lands, for example, it's also different, because the players pay a tax directly to the owner, but they can choose whether or not they want to play on that land, and you pay for something in exchange, a good spawn on a certain mob, or an event.

With the Deeds, it's completely different, you don't have any choice.
Every player has to pay for it, always.

Again, I don't blame anyone directly for that, but it's a fact that the money that pays the Deeds dividends every week has to come from somewhere.

And the only source, the only money coming into this game, comes directly from the players' losses.
I don't think, unlike some naive people, that MA is cutting their profits or using the auction fees to pay the deed owners...

So to get back to the original point, we have a player who says you can only lose money by just playing (hunt/mining/craft mostly), and he's right.
It was already very hard to make money before by just playing, but since the deeds it's worse and even close to impossible.


Now, to answer Jhereg too, it's true that a hunter who deposits 100K$ in the game to buy the best gear, etc... could be seen as an investor.

But this is a money game, game has become more and more expensive mostly cause some people have alot of money and chose to deposit huge amounts.
I mean I could get a Supremacy armor for TT+100 if no player had at any time estimated that he could put up $10K to buy it.
That's supply & demand system, you can't go against that. (unless if MA would have set a deposit limit)

But there's still a big difference between someone who deposits a lot and plays, and someone who deposits a lot, buys deeds, logout, and goes to play another game while waiting to make money from EU players.

The game is the game, either you play or you don't play, but that should be player against player.
With deeds it's not a game anymore, it's very different, and it strangely looks like leeching.


It may seem contradictory, but it's quite possible that something that saved the game might end up killing it.
I hope I'm wrong. :dunce:
 
I'm not going to answer in detail to everything you say here, because it's always the same problem, the discussion always ends up losing its initial subject.

Agreed, we're just going to end up going round in circles so I'm going to keep it short too.

And the only source, the only money coming into this game, comes directly from the players' losses.

I very much disagree with that. I mean just look at how much I've depo'ed (figure was provided earlier) and look at my skills... The proportion of money that I brough into the game versus the skills I have is completely disproportionate, AND I DON'T EVEN OWN ANY LAND!

So, the big picture that you somehow have of the current state of things in Entropia I think is very wrong.

Also, you say Deeds are killing the game. But MindArk has ALWAYS taken a rake on Eudoria. When they created the Deeds, they SOLD 50% of EUDORIA. Nothing changed, it's the same rake, just now 50% of it goes to Deed owners instead of MA.

You have a very skewed picture of what's actually going on I think, a bias against, or resentment towards those 'investors' as you call them.

Legends
 
All of this is just the minutiae of this "game".

A slot machine is NOT so "everyone can win". It's there so everyone can play and watch the pretty pictures and pat on the back the guy who does win.

I knew when I got in this game years ago that I was going to throw lots of $$$ into it, just to have fun, so I don't bitch about that. But I have a secret:

I simply deduct all my costs as "advertising" for my business. The IRS has agreed with that for over 15 years. As long as I actively promote my company (no matter how small that promotion is), it qualifies as "advertisement", which is a business expense.

LOL
 
I very much disagree with that. I mean just look at how much I've depo'ed (figure was provided earlier) and look at my skills... The proportion of money that I brough into the game versus the skills I have is completely disproportionate, AND I DON'T EVEN OWN ANY LAND!

I've deposited about 22k usd over the last 13 years or so that I have been a depositor. I estimate that to be worth well over 40k now, but I haven't done the math on it in several years so it's probably more. Most of that was from an early investment into CLDs

You contradict yourself alot..

And indeed the skill levels of your avatar are very low for 14 years of play.
Which only confirms exactly what I'm saying..
There is players, and there is investors.

For example I saw that you are L20 animal looter after 14 years of playing.
You've won at least $18K without really "playing".

My current avatar is L42 animal looter after only 2 years of playing.
And all I've done is lose money by playing.

Sorry, but the facts are speaking by themselves.

You came to Entropia to make money, do business, invest, and you did earn money (mostly whith CLD).
I came to play and I loose like every PLAYER, because we have to pay for that money you earn.

PS:

I'll say it again, it's nothing personal.
You talk, I answer.
If it had been anyone else I would have said the same thing.
I don't care who's who.

