Let Get Real Clear on Cheaters/Botters and How to Fight Them

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Captain Jack again.

Thanks Jack for putting into writing exactly how I feel about this whole situation. Saves me a lot of time not having to try and make these points myself.

/s I think the solution for this issue would be for MindArk to have some sort of player monitoring system for whenever you connect to the universe. Maybe a webcam could activate as soon as you login where your every action is scrutinized for the duration of your play session, or better yet, a Minority Report type of setup where the evil bot users can be caught and banned for dangerous thoughts before the crime happens. I'm sure the OP would be all for that... :grumble: /s

Joat is right though, it will be the participants with disabilities that will suffer if all these auto functions are removed from the game. I for one will be negatively impacted if the auto functions are removed and my game play will be severely limited. Entropia Universe is pretty much the only game I play now precisely because of the fact that MindArk introduced features that help players with limitations.
 
Geeeez, ... man u r like a broken radio, over and over that stupid noise in the background, u just cant stop it right? u cant shut the fk up and let the silence settle in? can u?....please if anyone can give this guy all my posts number only to help him get his 50k posts already and just to end it, pretty please...i promise i will advs to others to do the same to meet the point sooner......dooh
I understand perfectly.
i hope u do, but... i doubt, u r that type who likes to hear himself, to fondle himself in the mirror when alone

if
he said : is a green baloon
u say : is green but not quite, the light changes that
he sais : doesn't matter, is green
u say : matters cause if is green and rounded then is not oval
...and so on and on and on, until u come up whit the best u can
u say : a metaphor
A Metaphor
gangrene .
... f**k, unbelievable just fk



now to something constructive
dont try to give a different interpretation than what is obvious,

7. No cheating. You may not use, launch or install any third party software, device or techniques that MindArk deems, at MindArk’s sole discretion, to be possible to use for collecting information from the Entropia Universe System or servers, constituting “cheating” and/or affecting the Entropia Universe in any way.
( is about interfering whit the game mechanics exploiting servers to gain advantage from knowledge stole using a cheat, looking for back dors, methods to steal from game, NOT SPOWNING AN F KEY, example can be the external cheat used to gather info regarding the wave cycles, that was streamed online, that stuffs is something , and MA acted soon to remake waves from basics, putting the autouse tool, autoloot pill, autoheal, autointeracting, is a different technique that exist in game, u dont take advantage of it, u use it cause is put there to be used not to be discussed over and over again by ppl who dont have 5 peds to grind, using those at the full capacity needs peds, eyes, knowledge gathered in time and a wish to spend ) so spear me for seeing a poor logic in many envy and pure minded heads around here, go buy a smart keyboard and is just ok, watch a movie and have an eye for ratters ( proud ones )

This includes, without limitation, if possible to use for affecting the Entropia Universe System interface, the Entropia Universe environment, components, balancing and/or the Participant’s experience.
( these cheats/externals mentioned above, not others, without any limitation, those cheats that affect the servers/system constituting the "cheating" affects the Entropia Universe in any way like enviroment, components, balancing - i cant affect your balancing in any way if i hunt and u name edited cut your little trees or sweat- or participant experience - where i dont see anyone affected in any way for pressing F key while hunt, beside the pure theoretically point where everyone is affected in his imagination by someone who might use a macro for the only reason i see like KS mob, witch can be resolved on spot if is the case, but no1 come up whit a such complain, THO are many many non macro support cases for such interaction durring time, where players did this on purpose, so what are we talking here? yeah ...PURE ENVY AND NOT DISTURBANCE AT ALL ) ( cause that little rat name edited didn't complained about someone doing something to him, he just whine cause some do more than he does, yeah, just superb ), ( yes, booting using external help for pvp, like aimbot for LandGrabs constitutes the AFFECTING PARTICIPANT"S EXPERIENCE and is 100% advantage for the user. )

MindArk reserves the right to revoke this limitation either generally or in specific cases.
( MA is not stupid to put in game some mechanics to be used by tempting, trapping, luring or baiting people into so called cheating for spawning the damn F key just to ban them next day, i refuse to believe that. ) ( revoke doesn't mean tempBAN / permBAN as some of the purists wants. )

yes those are my conclusions, this thread has nothing to do whit EULA, is just a pure and simple bad eye topic, evil, full of rats, purists whit naive approach, unrealistic viewer who shown their true color.

