Suggestion: Loot 3.0 ideas

Taldur said:

Change your gamestyle and reevaluate your returns instead of trying to change everything around you.

Click to expand...

The game determines the return percentage. There's nothing you can do about them.

6k $ ? Only 250k cycle ?

With that much deposit one could get a high efficiency FEN or MAYHEM item and could have cycled atleast 600k before going to deposit. It all about how you choose to play and how much mark up you put will decide how long you peds last . Oh and going in foma = loosing tt on tax and hoping to get more than tt to come out positive but one should know you cant win against the house it will always have the edge so ine might come positive but if you come out negative you should not complain cause it was your decision.

For me current loot system is fine.

Arm said:

Are you satisfied with the present one?

Click to expand...

No but I was completely satisfied with Loot 1.0 and would rather see it back than mess up the system even further. A "personal factor" has no place in a Real Cash Economy and deposits should never affect returns.

Loot 1.0 did reward those who carefully planned their activities and properly selected their gear, allowing them to profit at expense of those who preferred to rush headlong into action with minimal research. Loot 2.0 equated the savvy and the lazy, giving both, with enough ped cycled, 95%+ without ever switching the brain on.

With your loot 3.0 you want to tip the scales in the opposite direction. Now those who manage to play smart without having to add "newer" ped should be punished while those who think that 90% is normal but somehow can't reach even that in the forgiving and foolproof loot 2.0 should get the more benefits the more they waste. That won't do.

MikeH said:

6k $ ? Only 250k cycle ?

With that much deposit one could get a high efficiency FEN or MAYHEM item and could have cycled atleast 600k before going to deposit. It all about how you choose to play and how much mark up you put will decide how long you peds last . Oh and going in foma = loosing tt on tax and hoping to get more than tt to come out positive but one should know you cant win against the house it will always have the edge so ine might come positive but if you come out negative you should not complain cause it was your decision.

For me current loot system is fine.

Click to expand...

6k dollars deposit during 4 years

Svarog said:

No but I was completely satisfied with Loot 1.0 and would rather see it back than mess up the system even further. A "personal factor" has no place in a Real Cash Economy and deposits should never affect returns.

Loot 1.0 did reward those who carefully planned their activities and properly selected their gear, allowing them to profit at expense of those who preferred to rush headlong into action with minimal research. Loot 2.0 equated the savvy and the lazy, giving both, with enough ped cycled, 95%+ without ever switching the brain on.

With your loot 3.0 you want to tip the scales in the opposite direction. Now those who manage to play smart without having to add "newer" ped should be punished while those who think that 90% is normal but somehow can't reach even that in the forgiving and foolproof loot 2.0 should get the more benefits the more they waste. That won't do.

Click to expand...

1. I was doing better with loot 1.0

2. After some point (percentage-wise), the economy should not swallow the peds, it's a game. If we want to do real economy we do not come to virtual world.

3. Where is my "95%+ without ever switching the brain on" (I did not switch it off, though, just was more relaxed when mining than some people)? 4k peds in account, paid in, cycled few times - about 10k total cycle in two days - and reduced to few hundred peds (in FOMA mining). Was much better even in the previous loot system (and you could be getting it back in hunting when lost in amped FOMA).

In previous loot system (or let's say about 2-3 years ago), if you used a three L13 amp and there was no loot (rare) you would get a 1k to return it to a normal loss.

I am relaxed about gaming and writing here, so the numbers are not exact ( come on, it should be a game ).

I can end up with 50% of deposit and conservative gamers can end up with 90%, but nearly 0 is not fun at all.

Just calculated skill worth with new prices, 6k peds, not 10k-15k , so my net worth in the game is about 10k while paid in 60k and cycled about 250k (all figures in peds)

Total worth/pay-in ratio: 1/6
Remained cycling worth/pay-in ratio: below 1/100 (few hundred peds left)

I suggest: both should be above 1/2 in a fun loot system (bottom half of what you pay should have different rules and MUCH less loss/win chance)

Maybe the game is not for more relaxed fun seeking normal players? (far from switching off brain though)

See my avatar picture... Loot 1.0 was better. Who honestly thinks a 3.0 could be implemented to the benefit of the playerbase? Further flattening and reduction of excitement, no thanks!