That feather you see in my avatar's image doesn't mean I like writing...
It's a symbol, and it means a lot to me.
 
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Naverith, are you saying that you are showing your costs of playing this game as advertising costs of your RL business?

I must be misunderstanding you. I hope so, for there is no way the IRS would accept your costs here as a genuine advertising expense
 
You contradict yourself alot..

I actually don't, you just cherry pick little details here and there and then try to use them to back up your theories. I've never made a withdrawal, so technically, I've never 'sucked out' any PED out of the game, as you pretend the investors are doing. Actually it's kind of the opposite in my case, I've re-invested a lot of that profit in creating content and try to create cool stuff. For example I upgraded several of my shops, I most likely will never see this $800 I spent so far in upgrades because a large shop is just a large shop and a small shop is a small shop, most people won't be willing to recognize any added value for 20 or 40 more item points... I've also bought expensive Land Plots when they were first released, and I'm guaranteed to not see those prices again, ever (paid well over 400% for the composite planks at the time), but I had fomo and I wanted to be sure I secured at least one so I could create some cool content later on when MA releases buildings for them.

I don't have to get a licence from you or permission from you to be allowed to invest in this game, it's the way the game is. Speculation always was and always will be at the heart of the game's plot. Calypso is the new frontier for the human race and we are colonists, here to stake our claim and build our empires.

That you so firmly hold onto those ideas that you have that investors are 'sucking out' all the money from the players is really sad though, they built this game, without them, Entropia would have died long ago, or it would be very small and still running on pixel art.

Anyways, you are so god damn fixated on this point, it's absurd now. Most of the rebuttals in my previous posts were conveniently ignored by you, so obviously this is where I start losing interest cause it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a stove...

Take care,

Legends
 
I actually don't...

Yes you do.. alot.

So your account is now worth $20K more than you invested, but you're saying it's not profit because you haven't taken the money out of the game yet ?
And you're doing all this for the good of the game and the community, right ?

Do you realize no one's gonna believe that ?
It's so ridiculous that it doesn't even require a contradiction... :rolleyes:

Anyway you're now justifying making money in entropia when it wasn't directly the point.
But if you feel the need to justify yourself maybe deep down you know something's wrong... :confused:

Anyway, since you're doing it for the good of the game and the players, maybe we should all thank you ?
I should have stuck to my first comment then...

You're so altruistic... It's a beautiful thing to see. :tiphat:
 
I must be misunderstanding you. I hope so, for there is no way the IRS would accept your costs here as a genuine advertising expense

hopefully no IRS auditors are reading this, lol.
 
Yes you do.. alot.

So your account is now worth $20K more than you invested, but you're saying it's not profit because you haven't taken the money out of the game yet ?
And you're doing all this for the good of the game and the community, right ?

Do you realize no one's gonna believe that ?
It's so ridiculous that it doesn't even require a contradiction... :rolleyes:

Anyway you're now justifying making money in entropia when it wasn't directly the point.
But if you feel the need to justify yourself maybe deep down you know something's wrong... :confused:

Anyway, since you're doing it for the good of the game and the players, maybe we should all thank you ?
I should have stuck to my first comment then...

Yeah... lol, cause that's exactly what I was trying to say. :rolleyes:

wow...

cherry_picking.jpg

If most people think like you do, I should really re-think my whole reason for doing what am doing, cause all the hard work and hours I've been putting in is really a total waste.... I'm just coming now to a very very sad realization I'm afraid...
 
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Yeah... lol, cause that's exactly what I was trying to say. :rolleyes:

wow...

What ?.. :scratch2:

Indeed I don't understand what you're trying to say.
But why don't you say it, instead of just trying ? :confused:

Well it's obvious that you're completely out of serious arguments, so let's stop here.
And I'll leave you the last word since I'm kind.
Or a last picture ? I know it's easier for some people.. :rolleyes:
 
What ?.. :scratch2:

Indeed I don't understand what you're trying to say.
But why don't you say it, instead of just trying ? :confused:

Well it's obvious that you're completely out of serious arguments, so let's stop here.
And I'll leave you the last word since I'm kind.
Or a last picture ? I know it's easier for some people.. :rolleyes:

Your crusade or whatever you're on, is simply one of seeking to be 'right'. It doesn't really matter what I say. Your being 'right; is dependent upon my being wrong since I represent the opposing view, so no matter what I say, it will be wrong as far as you're concerned, or it will have to somehow be twisted and used to reinforce your side.

