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Let Get Real Clear on Cheaters/Botters and How to Fight Them

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~ Cirrus ~ said:
It's weird, these days it's the people who stand up against cheaters who get attacked... :rolleyes:

I really feel like this game is completely plagued by cheating.
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Standing up against cheaters is fine. Attempting to interfere with someone else's participation in the game isn't.
 
Mega said:
Dont try to act smarter than me. You aren't.
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p14p2.jpg



:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Attempts to get honest debateable posts deleted and the thread :locked: will fail.

Giving this thread maximum exposure however are succeeding!
 
Mega said:
Attempts to get honest debateable posts deleted and the thread :locked: will fail.

Giving this thread maximum exposure however are succeeding!
Click to expand...

Expose all you want mate, there's nothing being hidden :laugh:
 
Well now we are right into off topic territory, wonder what MA has 2 say (sadly I dont understand Swedish :( )

May explain why it takes them so long to do stuff - its always raining in Sweden :)
 
Captain Jack said:
You can remote-login to your computer from work on a cell phone or tablet and just keep pressing "interact". This method is the most high-risk because it is very difficult to control most of the other facets of your avatar while remote logged on by a touch screen, and it is easy to be taken advantage of.
You can set up a laptop below your desk with the screen off with a miniature keyboard on your desk.
You can set up a game console controller to map the Interact button and play from anywhere in your house while you watch TV.
Click to expand...

There is an old russian saying - "Determined and foolish can easily brake his own d..k" or something like that (с дуру можно х-й сломать). Is that what you mean, Captan Jack?
 
Lol this thread is hilarious, why get so mad you got caught? And lol Hammer, I agree. But hey all that afk hunting skills accuracy, that has to be it. It is also why some that run in straight lines with a maze hammer also developed some insane accuracy in a two day time span. As for the afk hunting, MA did this. Sadly cannot blame the players for taking advantage of it and running their little macros for 20hrs a day. But to deny it outright when theres video proof, though that seems to be something your soc is good at. Enjoy the daikibas.
 
This thread... really..
I mean come on guys, it’s obvious that people (some of them featured in the videos, but there are certainly many more) are hunting while being afk.
Don’t give me that “I just hitting F in zombie mode” shit cause it’s a load of crap and you know it.
You can discuss semantics all day, call it a macro, script bot, whatever - fact is: it’s wrong!

We can argue about it as much as we want, thing is that nothing will change if MA doesn’t act.
Apparently botters must first use an MA official item before MA takes action..
 
So I thought I add some fuel to the fire. After reading what Capt jack said.

Captain Jack said:
To be fair the OP did a very poor job presenting his case, so MA didn't have much evidence of foul play (except on the part of the OP). Most of his videos just shows him taking advantage of, what appears to be, some other participants playing the game as it was intended to be played.

I, for one, will often grind for 8-10 hours at a time without ever turning on my screen because I'm at work and there is no need to do so. Between appropriate mob choice, Interact, Lifesteal, and sufficient armor, you can literally use as little as one button to knock out a many hour grind.
There are a lot of ways to do it.
You can remote-login to your computer from work on a cell phone or tablet and just keep pressing "interact". This method is the most high-risk because it is very difficult to control most of the other facets of your avatar while remote logged on by a touch screen, and it is easy to be taken advantage of.
You can set up a laptop below your desk with the screen off with a miniature keyboard on your desk.
You can set up a game console controller to map the Interact button and play from anywhere in your house while you watch TV.
Etc. etc.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. Either way, MindArk very clearly established their system to facilitate such gameplay by implementation of Interact, Autoloot, and significant Lifesteal items.
Consequently I think it is unethical to take advantage of other players who are playing within the system MindArk created.
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Now if he is allowed to play for 8 -9 hours without looking at his screen. I wondered if i was abe to a use bot also to mine. So made a thread https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?315737-How-do-you-create-a-mining-bot and got the result I expected, It was of course closed. Maybe I should ask next time what are the conditions for me to use a bot? Do I have to be in Certain SOC? Deposit a certain amount each year? Own a coffee shop?

tenor.gif
 
Captain Jack said:
I, for one, will often grind for 8-10 hours at a time without ever turning on my screen because I'm at work and there is no need to do so. Between appropriate mob choice, Interact, Lifesteal, and sufficient armor, you can literally use as little as one button to knock out a many hour grind.
There are a lot of ways to do it.
You can remote-login to your computer from work on a cell phone or tablet and just keep pressing "interact". This method is the most high-risk because it is very difficult to control most of the other facets of your avatar while remote logged on by a touch screen, and it is easy to be taken advantage of.
You can set up a laptop below your desk with the screen off with a miniature keyboard on your desk.
You can set up a game console controller to map the Interact button and play from anywhere in your house while you watch TV.
Etc. etc.
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Indeed this is very interesting...
That's exactly what bot users would say.
Ah wait, that's actually exactly what they're saying already... :wise:

No I wasn't "so much" AFK... :rolleyes:

Personally, the number of mobs I can kill by being AFK is limited to ONE.
It can happen sometimes when I'm hunting, and I have to get up quickly, so I let my avatar finish the mob I'm on, but it stops there.
And that's the case for most players who play honestly, without trying to gain an advantage over others in very questionable ways...