By the way, in new loot system, does a 120% amp brings instant loss (because of that 20%) or the system calculates MarkUp in loot return?

Even if so, my mining loot should look like 2-3 years ago !! It is much worse now.

When I joined Entropia, I was expecting a more intelligent, more safe system. I still hope for it.

There are several mint improvement ideas for the game and universe itself. Maybe I discuss those later in a separate thread (the EU's great potential for being a fun game, not becoming a gambling pit, is being lost without innovative new ideas).

Arm said:

By the way, in new loot system, a 120% amp brings instant loss (because of that 20%) or the system calculates MarkUp in loot return?

Even if so, my mining loot should look like 2-3 years ago !! It is much worse now.

Click to expand...

Mark up paid is never returned in loot.


This thread will clear few other doubts you might have.

unufain8 said:

old system was the real dynamic, not this buffon system!
Sorry mate i cant agree with you here.

Click to expand...

I agree that the old system was better, and Loot 3.0 should be much better.

(update: noted from reading a post: Loot 2.0 has brought good improvements as well)

Taldur said:

You're the only one thinking that your losses are only caused by the loot system.
It's your decision to mine amped and go on taxed LAs. Change your gamestyle and reevaluate your returns instead of trying to change everything around you.

I'm fine with the current loot system.

Click to expand...

My complaint is not "losing" peds, my complaint is about a system which drains peds fully and too fast unless you behave in certain ways ( while it is not necessary, there are other ways ). Yes, one can learn those ways and play in conservative mode. Not what I wanted. Not a fun design for a game.

Loot 2.0 has apparently made it worse. It was not like that before.

Svarog said:

Loot 2.0 equated the savvy and the lazy, giving both, with enough ped cycled, 95%+ without ever switching the brain on.

Click to expand...

Care to tell me what game that is?
All i see is , 1000 Ped in - 750 to 800 PED out and to "compensate" for the bad return, the game is giving a 20 pedder, maybe even a 50 pedder, if very lucky... and every 10-20 runs there may a global in the low 3 digit area..
loot 2.0 is far to multiplier dependant and that needs to change...

Since loot 2.0 it's very much predictable what you get in return (longterm), return are more flat and some might call it boring but you get what you can expect.

Alukat123 said:

Care to tell me what game that is?
All i see is , 1000 Ped in - 750 to 800 PED out and to "compensate" for the bad return, the game is giving a 20 pedder, maybe even a 50 pedder, if very lucky... and every 10-20 runs there may a global in the low 3 digit area..
loot 2.0 is far to multiplier dependant and that needs to change...

Click to expand...

You are a miner, aren't you? I was talking only about hunting.

Arm said:

3. Where is my "95%+ without ever switching the brain on"

Click to expand...

My bad, I didn't realize you are talking about mining, your "Loot 2.0"confused me, because Loot 2.0 was only about hunting, so all I said considered only hunting, I don't mine.

The loot system could use a major overhaul , where things make sense (like ark survival or subnautica). You will need certain stackables to create (crafted) items and you need to mine some of it.
Get the three professions in sync again. And low level items should be craftable/lootable/minable by low level players, so they have a reason to skill up crafting/mining. A player can still decide to buy a weapon/resource/crafted stackable from auction, but a level 2 gun should also be craftable with looted/mined/crafted items at the level that player is at.
Right now the loot system makes no sense at all.

for example in ark survival a player can create a spear, the most simple weapon ingame. He will need:

2 ×Flint
8 × Wood or Fungal Wood
12 × Fiber

this loot tree makes sense. As a human you can even understand how to make this weapon.

Here's a simple weapon from calypso (old school)

clericdagger 1a:

Angelic Flakes

Iron ingot


This can still be understandable.. Angelic flakes look sharpish, iron can be molded into a hilt.