meantime, i suggest everyone to play the game as they wish, in peace, exploring, testing and enjoying as much as they can by not stepping on anyone's feet on the way, and achieve any goal that crossed their free mind.

cheers.
tBANNA
 
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botting is like chopping a tree if you cant successfully chop it in a humidifiable timeframe you won't ever reach the satisfaction of recieving the blessings, and that is a lesson for everyone
 
I suspect you are saying that the joy is in the journey not in the destination (maybe).
I just do not understand what a humidifable timeframe is though :(

For the rest of it I reckon Mega has the argument here.

tBANNA the moment you go down the ad hominem path you know you have lost.
 
For the rest of it I reckon Mega has the argument here.

The great irony here is actually that Mega has the appropriate sentiment (punish cheaters), and that is one I fully support. Unfortunately his argument is painfully weak.
 
PURE ENVY... full of rats... tBANNA

You and your friends should really stop insulting people first.

And secondly, you should also stop this talk about how awesome you are, and how other people are just pieces of shit, rats, losers (you named them many times), that they're just jealous of you.

I don't know if you really believe what you're saying, I doubt it, and if you do, it's probably a psychological/emotional dysregulation.
But anyway it's stupid, people have always loved and even worshipped champions, as much as they've always hated cheaters, end of story.

I'm sorry if it disappoints you, but no one envies you...
 
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Please can someone tell me what MindArk says about Macros ?

Has it been officially allowed ?

Is there something clear in ToU about this ?

I don't talk about Bots here (even if there's no difference in reality, the result is the same..), just Macro, especially for hunt. (and maybe for mining)

Thanx.
 
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Please can someone tell me what MindArk says about Macros ?

Has it been officially allowed ?

Is there something clear in ToU about this ?

I don't talk about Bots here (even if there's no difference in reality, the result is the same..), just Macro, especially for hunt. (and maybe for mining)

Thanx.
macro bot autoclicker same thing not allowed
 
You and your friends should really stop insulting people first.

And secondly, you should also stop this talk about how awesome you are, and how other people are just pieces of shit, rats, losers (you named them many times), that they're just jealous of you.

I don't know if you really believe what you're saying, I doubt it, and if you do, it's probably a psychological/emotional dysregulation.
I'm sorry if it disappoints you, but no one envies you...

u sure is not the other way around?

let me put this how i see it if we got here again, because no1 saw it as it is, just how they like to be seen.

1'st i was attacked in the first place, and yes i have all the right to react against an attack, proportionally whit the force against me. Cause i did no harm to anyone yet i was the first one insulted, based on what? ( btw pls dont put words in my mouth since i never talked about loosers or shit like u imply), ( and please forgive me if i have something whit ppl who rat out others, or express grudging, i try to avoid them, u never know when the knife they have in hand ends up in your back, in this case my attack was against 1person only and the one who attacked me, no1 else)

2'd yes that behave is a ratting out if u come out public whit assumptions for stuffs u dont understand and wait for others to confirm your theories ( cause we dont have any extra explanations regarding yours or others issues despite the fact i explained in my previous post the logic in EULA, u cant see above your nose, because u need to get out from your current positions where u just yell at something "is bad is bad, i cant and wont do that", others alike ).. so because u dont understand something and u have just opinions about a topic dont tell me ratting out ppl is a proud and good thing. Is not an insult, is just a fact.....also because 3'd.