So indeed what it says there is perfectly said.

BruuD said:
This thread... really..
I mean come on guys, it’s obvious that people (some of them featured in the videos, but there are certainly many more) are hunting while being afk.
Don’t give me that “I just hitting F in zombie mode” shit cause it’s a load of crap and you know it.
You can discuss semantics all day, call it a macro, script bot, whatever - fact is: it’s wrong!

We can argue about it as much as we want, thing is that nothing will change if MA doesn’t act.
Apparently botters must first use an MA official item before MA takes action..
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I see only ONE possible solution, MA must add a line to the TOU to stipulate that it is absolutely forbidden to hunt while being AFK, in any way whatsoever.
One must be in front of his screen to hunt, period. :computer:

So if someone interacts with you, and you don't react for 5 minutes, while your avatar continues to hunt, that's AFK hunting, and you must be banned for a while.
It's the best way to fight the bots, and I think it's the only way.

If MA doesn't do that, then I can't see the point of prohibiting boting.
Since it doesn't make any difference with a simple macro, or any other way like the ones explained by Jack, which also gives you the possibility to hunt almost 24/7 being AFK.

So again, I think that's not only bots that should be forbidden, but AFK hunt.
 
Mega said:
Attempts to get honest debateable posts deleted and the thread :locked: will fail.

Giving this thread maximum exposure however are succeeding!
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I've been exposing myself all over the place and not one person has come out to check on it. :(
 
~ Cirrus ~ said:
I see only ONE possible solution, MA must add a line to the TOU to stipulate that it is absolutely forbidden to hunt while being AFK, in any way whatsoever.
One must be in front of his screen to hunt, period. :computer:
Click to expand...

Or MindArk can put things back to the way they were before. I remember when I first started playing this game...

There was no Interact.

There was no Lock Target.

There was no Select Next Target.

There was no Auto Use Tool.

There was point, shoot, and pray to God you didn't miss, because it cost you PED. Every missed shot was lost (like in PvP now).
So by carefully aiming each shot and making sure you never missed, you gained an advantage over the rest of the player base who may have been a little more careless.
Go back to that and you'll successfully eliminate passive hunting while watching TV, working, "working", etc.
 
Captain Jack said:
Or MindArk can put things back to the way they were before. I remember when I first started playing this game...

There was no Interact.

There was no Lock Target.

There was no Select Next Target.

There was no Auto Use Tool.

There was point, shoot, and pray to God you didn't miss, because it cost you PED. Every missed shot was lost (like in PvP now).
So by carefully aiming each shot and making sure you never missed, you gained an advantage over the rest of the player base who may have been a little more careless.
Go back to that and you'll successfully eliminate passive hunting while watching TV, working, "working", etc.
Click to expand...

I can foresee that we might be going that direction if anti-gambling rulings keep getting more intrusive at every turn. We might have to reduce RNG applications within game mechanics or even remove them entirely. This, however, would in turn make advanced AI bots (TensorFlow anyone) only more successful as they outperform human accuracy and stamina. Seems like a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't kind of thing.
 
Captain Jack said:
Or MindArk can put things back to the way they were before. I remember when I first started playing this game...

There was no Interact.

There was no Lock Target.

There was no Select Next Target.

There was no Auto Use Tool.

There was point, shoot, and pray to God you didn't miss, because it cost you PED. Every missed shot was lost (like in PvP now).
So by carefully aiming each shot and making sure you never missed, you gained an advantage over the rest of the player base who may have been a little more careless.
Go back to that and you'll successfully eliminate passive hunting while watching TV, working, "working", etc.
Click to expand...

I know how it was, I was there.

And I'm sorry to say, but what you're saying here is exactly the second argument we always hear...

Well, MA made it easier to hunt AFK, so it's probably OK to do, and then I'm doing it. :beerchug:

First of all, I don't think MA did it to make it easier for people to hunt AFK.