I've stated many times this game was built on the backs of the 'investors', as you call them (I would use a different term, perhaps 'early adopters', I think that would be more accurate, but the majority of these 'early adopters' deposited large sums with a specific intent to invest into this new platform, I agree on that, but how else would you describe those guys who made large deposits early on? I think 'early adopters' is very fitting).

But, in your many replies, you won't touch that arguement with a ten foot pole, it's quicksand as far as you're concerned, you'll just dig yourself a whole you can't get out of.

So, you cherry pick some of the things I say (thanks for making it easy for everyone btw and highlighting those cherries in red for us dumb folks :wtg:), and you use what I say against me.

Alright, cool. Keep beating down on the guy who is spending 12-16 hours online everyday trying to help folks, looking for those hard to find items people want, doing and logging hunts and sharing results here on this forum to try to be of assistance (the more data points you have, the clearer the picture will be)... That's who you should beat on, that guy.

Keep beating on the guy who put his money where his mouth is in 2011 and wired over 11k usd of his own money to a foreign company in a foreign country not knowing what was going to happen to that money. The guy who stepped up to the plate and said:"I believe in this Entropia thing! I trust these guys!!! You should too!!!"

That's the guy you should beat on, he's the one who got all that money you lost hunting, he's the one! Beat on that guy!

Pffff... You've got the wrong target dude, you are assigning blame in the wrong place, and I've told you several times in my previous posts why you are wrong, but you keep making this personal and are determined to make me look like I'm just a profiteer and am in it all for myself, when clearly, if that was the case, I would not be here doing what am doing 12-16 hours/day for 12 PEC profit, I'd be selling on Amazon or ebay or just go get a minimum wage job if I was really hurting that badly for cash...

No, clearly, this crusade you're on, it's borne out of some resentment you harbor for the money you've lost hunting, pure and simple. But you have the wrong target my friend, I'm sorry to say.

Please, let's leave it at these peaceful terms.

Best of luck to you,

Legends
 
You've got the wrong target dude

Sorry I said I'm letting you have the last word, but I just have to say, that's a nice speech. :thumbup:
But unfortunately it's off topic.

You might want to reread, not my posts, because I don't think you like them, but at least the very first post of this thread, to remind you what we were talking about here...

I don't know what crusade you're talking about, but you sure want to be the victim.

I'm sorry to say I don't care about you personally and the $20,000 profit you made.
Honestly, good for you. :beerchug:

I'm talking mainly about the Deeds system in general, and at no time did I mention any particular Deeds owner.

I'm willing to discuss factual matters.
But I'm not at all interested in ego battles.

I was only answering what you're saying.
And apparently you like to talk about yourself.
It's a subject that you seem to enjoy, so ok, I'm just answering based on what you talk about. (you)

But I've said 2 or 3 times that it's nothing personal, and that I can't even blame anyone in particular, neither MA nor the Deeds owners, so I don't know what more I can say... :scratch:

Despite that, you feel personally attacked, and you feel the need to justify yourself over and over again.
You might want to ask yourself why. :wise:
 
You were the one who started attacking me personally by facetiously commenting on my altruism, so the whole thing started as a personal attack. I never made any attacks toward your person until then.

These were the points that I brought up throughout the discussion:

1. the 'investors' are the ones who brought the money that was used to build the game to begin with, without them, it would not have been able to grow like it has. Speculation has always been a big part of the tradition and the lore of Entropia, right from the beginning. It's part of the excitement and the adventure and it is imho the aspect of it that has made it this successful thus far. Without the speculators (investors), there's no FOMA, no Monria, Arkadia, RT, no Cyrene, none of that.