I just do not understand
tBANNA the moment you go down the ad hominem path you know you have lost.
..just try to
3"d if the topic would have been -macro vs EULA- or -smart keyboard/mouse vs EULA- or anything to make open debates regarding this, would have been much more smarter, and if the final conclusions would have proven something else that half of EU players believe than other half yes, u might got the full support to show something, but not in advance to look like a traitor. Just wonder how this not crossed your mind since i see u here really vocal, beyond an opinion? huh? and trust me when i say i saw this kind of person IRL many times, who run away to yell around to others and betray convo person to person to others just because he had a rotten heart. U wont see me yelling from a balcony what X did or what Y does, just because i saw it or because i believe what i saw is bad, also because i really dont care what u do or others does ( are plenty ways to sort that out if i want to be resolved , but forgive me i dont see any wisdom here in most of the posts. )

macro bot autoclicker same thing not allowed
here Mega should have posted some of his wisdom metaphors like
1 what is a rattler
2 what is envy
3 what is a bot
4 what is a macro
5 what is a smart keyboard

but he is here for the number not for the content seems.
 
macro bot autoclicker same thing not allowed

There's a huge difference. An autoclicker or simple macro performing a keystroke is far different than an actual bot.

Bot programs actually inject or hook the running game, and this allows the bot program to read information about the game, respond to events and perform actions.

Don't put people using a macro to relieve RSI in the same group as botters...
 
There's a huge difference. An autoclicker or simple macro performing a keystroke is far different than an actual bot.

Bot programs actually inject or hook the running game, and this allows the bot program to read information about the game, respond to events and perform actions.

Don't put people using a macro to relieve RSI in the same group as botters...
doesnt matter you're not allowed to automate human actions anyways
 
doesnt matter you're not allowed to automate human actions anyways

How do you account for programs like LBML and Entropialife tracker that read the client chat logfiles, or EUDamage that uses OCR? These programs are automating human actions by eliminating the need to read the main chat logfiles and manually enter and interact with data. MindArk allows these programs.
 
The great irony here is actually that Mega has the appropriate sentiment (punish cheaters), and that is one I fully support. Unfortunately his argument is painfully weak.

I too agree with Mega's sentiment that cheaters should be punished. I don't think anyone here is advocating for and defending the use of actual bots as that is cheating.
 
How do you account for programs like LBML and Entropialife tracker that read the client chat logfiles, or EUDamage that uses OCR? These programs are automating human actions by eliminating the need to read the main chat logfiles and manually enter and interact with data. MindArk allows these programs.

For all those programs there is no interaction from the 3rd party program with EU, it is just makeing use of information, one way traffic.
 
I just think that MA's silence speaks volumes. The can of worms was opened with the interact feature. It is absolutely needed for a good amount of folks in this game, and gets rid of the potential for Repetitive Stress Injury that can cause any person problems from playing a game like this too often (which at the highest levels of gameplay is an unhealthy reality). It is nearly impossible for Mindark to police a mouse or keyboard macro. Almost all MMORPG's have allowed simple Macros in their historys. How do you suggest MA can really do much about this? Get rid of interact? Come out with a stance against it that is impossible to police?

A Hunting and Mining bot to me is much different than a macro, as other have alluded to as well. There have been certain folks still to this day using programmed hunting or mining botting 'software' that was written with specific intent to perform complex functions in this game. A normal mouse or keyboard macro would have no way to repair after a set amount of time, grab items from your inventory that need to be repaired, go to exact coordinates that have been programmed, switch items to mine up claims, watch radar and stop when green dot is detected, many other 'features'.

I do agree that MA needs to get much better about attribute missions. Perhaps just wipe all peoples attributes and start from scratch with a fair system for all, where perhaps attributes are never rewarded for mission chains. Or just never available as a repeatable missions as it would stop this sort of abuse. I find attributes to be a total EGO trip anyways.
 
I seem to remember you getting banned from a player-run event for falsifying chat logs. Could you remind us of the details?
man, again...dont make assumptions regarding anyone without being 100% sure of what u say, because if i start to fight back proportionally to the stupidity of the act itself u wont like it.

u seemed so sure of what u said u did not blinked a bit while u said it,

well let me remind u in case your memory is the only thing u relying on, and just say this:
1. i dont like to post on forum, unless is something important to say ( like this case )
2. yes i react pretty volcanic when i see dumb stupid affirmations or words put out of context ( after a certain amount of insistence )
3. i dont like to see arrogance, at all, is the recipe for ignore
4. i did not had any temp/perm in my EU career for anything
5. i did not exploited the Entropia Universe in any way falsifying or hacking logs/servers/game itself
6. i did not run any event, ever, i just mind my own business and play the game the way i like it and see fit for my goals


now, is ok how i detailed this response to your needs?
 
because if i start to fight back proportionally to the stupidity of the act itself u wont like it.