Second, just because something is easy to do, doesn't mean it's right to do it, or that you're allowed to do it..:bandit:

In some countries/states you are allowed to carry a firearm, which makes it very easy to kill someone, and yet it is still forbidden to kill people... (I hope) :rolleyes:


So I confirm what I said, I think that AFK hunting itself should be banned.

Anyone should be able to react to any interaction in the game while they're shooting & looting mobs.
And this within the minute.
(and by the way it should be the same for mining)

First it would make things fairer, since everyone would have to make the same "effort" to hunt.
And again, it would be the only way to effectively fight bots and other cheating of this kind.
 
~ Cirrus ~ said:
...
Anyone should be able to react to any interaction in the game while they're shooting & looting mobs.
And this within the minute.
(and by the way it should be the same for mining)

First it would make things fairer, since everyone would have to make the same "effort" to hunt.
And again, it would be the only way to effectively fight bots and other cheating of this kind.
Click to expand...

Why do you exclude Crafting from your expectations? It too used to be manual, one click at a time.

To clarify; I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand your point of view.
 
Captain Jack said:
Why do you exclude Crafting from your expectations? It too used to be manual, one click at a time.
Click to expand...

Because MA made it on purpose..
They made that clear, and even created a portable tool for that purpose.

So nobody needs a bot for that, everybody is equal.

Again, if MA decide that AFK hunt is OK, then they should allow bots.
Or create a tool, same as the crafting one, whith which you can hunt without even turning on your computer.
And soon there won't be a single person in front of his screen anymore on EU.
 
Captain Jack said:
Or MindArk can put things back to the way they were before. I remember when I first started playing this game...

There was no Interact.

There was no Lock Target.

There was no Select Next Target.

There was no Auto Use Tool.

There was point, shoot, and pray to God you didn't miss, because it cost you PED. Every missed shot was lost (like in PvP now).
So by carefully aiming each shot and making sure you never missed, you gained an advantage over the rest of the player base who may have been a little more careless.
Go back to that and you'll successfully eliminate passive hunting while watching TV, working, "working", etc.
Click to expand...

Mindark made it easier to cheat so some players decided to cheat. So it's Mindarks fault!

Those that decide not to install third party software to play the game away from keyboard are idiots correct?
 
Reason why they made it easier to play with some auto-functions were to make it possible/easier
for people with disabilities to play.
No matter what they do some will always find a way to cheat, sadly when they make it
harder again those who behave will be the one who suffer.
 
~ Cirrus ~ said:
Because MA made it on purpose..
They made that clear, and even created a portable tool for that purpose.

So nobody needs a bot for that, everybody is equal.
….
Or create a tool, same as the crafting one, whith which you can hunt without even turning on your computer.
...
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They did.

Autoloot: pills and rings...

Lifetseal: Capes, amps, and rings...

Armor: You name it...

Interact: Found in action library of all players.

Literally anybody can hunt precisely the way I do, though perhaps scaled down to fit their budget. I select mobs I can hunt without dying for 8-10 hours (the length of my normal work shift). I use an autoloot ring to outlast the buff of a pill. I then use the tool (Interact) MindArk gave me to press one button to execute the entire function of target selection, shooting until the mob is dead, and auto-looting it.

For less than 100 PED you can do the same...

Autoloot: 0.5 PED at your local Trade Terminal.
Lifesteal: M-Matrix Alpha (L) amp: 20 PED at your local auctioneer.
Armor: Optional with lifesteal amp.
Melee Weapon: Take your pick of any melee weapon from the Trade Terminal.
Interact: Available in your Action Library.
Mob: Any puny mob will do.

Procedure:

1. Map a hotkey to your screen for your autoloot pill.
2. Map a hotkey to your screen for Interact (Pro tip: I find it helpful to put this close to the center of your screen if you're using a phone or tablet for remote login)
3. Go to mob spawn, run some tests to calculate your time to kill. Add a few seconds for variance.
4. Remote login to your computer from your phone.
5. Press "Interact" hotkey at the pre-determined periodicity from step 3. (Pro tip: I find it helpful to put your phone in a desk drawer or on top of a bar stool under your desk for easy access).

You can scale this method to your bankroll, equipment, skills, and desired duration.

~ Cirrus ~ said:
So nobody needs a bot for that, everybody is equal.
Click to expand...
 
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Mega said:
Mindark made it easier to cheat so some players decided to cheat. So it's Mindarks fault!

Those that decide not to install third party software to play the game away from keyboard are idiots correct?
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I apologize that you have thus far failed to understand my presentation. Let me try to spell it out as clearly as I can so that you can apply your massive intellect in context.

I have made three fundamental points here.