2. there always was a silent rake of either 2.5% or 3% on Eudoria (not sure which it is), the only difference now is that 50% of those proceeds is now split among the CLD owners, but it's the same rake as before, nothing changed. What MindArk did there was just raise funds by selling 50% of Calypso (via the 60,000 CLDs) to further expand the game.

3. 'investors' (many of them, not all) create content in this game and in doing so, add value in. Neverdie didn't just sit at home and wait for the money to flow, he streamed music on the Asteroid, created tons of events, lots of fun was had by more then will ever admit here. Land owners create events which are fun and add value to the game, like you said earlier.

4. the 'investors' do not always win like you said. The value of Deeds go up and down just like anything else in life. I bought hundreds of AUDs which I ended up selling at a loss. I bought pills and strongboxes that I ended up selling at a loss because it took too long to sell. It can be treacherous investing in Entropia at times. Corwin a couple years back had bought a land area and worked really hard to create interesting events and promote it, he had a weekly event going and a monthly event. He managed to attract a decent number of participants for his first monthly event, then right in the middle of it, the servers bugged out on him and the mobs wouldn't re-spawn. He kept his word and paid out the prize he had promised but the whole thing left a bad taste in his mouth and he ended giving up and selling the land. It's not all rosy and perfect on this side, this isn't a case of the grass is greener, not at all.

5. the 'investors' bring large sums of money into the game and some of it does end up getting re-distributed to the 'players'. I know many land owners and shop owners who actively hunt, mine and generally give back in many ways, like Ant (monria owner), Spacejanitor (land owner), Queenb (RT instance and shop owner), Ravenjade (RT instance & shop network owner), morey (fund investor, mall manager), Drakil (shop owner), Buzz Lightyear (big investor & shop network owner), Zip (twin peaks mall & multiple land owner), soul (shop & mothership owner), MsPudding (multiple land owner) and many others... So it's not all 'take-take-take' as you seem to cynically assume it is. All these guys have lots of globals in 2020 already, as verified on Entropia Life. They are all contributing to the same loot pool you are.

You didn't really address many of these, your posts were mostly aimed at implying things about my true intentions, cherry picking the data to try to paint the picture that you want people to perceive.

Now... I did re-read the whole thing from start to finish and I can see more clearly now that it is more specifically the Deed system that you are taking aim at. Fine, I may not have been totally clear on that the whole time... It seemed to me that you were beating the drum against all 'investors' in general since you kept referring to 'investors' vs 'players', and the fact that 'investors' always win, while 'players' always lose. I took that literally and in my mind I understood that you were referring to those that did any one of those things that a person can do in the game that could qualify as an 'investment'.

So, points #1, #2, #4 and #5 would be more relevant in this case. #3, probably not so much. Though it's impossible to confirm that the majority of Deed holders do not play at all, this is an assumption you make. I myself think this to be an erroneous assumption, but as I said, it's impossible to prove cause we don't know who all the Deed holders are. However a quick survey of the people I've named in number #5 above undoubtedly would show that these types of investors also do ordinarily hold on to a variety of Deeds at any given time.

I will maintain my point that this isn't the right target. MA wanted to raise money, they sold shares of Calypso, I don't see anything wrong with that. This $6M usd was used to make the game better for everyone, at no additional cost to the 'players'.

Legends
 
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You were the one who started attacking me personally by facetiously commenting on my altruism, so the whole thing started as a personal attack. I never made any attacks toward your person until then.

Actually this is not true.
Here's my very first post:

On the contrary, this IS exactly the point. :wise:

But I'm not even gonna start getting into this discussion AGAIN...

Sorry, don't pay attention to what I'm saying, I was just passing by.. :rolleyes:

Which you replied to:

Keyword here is 'Most', which implies 'not all'. But you don't read so I'm not gonna bother. I'm just pointing this out for other people's benefit.

Lots of the profit came from other sources, I'd say the CLDs only represents about 50% of that profit, rest came from elsewhere...

What could easily be interpreted as the FIRST personal attack. :)
which is why I answered:

You're so altruistic... It's a beautiful thing to see. :tiphat:

I'll probably answer the other points, but later since I don't have anymore time now.
 