Well, I know who I've got my money on in that fight. :twocents: and you didn't even mention his postcount?
I'll get 50k posts in 2050 maybe. I dont care about postcount. Three posts a day in 13.5 years. Not exactly an encyclopedia is it?

I dont wish anyone to fall into the trap of letting this thread be :locked:


It might suit some players interests.

I think this thread needs to stay open. I remain interested to see what is allowed and what isn't - there is clearly some confusion about how 'away from keyboard' it is allowed to be.

Is 'under the desk' AFK acceptable? :laugh:
 
I'll get 50k posts in 2050 maybe. I dont care about postcount. Three posts a day in 13.5 years. Not exactly an encyclopedia is it?

Your post count is highlighted because you have a tendency to post memes and videos with little to no value added to the discussion. The eye-catching nature of these posts results in a perception (perhaps unwarranted) that the majority of your posts consist of fluff with little to no value added to the discussion. This results in the perception that you are posting simply to push your post count.


Is 'under the desk' AFK acceptable? :laugh:

The Entropia Universe is home to a vast diversity of players of various backgrounds and abilities. Just because someone participates differently than you does not make them inherently wrong.
 
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The great irony here is actually that Mega has the appropriate sentiment (punish cheaters), and that is one I fully support. Unfortunately his argument is painfully weak.

His argument is 5 cm bigger than yours. There you go. Ponder on that for a while.
 
Okay, first of all I'm a bit surprised that nobody could show me the exact part of the ToU that concerns (or allows) Macros.

Because lately that seems to be the fashionable excuse.
People explain that they're not cheating because they're just using a Macro to hunt...

We have two excuses.
This one, and the one that consists in saying "I'm just clicking F mindlessly without ever looking at my screen, for hours".
Which of course no one can believe... :rolleyes:
Those who use this excuse probably have some doubts about the fact that Macros could be allowed, and in my opinion they have good reason to be suspicious...

Strangely I couldn't find the part about the 3rd party apps in the ToU.
If someone can copy and paste it here it would be nice.
But as far as I know, it just says that it's forbidden to use any 3rd party apps that would interfere with EU.

Is a Macro an app ? Of course it is.
Is it part of the Entropia software ? No
Does it interfere with Entropia ? Yes, it does.

So the way I see it, Macros fall squarely within the scope of what's forbidden to use.

In fact we tend to differentiate between Bots and Macros, but I think that's a big mistake.
A Macro IS a Bot.
It's a simple Bot, but it's neither more nor less than a Bot that will play instead of a human. :yup:

So why doesn't MA do something about it. (and stays so silent here)
In my opinion it's very simple, it's almost impossible to PROVE the use of a Bot.

When we see the videos, it's evidence for most of us, it's Bot.
Or Macro perhaps, and for the case of the avatar stopping everything when another avatar appeared, it is a more complex Bot.

It's obvious to most of us, and we've had other cases, some videos are even on Youtube.
Anyone with a minimum of knowledge on the subject is 200% sure it's Bots.

But the problem is that it's not provable.
It's almost impossible to get factual proof.

So that's where what I explained before comes in.
The one and only way to really fight this is to ban AFK hunting.

By the way, since I proposed that, only 2 people have said that they find it inappropriate (or stupid), including one who was caught on video hunting AFK (probably with a Bot).

And I'm going to tell these people why it wouldn't actually bother anyone...
Because 99% of players LOOK at their screen while they play... :eyecrazy:
Yeah it seems like a very weird way to play to you, doesn't it ?.. :scratch:


Now, a second reason why banning AFK hunting (and mining) is not ridiculous.

Entropia is a RCE.
We are playing money, and this is player against player, whether or not some people still don't understand it... :dunce:
Every penny a player can earn comes directly from another player's pocket.