Point 1: The OP did a poor job presenting his case.
Point 2: Intentionally and maliciously interfering with other people's participation in the Entropia Universe is unethical at best.
Point 3: Two out of the three videos demonstrate Abomb's interfering with players who appear to be participating in the Entropia Universe in a manner consistent with MindArk's intended parameters.


Point 1:

Captain Jack said:
To be fair the OP did a very poor job presenting his case, so MA didn't have much evidence of foul play (except on the part of the OP). Most of his videos just shows him taking advantage of, what appears to be, some other participants playing the game as it was intended to be played.
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This was the response I made which has triggered the discussion we have devolved into. If you note, my point and purpose was to express that the original poster of this thread did a poor job presenting his case. I hold to that statement.

That statement was based upon the supposition that the original poster's case can be summarized by stating that the videos he shows demonstrate clear evidence of cheating. I based that supposition on this quote:
The Abomb said:
In final conclusion it saddens me there are this many cheaters in game and that we don't actively have MA trying to stop it....
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In the first video Abomb shares, there is some unusual activity which does ask some questions. That I have not disputed.


Point 2: In the second two videos shared, Abomb proceeds to effectively kill-steal two other players whose activity appears to reflect that of operating within MindArk's intended system described in my previous response (point 3).
 
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I understand perfectly.

2. Right to use Entropia Universe

7. No cheating. You may not use, launch or install any third party software, device or techniques that MindArk deems, at MindArk’s sole discretion, to be possible to use for collecting information from the Entropia Universe System or servers, constituting “cheating” and/or affecting the Entropia Universe in any way. This includes, without limitation, if possible to use for affecting the Entropia Universe System interface, the Entropia Universe environment, components, balancing and/or the Participant’s experience. MindArk reserves the right to revoke this limitation either generally or in specific cases.

8. Rules of Conduct for the Entropia Universe

10. You must immediately report errors and bugs in the Entropia Universe to MindArk whenever You discover them. You may not “cheat” or otherwise neglect to report errors or bugs, use bugs, slow connection, Internet latency, or other 'exploits' for own benefits or for the benefit of others.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

What has been going on (probably since VU 16.0) either has to be approved, above EULA paragraphs amended or Mindark can change the control system (yet again) to deal with those that like to cheat.

Can you really hunt Puny for 10 hours with a 15 Ped Castorian Combat EnBlade B(L)? Please, explain further. It is quite a story. So is Pinocchio! :)
 
Mega said:
I understand perfectly...

Can you really hunt Puny for 10 hours with a 15 Ped Castorian Combat EnBlade B(L)? Please, explain further. It is quite a story. So is Pinocchio :)
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Clearly you don't, or you TL;DR'd again.

Captain Jack said:
You can scale this method to your bankroll, equipment, skills, and desired duration.
Click to expand...

Mega said:
2. Right to use Entropia Universe

7. No cheating. You may not use, launch or install any third party software, device or techniques that MindArk deems, at MindArk’s sole discretion, to be possible to use for collecting information from the Entropia Universe System or servers, constituting “cheating” and/or affecting the Entropia Universe in any way. This includes, without limitation, if possible to use for affecting the Entropia Universe System interface, the Entropia Universe environment, components, balancing and/or the Participant’s experience. MindArk reserves the right to revoke this limitation either generally or in specific cases.

8. Rules of Conduct for the Entropia Universe

10. You must immediately report errors and bugs in the Entropia Universe to MindArk whenever You discover them. You may not “cheat” or otherwise neglect to report errors or bugs, use bugs, slow connection, Internet latency, or other 'exploits' for own benefits or for the benefit of others.
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I have not disputed any part of this.
 


It is a shame the people paid to sort this mess out either a) cant or b) wont.
 
Mega said:


It is a shame the people paid to sort this mess out either a) cant or b) wont.
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"Not my circus, not my monkeys"

If MindArk got seriously involved it would likely be an incredibly unpopular outcome.

Why?

Because as I previously stated and demonstrated, Abomb's videos did not provide sufficient evidence to definitively conclude beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that the participants violated any part of the ToU.

However, both his videos as well as his written statements about the videos provide not only sufficient evidence but also a written confession that Abomb violated section 8 (subsection c) of the ToU which clearly states
c. You cannot interfere with any other Participants ability to use and enjoy the Entropia Universe.
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Evidence:

The Abomb said:
...So I put together some videos while I was gone on an old YouTube...https://youtu.be/75rPlgKtmbc

Next video kicks off with someone who was explaining to me in another thread that some players are Semi-afk but in this video that I call - How to Profit OFF BOTS Next to you. I prekilled mobs for over an hour and let the Bot finish them. Funny on how that works and who it is.


