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Thread: Expectation

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
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    And besides we have the cp deeds now.. 18 peds or so to get a deed.. Sweaters can have deeds. Make your fortune from time (if you have it).
    I think it would be a good idea to stop throwing out catch-all phrases that say everything and nothing at the same time.

    For the tenth time, it's not about whether everyone has access to the deed or not.
    Although I think the answer is clearly no.

    But rather the question is how much impact it has on the GAME.
    That is, how much it impacts people who just want to PLAY, and not invest or use Entropia as a trading platform.

    Now, since you take the example of CP deeds and sweater, ok, I'll answer this.

    A fresh noob needs almost 3 hours to collect 1K sweat, which he can sell for about 1PED.
    That's roughly 54 hours of sweat to buy 1 CP Deed.
    What does that deed get you?
    0.01 PED a week? Or even a day? I don't remember.
    At 0.01 a day, that's like $0.03 a month.

    Let's be serious, I can make 15 times as much money picking up empty bottles on the street for 10 minutes.

    So no matter what anyone says, Deeds are for big investors, people who can buy hundreds or thousands of them.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Hec View Post
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    Popcorn for everyone get it while its flaming hot!

    Thank you, we'll need it..

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    Thank you Captain Obvious.

    It may seem contradictory, but it's quite possible that something that saved the game might end up killing it.
    I hope I'm wrong.

    Not everything is black or white, things are often complex and full of nuances.
    If it's too complicated for you to understand, it's not worth the headache.
    Ok, I guess I missed that part.

    But still I don't think that CLD's are the reason this game will die.
    On the contrary. I think it has kept entropia alive for longer.

    There are many other things that will kill this game instead.

    We will all die of boredom. That will end the game.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    2. there always was a silent rake of either 2.5% or 3% on Eudoria (not sure which it is), the only difference now is that 50% of those proceeds is now split among the CLD owners, but it's the same rake as before, nothing changed. What MindArk did there was just raise funds by selling 50% of Calypso (via the 60,000 CLDs) to further expand the game.
    I think the only real interesting point about what I'm saying is #2.

    Cause you're talking a lot about the original investors, which is not the point.
    The first deeds weren't introduced until 2011.

    Although I don't quite agree with that point either.
    You should not confuse profit with turnover.
    If tomorrow I decide to deposit $100K in the game, MA will earn absolutely nothing other than the small percentage they take at the very moment of the deposit.
    As long as I don't lose (by playing) any of this money, MA will not make any profit.

    So of course I agree that it will eventually help make the game "grow" in terms of content etc...
    But again, that's absolutely not the point.
    When I was talking about Player vs. Investor, this is just a picture to explain the current state of the game mainly concerning the Deeds.

    I could very well (and some do) deposit $20K and buy Deeds, wait for the dividends to make me a good amount of money.
    Resell the Deeds, withdraw my $20K initial amount.
    Buy new Deeds with the profit, etc...
    MA won't have anything to gain from the deal and yet I would have withdrawn a lot of money from the game.
    And I find it hard to believe that players don't feel the impact on their returns...

    So now you're saying that the Deeds dividends are paid directly from MA's profits.
    That they simply cut their Eudoria income in half.

    Okay, that's probably what they said, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but then again I find that hard to believe.
    Especially since, as far as I know, their profits have only increased since then.

    From my own experience, and everything I hear from other players around me.
    I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform.

    Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.
    (because I remind you that constant losses in PLAYING was the starting point of this thread).

    This is a fact, investors/traders win, players lose.

    And now about the risks of investing in Deeds, of course they exist, but frankly the Deeds are probably one of the most stable priced things.
    Everybody who's bought Deeds from the start has made a big buck on the resale.
    And to me the only real risk would be a bankruptcy of the game, which nobody wants, and which seems relatively improbable in the near future.