So this game cannot be compared to any other MMO, or any other game.
In fact, because of this, and in many ways, it is much more comparable to Online Poker. (the major difference being that the only ones allowed to bluff here, are MA :D)

However, for those who know a little bit about online Poker, they know how serious it is to make sure that it is a human being who is playing the game.
Let each player play with the exact same method.
For example, people who were suspected of cheating have been called directly into the office of a poker room to replicate the way they play in front of a live audience for 6 hours straight.


And finally the third reason is, as explained above, that it is almost impossible to prove the use of a Bot.
AND therefore the ONLY way to fight against is to prohibit the AFK hunt itself.


Now, I think that it would be time for MA, to express themselves here on this thread, and tell us clearly what it is all about...
If I was wrong here telling Macro IS Bot, then tell us please.

Let's make it CLEAR.
What's allowed, what's not ? :wise:
 

Well evaluated and well said.

With one exception...

...We have two excuses.
This one, and the one that consists in saying "I'm just clicking F mindlessly without ever looking at my screen, for hours".
Which of course no one can believe... :rolleyes:

Well... I could have written some long-winded story about how I was inspired to play the game and how I proceeded to spend the next few years grinding for 20+ hours per day all by myself and built up my success without anyone's help by the brawn of my brow and the sweat of my hand and my incredible level of knowledge….

Or I could just admit that my avatar's progression has involved a team effort (multiple people) and a lot of monotony grinding mobs that I am arguably far over-equipped for. It has never been my intention to violate any part of the ToU, and I have been very careful to avoid doing so. That being said, your solution to "prohibit AFK hunting" would not provide you with a satisfactory outcome, as my previously described method would not be prohibited unless specifically stated as such.

That being said...

Their game. Their rules.

I always have and always will play their game by their rules. If they choose to prohibit activities such as remote desktop, sharing of avatars, etc, then I will cease those activities immediately upon notification that they are prohibited. Apart from that, it's just a different style of participation in the Entropia Universe than what some of the vocal locals prefer.
 
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Their is certain ways you can tell who is a bot from normal person not all but I doubt ma keep extensive logs anyways. Few games I know of use software to I assume detect if certain software running like aim bots etc. Planetside 2 is one and counterstrike I think they also detect those fancy keyboards you can program to.
 
ating because they're just using a Macro to hunt...

We have two excuses.
This one, and the one that consists in saying "I'm just clicking F mindlessly without ever looking at my screen, for hours".
Which of course no one can believe... :rolleyes:
Those who use this excuse probably have some doubts about the fact that Macros could be allowed, and in my opinion they have good reason to be suspicious...

Since that F key thingy came out, I am pretty sure some have mistaken me for a bot.
Why?
Because just us well as I do not answer to every stranger talking to me in the street and ignoring them I also do not answer to everybody ingame. Why should I ? Just because somebody deserves an answer does never mean he does. A question of respect, I personally surely deserve my silence if I want it and do not have to even comment on it.
And unless I need to watch my healthbar, It can really happen that I do not watch my sourroundings at all and simply keep clicking that F key without really watching...sometime even a mob train for myself to not have to move around for quite some time....

And even if I do not use a bot, I really do not get the harm in it.
It's not like some "gold farmers" could make money out of nothing here. It's not like you get a better return rate when you hunt more hours and it's not like you get better loot when hunting longer (even have a feeling that the returns drop way bleoooooow 70% if it is more than 4 hours in a streak).
The only thing botters do, is cycle more PEDs than they usually could, paying more decay in that time that they usually would and raising the payouts of the shares.
So nope, I do not see a problem in the wool and leather market because somebody uses a bot on low level mobs, because there is no real market in textures or tailoring.
Or Oils?
Enhancer parts?
Ores?
ESIs ? (think I looted my last one almost a year ago)
Skills ?
nope...if somebody is stupid enough to think he can get stuff cheaper with a bot...let him be
If he can't be arsed to at least halfway get a thrill from a global, his choice..

I said and I am saying it again...the only real way to profit is trading and nothing else.
If you want stuff cheap, simply put an order on auction.



and seriously....who pays for the skills from the Codex ?
From my experience everybody does from his own pocket at market prices....one does not notice it on those 1PED payouts that much but after getting into ranks and 25 PEDders...
I think that is more something to discuss than having 10% use bots

hell...anybody remember those sweat bots ? :D
 
Your post count is highlighted because you have a tendency to post memes and videos with little to no value added to the discussion.