Here's a somewhat newer one:

Loughlin cutter one [L]

Basic Strategic Combat Processor
Belkar ingot
Cobalt ingot
Melchi Crystal

So how fast is your cutter? mine runs at 5 mhz because of the super basic strategic combat processor.. ow and the crystals, they are sharp and never break.


and the last one:

armatrix sb10 (L)

25 Basic Sheet Metal
1 Cobalt ingot
3 Metal Ruds
73 Nanocube
1 Root Acid
2 Simple I Conductors
1 Simple I Plastic Springs

So you put the acid on the nanocubes and then some current through the simple I conductors, make sure to ground yourself with plastic springs, or else the metal ruds short circuit with the cobalt and it would dent the basic sheet metal.

Arm said:

Are you willing to say how much you have paid into game and how much you are worth in the game?

For me it is paying in 6k dollars and worth 1.5k dollars and almost ALL of what played with is gone in 6-7 average cycles (given about 60k peds in, and done about 250k peds cycling)

I think being worth 30k with much much more non-item/non-skill worth (15k rather than few hundred) would be what I wanted - at least - and would be much fair/good for MA, giving them 3k dollars for my gaming. Now, it is sucking all of what you choose to cycle!!! (if my present worth was not a gun/skills it would have been gone too)

How can you be happy?

What is your worth/paid-in ratio? Are you a rare lucky one?
=

For a fair game, it should be above 50% for everybody and above 75% for many/most.

This will attract much more new players in the long run.

Click to expand...

Hi Arm,

Bit longer response.


Basically if pay 120% for amps. U will lose alot since you only put in 100% to the system. So if u cycle 100k ped tt of 13's at a cost of 120k ped for the level 13's and u get a 90% return youve lost 20k on the amps alone and 10k in TT return.
Do this twice 40k on the amps 20k tt and your initial deposit of 60k is goners and u cycled 200k ped. Sure u might get some markup, but markup is limited especially with larger amps. and a 90% return on 10000 drops isnt that weird.

Your markup will most oftenly not go over 104% after auc fee's. (assuming u are on untaxxed land) so 180K ped of ores at 104% is 7600 ped in markup.
If u go to taxxed land u will lose faster, go indoors mining ur markup will drop and 10k drops its very low drop ammmount then.

Thats what left of ur initial 60k ped with 200k cyced in l13's its 7600 ped at a pretty solid return and markup. It can be worse.

(Its over simplified since there are finder/extraction costs) Extraction is generally higher in cost with level 13's and finder cost a lil lower then with smaller amps) But less markup to be found aswell.

Rule of thumb is-
The higher the cost per action, the lower the chance for a high multiplier.






If u do this with for instance D-class.


U would get 50000 drops, much better ore composition and more 5 times more likely to get closer to your average return. While only paying 8000 ped of markup on the amps.

Lets say a 92.5% return TT wise overall, and 6% markup 200000*0.925*1.06 is 196100, so a 3900 tt loss.

3900 tt loss on 200k ped of amps cycled 50k drops, give or take 5 times the play time, and u can do this another 15.5 times so almost 80* the play time for 60k ped at these metric, and the more u drop get better the higher u can raise that number.


Get better at mining, u can raise the MU on both, but on 13's u are limited in ores, and frequency of respawns of ores etc so u can drop much less and will more often then not fail.



Im a expert on losing money, cuz i realise i choose to gamble, u choose to gamble, but dont want to live with the consequences.

And for ur reference, since u value it, i've lost 150k usd in the last few years alone.

I do not know who is the individual who brought this crazy idea in EU that we had to cycle permanently peds, maybe because of the Romanian wave during the real period of cycling (atrox, ambu, etc around 2010/2014) which allow to recover it after a while. but this is a bit dated, so it will be necessary to return to a real game system and no longer to an extreme farming of a few for their own profit at the expense of the style of play.