Popcorn for everyone get it while its flaming hot! :laugh:
:handgun::rocket:
 
There is nothing to hinder a player to buy some shares in a planet and become an investor. And have some peds back from his play / spending . so the poor /rich player debate is just stupid



Players here are free to do whatever they want


BTW support MA , depo
dont expect every klick to be profit

And besides we have the cp deeds now.. 18 peds or so to get a deed.. Sweaters can have deeds. Make your fortune from time (if you have it).
 
I think fighting other people's bank accounts with your bank account is exactly what you (and all deeds owners) are doing.

To me the Deeds are the same as PvP, but done in a sneaky, underhanded way.

What an utter rubbish!!

Without the deed holders entropia would have gone bankrupt!!
There would be no more PVP at all!
 
What an utter rubbish!!

Without the deed holders entropia would have gone bankrupt!!
There would be no more PVP at all!

Thank you Captain Obvious. :wise:

It may seem contradictory, but it's quite possible that something that saved the game might end up killing it.
I hope I'm wrong. :dunce:

Not everything is black or white, things are often complex and full of nuances.
If it's too complicated for you to understand, it's not worth the headache. :rolleyes:
 
And besides we have the cp deeds now.. 18 peds or so to get a deed.. Sweaters can have deeds. Make your fortune from time (if you have it).

I think it would be a good idea to stop throwing out catch-all phrases that say everything and nothing at the same time.

For the tenth time, it's not about whether everyone has access to the deed or not.
Although I think the answer is clearly no.

But rather the question is how much impact it has on the GAME.
That is, how much it impacts people who just want to PLAY, and not invest or use Entropia as a trading platform.

Now, since you take the example of CP deeds and sweater, ok, I'll answer this.

A fresh noob needs almost 3 hours to collect 1K sweat, which he can sell for about 1PED.
That's roughly 54 hours of sweat to buy 1 CP Deed.
What does that deed get you?
0.01 PED a week? Or even a day? I don't remember.
At 0.01 a day, that's like $0.03 a month. :wtg:

Let's be serious, I can make 15 times as much money picking up empty bottles on the street for 10 minutes. :broke:

So no matter what anyone says, Deeds are for big investors, people who can buy hundreds or thousands of them.
 
Thank you Captain Obvious. :wise:

It may seem contradictory, but it's quite possible that something that saved the game might end up killing it.
I hope I'm wrong.

Not everything is black or white, things are often complex and full of nuances.
If it's too complicated for you to understand, it's not worth the headache. :rolleyes:

Ok, I guess I missed that part.

But still I don't think that CLD's are the reason this game will die.
On the contrary. I think it has kept entropia alive for longer.

There are many other things that will kill this game instead.

We will all die of boredom. That will end the game.
 
2. there always was a silent rake of either 2.5% or 3% on Eudoria (not sure which it is), the only difference now is that 50% of those proceeds is now split among the CLD owners, but it's the same rake as before, nothing changed. What MindArk did there was just raise funds by selling 50% of Calypso (via the 60,000 CLDs) to further expand the game.

I think the only real interesting point about what I'm saying is #2.

Cause you're talking a lot about the original investors, which is not the point.
The first deeds weren't introduced until 2011.

Although I don't quite agree with that point either.
You should not confuse profit with turnover.
If tomorrow I decide to deposit $100K in the game, MA will earn absolutely nothing other than the small percentage they take at the very moment of the deposit.
As long as I don't lose (by playing) any of this money, MA will not make any profit.

So of course I agree that it will eventually help make the game "grow" in terms of content etc...
But again, that's absolutely not the point.
When I was talking about Player vs. Investor, this is just a picture to explain the current state of the game mainly concerning the Deeds.

I could very well (and some do) deposit $20K and buy Deeds, wait for the dividends to make me a good amount of money.
Resell the Deeds, withdraw my $20K initial amount.
Buy new Deeds with the profit, etc...
MA won't have anything to gain from the deal and yet I would have withdrawn a lot of money from the game.
And I find it hard to believe that players don't feel the impact on their returns...

So now you're saying that the Deeds dividends are paid directly from MA's profits.
That they simply cut their Eudoria income in half.

Okay, that's probably what they said, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but then again I find that hard to believe.
Especially since, as far as I know, their profits have only increased since then.