I just thought it was because that was the only thing you thought would annoy me. It doesn't.


Just for the absence of any doubt (I think I am being crystal clear though)

Judge: Mindark
Sgt Reed: Me
Lawyer: Captain Jack Daniels - Payn Inc (you really should get round to updating that on your forum details btw)
Laughing Boy: Any of your friends from the first post:

Video 1 - Alex Udrica Geanina - Payn Inc
Video 2 - Xendar Xen Xal - Payn Inc
Video 3 - Banna tBANNA ARHItARtDES - Payn Inc

Mindark dont have to catch all those cheating, but if a handful are, it is my bet the others would stop pretty sharpish.
 
Well evaluated and well said.

With one exception...



Well... I could have written some long-winded story about how I was inspired to play the game and how I proceeded to spend the next few years grinding for 20+ hours per day all by myself and built up my success without anyone's help by the brawn of my brow and the sweat of my hand and my incredible level of knowledge….

Or I could just admit that my avatar's progression has involved a team effort (multiple people) and a lot of monotony grinding mobs that I am arguably far over-equipped for. It has never been my intention to violate any part of the ToU, and I have been very careful to avoid doing so. That being said, your solution to "prohibit AFK hunting" would not provide you with a satisfactory outcome, as my previously described method would not be prohibited unless specifically stated as such.

That being said...



I always have and always will play their game by their rules. If they choose to prohibit activities such as remote desktop, sharing of avatars, etc, then I will cease those activities immediately upon notification that they are prohibited. Apart from that, it's just a different style of participation in the Entropia Universe than what some of the vocal locals prefer.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
But if you're talking about sharing an account, then basicaly what you're saying is "there's no point in preventing botting since people will find another way to "cheat" or take advantage over other people in a very questionable way".

So I wonder what's the point of even making rules, MA just has to completely suppress the ToU, and let people do what they want.. :wtg:

Let's be serious, account sharing is a different matter, let's fix the botting problem first, and then we'll see what else we can do.

Now if you want to talk about it, account sharing is obviously not right from an ethical point of view.

The best example of this being Messi, since he said himself that he had asked MA for permission to have his avatar played by several people, and they said it was OK.

By the way, he "forgot" to mention the fact that he hired people to play his avatar 24/7 in his "success story" lately... :rolleyes:
He also lied about the deposit part, and his story boils down to explaining, in a huge wall of text, that he spent years reading informations in order to understand what any noob had understood in 3 days ingame, namely that the IMK2 was a very efficient tool... :bowdown:
This is a different story, but it shows precisely the level of ethics of the character. :wise:

And I think that even in MA's team, most people think also that is ethically wrong, but what can they do..?
I mean why ban something that you can't practically prevent anyway ?
 
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Their is certain ways you can tell who is a bot from normal person not all but I doubt ma keep extensive logs anyways. Few games I know of use software to I assume detect if certain software running like aim bots etc. Planetside 2 is one and counterstrike I think they also detect those fancy keyboards you can program to.

I've been dreaming about this regarding PVP in Entropia... :thumbup:
 
The best example of this being Messi, since he said himself that he had asked MA for permission to have his avatar played by several people, and they said it was OK.

By the way, he "forgot" to mention the fact that he hired people to play his avatar 24/7 in his "success story" lately... :rolleyes:
He also lied about the deposit part, and his story boils down to explaining, in a huge wall of text, that he spent years reading informations in order to understand what any noob had understood in 3 days ingame, namely that the IMK2 was a very effective tool... :bowdown:

I have never asked Mindark about if its legal or not for an avatar to be used by multiple people.Its someone else who asked not me.
My avatar is not used by multiple people and I don't have employees.
The part where I shown my total deposits came as an answer to multiple false assumptions that I have deposited millions and bought my way to the top.That screenshot represent my total deposits since I registered until late 2015 and I had other deposits after that period but I didn't ask for additional customer support about that matter because it was not needed for the story, I have mentioned though most of my deposits after 2016 were purely to extract more value from strongboxes and I did not lie about the total deposits.
 
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