I explain the style of play that made EU or rather PE
before we had time to lose in the game, now the time becomes stressful because the fact that count these losses.
the reason is simple a lot of tricks used in different other games are no longer allowed here.
the run and shot almost no longer exists because the HP of the monsters has grown considerably and the regeneration has become enormous
the blocking of monsters is no longer allowed while it was a full gameplay, make a small group or alone to already find the big monster wanted, succeed in blocking it against a rock or tree etc with some dead when missed was super fun and you spent a lot of ingame time even at a loss but this less visible since you don't kill monsters as many hours as that.
the Decoy which was very interesting at the beginning has become completely useless at the present time.
SWEAT the biggest stupidity of MA
everyone became tanker with meeles or handgun weapons or rifle this is stupid therefore no interest of team different classes

make each leg of the codex either give auto skills as they do currently or alternatively offer a tradeable skill pill option for each... which lets buyer get same skill option choices...

Also PUT ESI IN THE DARN TRADE TERMINALS... and remove them from loot as suggested many times in wishlist threads over the years.

Spawn said:

The loot system could use a major overhaul , where things make sense (like ark survival or subnautica). You will need certain stackables to create (crafted) items and you need to mine some of it.
Get the three professions in sync again. And low level items should be craftable/lootable/minable by low level players, so they have a reason to skill up crafting/mining. A player can still decide to buy a weapon/resource/crafted stackable from auction, but a level 2 gun should also be craftable with looted/mined/crafted items at the level that player is at.
Right now the loot system makes no sense at all.

for example in ark survival a player can create a spear, the most simple weapon ingame. He will need:

2 ×Flint
8 × Wood or Fungal Wood
12 × Fiber

this loot tree makes sense. As a human you can even understand how to make this weapon.

Here's a simple weapon from calypso (old school)

clericdagger 1a:

Angelic Flakes

Iron ingot


This can still be understandable.. Angelic flakes look sharpish, iron can be molded into a hilt.

Here's a somewhat newer one:

Loughlin cutter one [L]

Basic Strategic Combat Processor
Belkar ingot
Cobalt ingot
Melchi Crystal

So how fast is your cutter? mine runs at 5 mhz because of the super basic strategic combat processor.. ow and the crystals, they are sharp and never break.


and the last one:

armatrix sb10 (L)

25 Basic Sheet Metal
1 Cobalt ingot
3 Metal Ruds
73 Nanocube
1 Root Acid
2 Simple I Conductors
1 Simple I Plastic Springs

So you put the acid on the nanocubes and then some current through the simple I conductors, make sure to ground yourself with plastic springs, or else the metal ruds short circuit with the cobalt and it would dent the basic sheet metal.

Click to expand...

This game is a SCI-FI based MMORPG, always was, with planets doing there own thing now.

But ur calling out caly recipe's and u want SCI-FI shit with stone age tech it seems.

And even then the cutter is a terrible example since its a energy blade and not a solid weapon..
Root acid is a fictional resource you are judging by its name containing acid.

dunno why im even replying to this.


I do agree systems need a overhaul, less complex, and outdated shit should be phased out if its not returning instead of causing all this clutter.

Professions should be more insync, and the only way to do that is by going FULL Limited. fuck UL gear its the economy killer, UL only works it eventuallly breaks like items in RL do, its the basis for economy.

UL gear has the basic requirement for continues growth in either item strength so people need to buy new better items to be competitive fucking the basis of the economy and thwarting trust in the value which is killer for a RCE or a linear growth of the player base in line with drop rates else u reach a tipping point that will spiral the value into decline.


Its what happend and the only way to stop the decline in playerbase on the lower spectrum was by changing it to loot 2.0 so the top couldnt siphon money with top items out anymore faster then the lower end was putting it in the game after decline of player base. Well that kicked the ECO even harder in the balls and dropped values and the top earning players out.

Its slowly recovering, but as long as there are UL items, there wont be enough demand for items, and the economy will just be slow since there are to many player generating resources noone needs, so low bankroll spend alot of time selling even slowing it down even more by reduced cycle rate and less comsuption as a result.

The only winners are people with capital, patience and time. Thus favoring traders immensely in the current system.