From my own experience, and everything I hear from other players around me.
I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform. :deal:

Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.
(because I remind you that constant losses in PLAYING was the starting point of this thread).

This is a fact, investors/traders win, players lose.

And now about the risks of investing in Deeds, of course they exist, but frankly the Deeds are probably one of the most stable priced things.
Everybody who's bought Deeds from the start has made a big buck on the resale.
And to me the only real risk would be a bankruptcy of the game, which nobody wants, and which seems relatively improbable in the near future.

It seems obvious to me, and to the vast majority of PLAYERS who spend their ingame time hunting for example, that the risk of loss in PLAYING is almost 100%, while the risk for investors/traders (you name it) is very low.
 
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It seems obvious to me, and to the vast majority of PLAYERS who spend their ingame time hunting for example, that the risk of loss in PLAYING is almost 100%, while the risk for investors/traders (you name it) is very low.

In a Real Cash Economy simulator, why do you consider trading and investing not valid ways to "play" the game? One could argue that in many ways the game is designed for traders/investors.



Also I would argue that the entire game is PvP, and anyone who says otherwise is probably losing PEDs.
 
Cirrus, I can pretty much say about myself that I'm far from unique.
I can also say that without deeds, my Entropia career would have ended in 2012.
I'm pretty sure that many more are still in the game because of their deeds.

Sure, there's people taking money out from deeds revenue.
But there's also been taken out a LOT of money from trade revenue. Or loot 1.0 hunting revenue.
Or just lucky big hofs revenue.

So, whats the point about CLD's killing the game?
CLD are actually tying people up to the game. People commit themselfves to play when buying deeds.

It works both ways, but you only seem to see the downside and are blind for the upside.
 
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I could very well (and some do) deposit $20K and buy Deeds, wait for the dividends to make me a good amount of money.
Resell the Deeds, withdraw my $20K initial amount.
Buy new Deeds with the profit, etc...
MA won't have anything to gain from the deal and yet I would have withdrawn a lot of money from the game.
And I find it hard to believe that players don't feel the impact on their returns...

So now you're saying that the Deeds dividends are paid directly from MA's profits.
That they simply cut their Eudoria income in half.

Okay, that's probably what they said, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but then again I find that hard to believe.
Especially since, as far as I know, their profits have only increased since then.

From my own experience, and everything I hear from other players around me.
I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform. :deal:

Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.

You make very good arguments here and I understand and appreciate them. I think this is a lot more helpful and constructive then some of the hurtful facetious remarks you leveled at me earlier, so :thumbup:

Unfortunately, we are both going on assumptions which neither of us can really prove.

Wizz is right though, this is something I failed to bring up earlier but I've thought about many times in the past. A lot of players who got mad at MA earlier when loot 2.0 was released, and again when they changed the camera system, converted their PEDs to Deeds rather then withdrawing it, because they weren't sure yet about quitting forever. I think there are 2 things in Entropia that hold people 'hostage', the Skills they have, which is extremely difficult to extract and sell, and 'investments' that people have made or can make, which really is not bad ROI at all. It keeps these guys coming back now and again and keeps the game going.

But Max Hec won the the argument on the previous page, so it's all moot now :laugh:

:monkey::monkey::monkey:
 
I think it would be a good idea to stop throwing out catch-all phrases that say everything and nothing at the same time.

For the tenth time, it's not about whether everyone has access to the deed or not.
Although I think the answer is clearly no.

But rather the question is how much impact it has on the GAME.
That is, how much it impacts people who just want to PLAY, and not invest or use Entropia as a trading platform.

Now, since you take the example of CP deeds and sweater, ok, I'll answer this.

A fresh noob needs almost 3 hours to collect 1K sweat, which he can sell for about 1PED.
That's roughly 54 hours of sweat to buy 1 CP Deed.
What does that deed get you?
0.01 PED a week? Or even a day? I don't remember.
At 0.01 a day, that's like $0.03 a month. :wtg:

Let's be serious, I can make 15 times as much money picking up empty bottles on the street for 10 minutes. :broke:

So no matter what anyone says, Deeds are for big investors, people who can buy hundreds or thousands of them.