    It seems obvious to me, and to the vast majority of PLAYERS who spend their ingame time hunting for example, that the risk of loss in PLAYING is almost 100%, while the risk for investors/traders (you name it) is very low.
    Last edited by ~ Cirrus ~; 02-17-2020 at 18:11.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    It seems obvious to me, and to the vast majority of PLAYERS who spend their ingame time hunting for example, that the risk of loss in PLAYING is almost 100%, while the risk for investors/traders (you name it) is very low.
    In a Real Cash Economy simulator, why do you consider trading and investing not valid ways to "play" the game? One could argue that in many ways the game is designed for traders/investors.



    Also I would argue that the entire game is PvP, and anyone who says otherwise is probably losing PEDs.

  6. #56
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    Cirrus, I can pretty much say about myself that I'm far from unique.
    I can also say that without deeds, my Entropia career would have ended in 2012.
    I'm pretty sure that many more are still in the game because of their deeds.

    Sure, there's people taking money out from deeds revenue.
    But there's also been taken out a LOT of money from trade revenue. Or loot 1.0 hunting revenue.
    Or just lucky big hofs revenue.

    So, whats the point about CLD's killing the game?
    CLD are actually tying people up to the game. People commit themselfves to play when buying deeds.

    It works both ways, but you only seem to see the downside and are blind for the upside.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    I could very well (and some do) deposit $20K and buy Deeds, wait for the dividends to make me a good amount of money.
    Resell the Deeds, withdraw my $20K initial amount.
    Buy new Deeds with the profit, etc...
    MA won't have anything to gain from the deal and yet I would have withdrawn a lot of money from the game.
    And I find it hard to believe that players don't feel the impact on their returns...

    So now you're saying that the Deeds dividends are paid directly from MA's profits.
    That they simply cut their Eudoria income in half.

    Okay, that's probably what they said, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but then again I find that hard to believe.
    Especially since, as far as I know, their profits have only increased since then.

    From my own experience, and everything I hear from other players around me.
    I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform.

    Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.
    You make very good arguments here and I understand and appreciate them. I think this is a lot more helpful and constructive then some of the hurtful facetious remarks you leveled at me earlier, so

    Unfortunately, we are both going on assumptions which neither of us can really prove.

    Wizz is right though, this is something I failed to bring up earlier but I've thought about many times in the past. A lot of players who got mad at MA earlier when loot 2.0 was released, and again when they changed the camera system, converted their PEDs to Deeds rather then withdrawing it, because they weren't sure yet about quitting forever. I think there are 2 things in Entropia that hold people 'hostage', the Skills they have, which is extremely difficult to extract and sell, and 'investments' that people have made or can make, which really is not bad ROI at all. It keeps these guys coming back now and again and keeps the game going.

    But Max Hec won the the argument on the previous page, so it's all moot now

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    I think it would be a good idea to stop throwing out catch-all phrases that say everything and nothing at the same time.

    For the tenth time, it's not about whether everyone has access to the deed or not.
    Although I think the answer is clearly no.

    But rather the question is how much impact it has on the GAME.
    That is, how much it impacts people who just want to PLAY, and not invest or use Entropia as a trading platform.

    Now, since you take the example of CP deeds and sweater, ok, I'll answer this.

    A fresh noob needs almost 3 hours to collect 1K sweat, which he can sell for about 1PED.
    That's roughly 54 hours of sweat to buy 1 CP Deed.
    What does that deed get you?
    0.01 PED a week? Or even a day? I don't remember.
    At 0.01 a day, that's like $0.03 a month.

    Let's be serious, I can make 15 times as much money picking up empty bottles on the street for 10 minutes.

    So no matter what anyone says, Deeds are for big investors, people who can buy hundreds or thousands of them.
    I bought 100 Clds when they first came out. Even had a shop on Monria and a landarea on Caly.

    Did I stop playing the game? Nope, I have accumulated 360k skills and was really active.
    What we are all trying to say is.. there is black, there is white, but there is also grey, (and rainbows rainbows!)
    You can play the game and make money from deeds/shops/landareas at the same time.