Please introduce a planet where UL items can not be used thats the solution.

Spawn said:

The loot system could use a major overhaul , where things make sense

Click to expand...

If you are talking that way the entire game does not make sense... We have 'farms' in game where the owner drops DNA on it to spawn mobs that avatars go and actively kill daily... we have mutants in game that were former avatars that got mutated by eating those dna sliced creatures, etc. In the real world farmers plant crops, and if creatures come to them they have to be raised with food, not fed dung.... etc. Avatars can exist underwater for hours.... the entire game doesn't 'make sense' from a real world perspective...

I do agree with you though loot system should have major overhaul. Completely useless loot that drops all of the damn time should get new uses, etc. Time Crystals anyone? How about an entire blueprint book on Rocktropia with no prints?

Some recent changes have helped like making L prints stackable, but there is so much more that could be done.

Lowering TT value of some low end prints may be useful... more might be crafted if residue cost to create them wasn't so high... example... rutic slo (L) Max TT 590 Ped... this is a Level I blueprint... don't think a lot of low level crafters are just sitting on 590 residue unless they've been crafting a whole lot or buying it somewhere...

It's created using Blausariam, Alicines Gel, Simple I Conductor, Basic Bearing, and Basic Target Assessment Unit. The 'control' part of the the ingredient list is the BTAU.... which in many VUs is extremely rare. Why is a super rare loot part of the essential crafting recipe for a level One Item?!?1

morfoc said:

I do not know who is the individual who brought this crazy idea in EU that we had to cycle permanently peds, maybe because of the Romanian wave during the real period of cycling (atrox, ambu, etc around 2010/2014) which allow to recover it after a while. but this is a bit dated, so it will be necessary to return to a real game system and no longer to an extreme farming of a few for their own profit at the expense of the style of play.

I explain the style of play that made EU or rather PE
before we had time to lose in the game, now the time becomes stressful because the fact that count these losses.
the reason is simple a lot of tricks used in different other games are no longer allowed here.
the run and shot almost no longer exists because the HP of the monsters has grown considerably and the regeneration has become enormous
the blocking of monsters is no longer allowed while it was a full gameplay, make a small group or alone to already find the big monster wanted, succeed in blocking it against a rock or tree etc with some dead when missed was super fun and you spent a lot of ingame time even at a loss but this less visible since you don't kill monsters as many hours as that.
the Decoy which was very interesting at the beginning has become completely useless at the present time.
SWEAT the biggest stupidity of MA
everyone became tanker with meeles or handgun weapons or rifle this is stupid therefore no interest of team different classes

Click to expand...

Tiering and powercreep is the reason for immense losses these days combined with fast skilling.

Back in the day a noob took a year to reach serendipity at a medium pace.
U shot a justifier MK II with a cycle speed of jack shit. Compare that to the cycle speed of L guns at level 30 these days. U can cycle 400-500 ped per hour at level 30. 1000 at level 50, without enhancers. 90% returns go fast as fuck then.

Also, FOMA tax will wreck you. What is it at now?

If it is at 4-5%, you should add that back to the loot return you would have gotten, just FOMA got it instead of you...

Thank you everybody for the info, I was not playing in economy mode, nor with an aim for gambling, I played in fun mode assuming the system took care of things "to some extent", and it looked like it did for some time, but it changed (when i say Loot 2.0 i mean newer "ped return system", which includes mining).

The game can be made much better (and it's not just the PED return and safety margins), in my opinion.

I'm not sure if I have anything to add that hasn't already been said. I'd like to see safer returns for non depo and new players, and riskier loot for high end players. Low risk should equal low reward but a safer play, high risk should offer high reward or my costly losses. I think this would make it more exciting when hunting large mobs rather than relying on globals to make you break even. Like 40% of the loot pays about half the cost, 40% pays double and 10% pays globals, the other 10% MA keeps. For new players make the loot more consistent at 90% tt since they can't cycle 100peds on a hunting run. With MU they might get 95% back which I would be more than happy with. Obviously there's no safe way to discriminate depo and non depo players so I think this would be determined based on the level of the mob, depth of mining, level of BP.