I bought 100 Clds when they first came out. Even had a shop on Monria and a landarea on Caly.

Did I stop playing the game? Nope, I have accumulated 360k skills and was really active.
What we are all trying to say is.. there is black, there is white, but there is also grey, (and rainbows rainbows!)
You can play the game and make money from deeds/shops/landareas at the same time.

The CP example was an example of how everyone can have deeds now, and thus a brighter future. Because at the end of the day, you want some fun. Investing in some deeds can give you fun, because what you spend today, you get back tomorrow from the deeds. In other words , you don't have to do "the job" because you'll get some income every day/week to play with. So you can make mistakes, blow your peds at the crafting machine, don't do the whole excel spreadsheet thing.

If you want to do the spreadsheet thing and do "the job" , fine. But realise that a lot of deedholders are simply also players. And they spend their ped.
 
I bought 100 Clds when they first came out. Even had a shop on Monria and a landarea on Caly.

Did I stop playing the game? Nope, I have accumulated 360k skills and was really active.
What we are all trying to say is.. there is black, there is white, but there is also grey, (and rainbows rainbows!)
You can play the game and make money from deeds/shops/landareas at the same time.

The CP example was an example of how everyone can have deeds now, and thus a brighter future. Because at the end of the day, you want some fun. Investing in some deeds can give you fun, because what you spend today, you get back tomorrow from the deeds. In other words , you don't have to do "the job" because you'll get some income every day/week to play with. So you can make mistakes, blow your peds at the crafting machine, don't do the whole excel spreadsheet thing.

If you want to do the spreadsheet thing and do "the job" , fine. But realise that a lot of deedholders are simply also players. And they spend their ped.

Yeah I brought this up earlier, more specifically, I had put it in these terms:

5. the 'investors' bring large sums of money into the game and some of it does end up getting re-distributed to the 'players'. I know many land owners and shop owners who actively hunt, mine and generally give back in many ways, like Ant (monria owner), Spacejanitor (land owner), Queenb (RT instance and shop owner), Ravenjade (RT instance & shop network owner), morey (fund investor, mall manager), Drakil (shop owner), Buzz Lightyear (big investor & shop network owner), Zip (twin peaks mall & multiple land owner), soul (shop & mothership owner), MsPudding (multiple land owner) and many others... So it's not all 'take-take-take' as you seem to cynically assume it is. All these guys have lots of globals in 2020 already, as verified on Entropia Life. They are all contributing to the same loot pool you are.

He can correct me if I'm wrong but to this, I believe Cirrus says:

I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform. :deal:

Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.

Fine.

One key assumption that Cirrus' whole argument against Deeds hinges on is that most Deed holders probably aren't players... There is no way to prove that. Just like there is no way to prove that MindArk's rake on Calypso is the same before and after CLDs were introduced. I (we) think that it is, because they said so, but I guess some think that it isn't.

But, let's put that aside for one minute and let's ask this question:

What's a better solution?

PS: I think we are still on-topic here, title of this thread is 'Expectation', i.e. what to expect if you play this game. Anyways, if my last question is considered to lead us off-topic, then I guess we'll just leave it in as a rhetorical question and leave it unanswered.
 
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Hi again,

I'm shocked about the feedback you guys provide.

I wanted to enlight with my post that I want just to hunt, hunt and hunt again. Doing other activities is like you start playing with multiple characters.

I can say now I have some extra knowledge about how the system works and as a new player I'll lose constantly and this will come to at 0% of losing once you increase efficiency, looter and skills.

To be able to get your looter at 75+ you will have to invest a LOT to go there fast, by hunting 10-20h daily, or make a long plan and FOLLOW IT. Deposit money will have to be there, or just wait for events that can keep you with lower % of loses.

Because of the RL playground where everything is paying with RMoney, players always will keep "secrets".

What is clear, as a new player who wants to hunt, mine or craft will be always on negative and MU won't make any difference. Playing as addicted, you have to read my first post cause those will be your expenses for playing Entropia.

My opinion is the new players pay the bill for the UBERS profit. 5% of every deposit si MA revenue.

Regards,
Cyaron
 
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