    The CP example was an example of how everyone can have deeds now, and thus a brighter future. Because at the end of the day, you want some fun. Investing in some deeds can give you fun, because what you spend today, you get back tomorrow from the deeds. In other words , you don't have to do "the job" because you'll get some income every day/week to play with. So you can make mistakes, blow your peds at the crafting machine, don't do the whole excel spreadsheet thing.

    If you want to do the spreadsheet thing and do "the job" , fine. But realise that a lot of deedholders are simply also players. And they spend their ped.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
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    I bought 100 Clds when they first came out. Even had a shop on Monria and a landarea on Caly.

    Did I stop playing the game? Nope, I have accumulated 360k skills and was really active.
    What we are all trying to say is.. there is black, there is white, but there is also grey, (and rainbows rainbows!)
    You can play the game and make money from deeds/shops/landareas at the same time.

    The CP example was an example of how everyone can have deeds now, and thus a brighter future. Because at the end of the day, you want some fun. Investing in some deeds can give you fun, because what you spend today, you get back tomorrow from the deeds. In other words , you don't have to do "the job" because you'll get some income every day/week to play with. So you can make mistakes, blow your peds at the crafting machine, don't do the whole excel spreadsheet thing.

    If you want to do the spreadsheet thing and do "the job" , fine. But realise that a lot of deedholders are simply also players. And they spend their ped.
    Yeah I brought this up earlier, more specifically, I had put it in these terms:

    Quote Originally Posted by Legends View Post
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    5. the 'investors' bring large sums of money into the game and some of it does end up getting re-distributed to the 'players'. I know many land owners and shop owners who actively hunt, mine and generally give back in many ways, like Ant (monria owner), Spacejanitor (land owner), Queenb (RT instance and shop owner), Ravenjade (RT instance & shop network owner), morey (fund investor, mall manager), Drakil (shop owner), Buzz Lightyear (big investor & shop network owner), Zip (twin peaks mall & multiple land owner), soul (shop & mothership owner), MsPudding (multiple land owner) and many others... So it's not all 'take-take-take' as you seem to cynically assume it is. All these guys have lots of globals in 2020 already, as verified on Entropia Life. They are all contributing to the same loot pool you are.
    He can correct me if I'm wrong but to this, I believe Cirrus says:

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ Cirrus ~ View Post
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    I personally think that the Deeds are having a huge impact on the game in the sense that Entropia is less and less of a game and more and more of a trading platform.

    Nowadays one feels almost "obliged" to invest a lot in Deeds to cover some of the hunting losses.
    Fine.

    One key assumption that Cirrus' whole argument against Deeds hinges on is that most Deed holders probably aren't players... There is no way to prove that. Just like there is no way to prove that MindArk's rake on Calypso is the same before and after CLDs were introduced. I (we) think that it is, because they said so, but I guess some think that it isn't.

    But, let's put that aside for one minute and let's ask this question:

    What's a better solution?

    PS: I think we are still on-topic here, title of this thread is 'Expectation', i.e. what to expect if you play this game. Anyways, if my last question is considered to lead us off-topic, then I guess we'll just leave it in as a rhetorical question and leave it unanswered.
    Last edited by Legends; 02-20-2020 at 13:52.
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  10. #60
    Hi again,

    I'm shocked about the feedback you guys provide.

    I wanted to enlight with my post that I want just to hunt, hunt and hunt again. Doing other activities is like you start playing with multiple characters.

    I can say now I have some extra knowledge about how the system works and as a new player I'll lose constantly and this will come to at 0% of losing once you increase efficiency, looter and skills.

    To be able to get your looter at 75+ you will have to invest a LOT to go there fast, by hunting 10-20h daily, or make a long plan and FOLLOW IT. Deposit money will have to be there, or just wait for events that can keep you with lower % of loses.

    Because of the RL playground where everything is paying with RMoney, players always will keep "secrets".

    What is clear, as a new player who wants to hunt, mine or craft will be always on negative and MU won't make any difference. Playing as addicted, you have to read my first post cause those will be your expenses for playing Entropia.

    My opinion is the new players pay the bill for the UBERS profit. 5% of every deposit si MA revenue.

    Regards,
    Cyaron

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