Svarog said:

You are a miner, aren't you? I was talking only about hunting.



My bad, I didn't realize you are talking about mining, your "Loot 2.0"confused me, because Loot 2.0 was only about hunting, so all I said considered only hunting, I don't mine.

Click to expand...

1.) hunting/mining/crafting is what i did. Even on hunting there were ~65% TT-return runs (neither bonus shrapnell nor multiplier). However, on hunting the return gets up rather quickly, it doesn't take several thousand or tenthousand kills to get to 90+ TT-return. Hunting certainly needs improvements as well, something like ~65 TT-return should not happen.

2.) MA claims loot 2.0 was only about hunting, but it changed mining & crafting as well. Whenever there was a change to hunting, i did observe a change in mining/crafting as well. The biggest mining/crafting change happened in december 2017, when, according to MA, they made changes to bonus shrapnell.

question: how broken is this universe?

answer: [insert your personal answer here...]

Why people say 90% return ? Is that people using L items? In tax zone? What mu for % got? You make any test on armor/fap decay? You do last hit on mobs? More big in mob/mining amp/big craft, more gambling if not super luck ath. I can't understand why people is crying... if I have not fisica problems to hunt for hours i will win a lot of ped just farming tier components without decay. Earn to play before cry.
For loot 3.0 or why not just upgrade 2.0 I like idea of joda a planet with only L Items is suuuuuuuper
To reactivate economy need L items much better than UL, that items crafted with materials from mining and hunting that actually have low mu, and loot items with tiers on it, like loot L rifle or armor with tier 10 or 7 at full TT
GL & hf all

Stonks said:

I'm not sure if I have anything to add that hasn't already been said. I'd like to see safer returns for non depo and new players, and riskier loot for high end players. Low risk should equal low reward but a safer play, high risk should offer high reward or my costly losses.

Click to expand...

Players can already pick risk on crafting and mining.
Crafting should be low risk when crafting on full quantity (it currently is not low risk with tt-returns as low as 73% in 450+ click runs) , while full condition is high risk (returns can be as low as 50%) and then there's plenty of other risk options in between.

Mining outdoors should be low risk (it's not with returns as low as 60% in 150+ drop runs), while indoor is the high risk option with it's low hit-rate.
The risk can be literally amplified further.

Only hunting seem to not have low risk/high risk areas to give the player the option to choose.

Update: the game is surprisingly sucking peds with odd returns. Won a Halloween ring and spent it on hunting/mining and it is gone as well as 1400 Euros of newly paid in peds (~10K USD paid in so far, almost half of it in the last 12 months, the ring aside) !! The return percentages do not add up so far (yes, given also the MU and even if we add the ring).

And two questions (each with parts):
1. When a ring is won, does it badly affect loot? Is it as if I have paid in 16k in case of Halloween ring spent on mining/hunting? Or ...? Is the ring like top HOF and part of the hunting/mining loot dynamics?
2. The famous 3000 attempts to see the return, does it still apply and is it all-in-all or for each category (hunting/mining), or each mob?

Just finished mammoth Leviathan and Proteron missions, about 3 thousand mobs, highest historical loot in the two missions was about 1k long ago for me!!)

(other interesting info: roughly, ~5k peds of items and ~10k peds of skills ALL IN ALL is what has been left, ~0 peds of consumables/money left!!, the game has been constantly sucking thousands of peds, much different with the initial months - the first few years - of playing. It is as if the game pretends it is fair at the beginning and then abuses this image?!)

You could try to exploid MAs failsafe, the 10k mechanic.
Just mass spam something super small (EP1, puny, tt-finder) for 10-30k clicks/kills/drops and by this get your average cost down drastically which should help to improve the tt-return on the bigger stuff you do.

I know it quite silly to have to mass spam small stuff to get good returns on the big stuff, but it is what it is.

how are you calculating your cycle? I am 100% sure u are doing it wrong
what efficiency gun u use? L or ul?
what looter level you are?