...I prekilled a few mobs and got some globals and saved PED.



In conclusion if you think someone is botting check by pre killing mobs and letting them finish for you. If they are semi-afk they will say sorry for shooting in on your mob. If they are a BOT then just do it for as long as they are away and collect some Profits while penalizing these blatant cheaters!
...
Abomb
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Consequently, if this case were examined thoroughly, it would be reasonable to take punitive action against Abomb.

That being said, Abomb's case, however weak, carries a popular sentiment. Consequently any punitive action against him would likely be viewed as martyrdom and therefor be poor PR for MindArk.

Conclusion: There is no benefit to MindArk to "sort out this mess".
 
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Captain Jack said:
If MindArk got seriously involved it would likely be an incredibly unpopular outcome.
Click to expand...


Their game. Their rules.



A Metaphor

If you notice gangrene in your big toe you can ignore it. It's painful but you can limp on and pretend it isn't there.

When you notice your whole foot has gone green, you can hop along or use crutches, after all you still have the other foot.

When your realise it has spread and now the whole leg has gone green, you either have to amputate or that person will die.


We are currently at the 'leg' stage. Mindark could have dealt this issue at the 'toe' stage they haven't and they should have done.

Sure there will be some players annoyed if what they've been doing up to now has to stop, but then they should anyway. If they get punished, I wont shed a tear. I hate cheats.
 
Mega said:
Their game. Their rules.

…

Sure there will be some players annoyed if what they've been doing up to now has to stop, but then they should anyway. If they get punished, I wont shed a tear. I hate cheats.
Click to expand...

This is at least the third time you have responded out of context with one of my quotes. Are you capable of responding in context, or is your argument so weak that you must keep circling back to your implicit bias?
 
~ Cirrus ~ said:
Anyone should be able to react to any interaction in the game while they're shooting & looting mobs.
And this within the minute.
(and by the way it should be the same for mining)
Click to expand...

People can hunt how they want including blindly pressing one key. They definitely are not required to answer chat or respond to any action by someone else. Really preposterous to even suggest so.
 
Captain Jack said:
This is at least the third time you have responded out of context with one of my quotes. Are you capable of responding in context, or is your argument so weak that you must keep circling back to your implicit bias?
Click to expand...

This thread isn't just about you, its about cheating and others can read my replies and make up their own mind on the validity of what I say.

They can agree or disagree. I've watched all 3 videos fully in the original post.

I know what I saw and you can argue about what you like, no one was hunting puny with a sword in them.

Abomb doesn't deserve to be punished any more than The Prophet did for explosing other abuses going on. The videos has shown that 'botting' appears to be rife and Mindark have a dilemma which may explain why this thread is now a month old.
 
Captain Jack said:
Why do you exclude Crafting from your expectations? It too used to be manual, one click at a time.

To clarify; I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand your point of view.
Click to expand...

Crafting afk doesn't have a direct effect on other people's gameplay.

Hunting afk certainly does, because you inevitably end up shooting mobs that others have targeted. That might result in you KSing them, or in you helping them out with some free damage, but either way it is interfering with what they're doing and is extremely annoying, at the very least.
 
Mega said:
This thread isn't just about you, its about cheating and others can read my replies and make up their own mind on the validity of what I say.
Click to expand...

The validity of what you say is undermined by your absence of context.

Mega said:
...no one was hunting puny with a sword in them.
Click to expand...

Nor did anyone need to. Again, context is key. I gave the example of puny with a sword to express the availability of the method I described. I also demonstrated such a method can be scaled, as can be witnessed daily in the Brood cave.


Mega said:
The videos has shown that 'botting' appears to be rife and Mindark have a dilemma which may explain why this thread is now a month old.
Click to expand...

One video asks some questions without providing definitive evidence. Further investigation would be necessary to reach a definitive conclusion.

Two videos show what appears to be two individual players spamming the Interact button, and Abomb quite intentionally interfering with those individual's use and enjoyment of the Entropia Universe. A clear violation of the ToU. There is substantial evidence supporting this, and little additional investigation would be necessary.

Mega said:
Abomb doesn't deserve to be punished any more than The Prophet did for explosing other abuses going on.
Click to expand...

Precisely why I made the point that MindArk taking action based on the evidence in this thread would not likely result in a popular outcome, with two thirds of the evidence presented here (not to mention the written confession) making a clear cut case against Abomb.

Consequently your call for MindArk to take action would not end favorably for your case, as it would clearly call for punitive action to be taken against Abomb regardless of the outcome to any others included in the video.
 
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