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Loot X.0 - or how to generate lasting mu in an economy

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DeluxeAngel said:
Alukat, I would suggest something for you, start a little google data sheet, do a large enough cycle on what ever profession you like, big enough cycle depending on how big you go/ kill count/amount clicks crafting/amount of bombs dropped And you will see that the game/loot you speak about is already here and called loot 2.0.
Click to expand...

I have an openoffice sheet with data of over 500k crafts, over 70k mining bombs, over 70k mob kills.
The loot i talk about, 90+% min-TT-return wether it's short or long term, isn't here yet. If it were here already, then those 60-89,9% TT-return runs would not happen.

Btw, the last time i've been at the expected ~95% TT-return was about 2 years ago.
 
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Alukat123 said:
Advertising doesn't help much if the game & reward structure is bad.
I'd like to play entropia and i certainly have the peds to play a little, but i usually don't play it, because the first thing that pop ups when thinking about crafting or mining or hunting is "it's gonna be another 70-80% TT-return anyway, why waste that money, better go to play BDO"...
I certainly would play more and put more money into EU if it weren't that bad...

btw, before loot 2.0, when the returns generally were much higher, i played EU almost all week. that stoped when they made changes and 60-80% TT-return run without follow-up payback hof/globals became a very common thing.
Click to expand...

This. I also play other games because of this reason. I'm like hmmmm spend $50 dollars for a week or play 1-2 other games that I spend $50 on a year ago and still has tons to do...
I think more players is the biggest answer, but yea - I just saw a new player make a post saying how they can't get enough loot to buy more ammo and is there something they can do to make it better. I felt horrible because really all I can say is no... no that's pretty much how it will be. So yea welcome to EU and get out your credit card and call for a bank loan.
 
Alukat123 said:
Also, here in the forum are plenty of other people around who are complaining about bad returns.
Click to expand...

Did you also notice its always the same people complaining about the bad returns, there might be a lot of complaining but the amount of people that do isn't that big. And those people tend to be the loudest, you won't see many people who have the expected returns, why would they?

The system as it is these days is more predictable then ever, in my opinion it is very easy to have a constant return above 90% in hunting and mining. Can't say anything about crafting as i haven't done serious crafting since 2008.

Why are you still here? The majority of the posts you do here on the forum is complaining about your personal returns. Wouldn't it be better to take a break from playing EU and come back after a while with a fresh approach? Not talking you to get out, but i don't have the feeling you get much pleasure out of EU at this moment.
 
SuperKanjo said:
Did you also notice its always the same people complaining about the bad returns, there might be a lot of complaining but the amount of people that do isn't that big. And those people tend to be the loudest, you won't see many people who have the expected returns, why would they?

Why are you still here? The majority of the posts you do here on the forum is complaining about your personal returns. Wouldn't it be better to take a break from playing EU and come back after a while with a fresh approach? Not talking you to get out, but i don't have the feeling you get much pleasure out of EU at this moment.
Click to expand...

Are they really the loudest? A friend of mine just sold everything, cashed out his money, left, without making a single post in the forum... Pretty sure the the majority of people with bad returns just walk away silently...

As it goes for playing... january 2019-september 2019 it was ESO i played and since october 2019 it's bDO, which i'm playing right now btw...

As to why i'm still here, because i want EU to get better and to be enjoyable again.

I'm providing data about how bad the game can be and why people leave. I'm not the only one with such bad returns. Kinda giving a voice here for the people who just walk away silently, because of lots of bad returns.

Oh, and because i'm pretty much a full time crafter, i know ofc what issues there are when it comes to crafting. Hunters or miners won't be able to tell you that.
As it goes for me, i don't experience a lack of demand, but i experience being unable to buy the mats to saturate that demand, because of the bad tt-returns..
 
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SuperKanjo said:
Did you also notice its always the same people complaining about the bad returns, there might be a lot of complaining but the amount of people that do isn't that big. And those people tend to be the loudest, you won't see many people who have the expected returns, why would they?

The system as it is these days is more predictable then ever, in my opinion it is very easy to have a constant return above 90% in hunting and mining. Can't say anything about crafting as i haven't done serious crafting since 2008.

Why are you still here? The majority of the posts you do here on the forum is complaining about your personal returns. Wouldn't it be better to take a break from playing EU and come back after a while with a fresh approach? Not talking you to get out, but i don't have the feeling you get much pleasure out of EU at this moment.
Click to expand...

I can't + Rep Kanjo but i totally agree.
Alukat, if your TT return is really bad, try to change your gameplay. MA shared all rules when loot 2.0 came. There is a knowledge part as intended by MA.

Keep going, you can do it !
 
How you play this game is a choice. Its a lot like the casino where you can play video poker and take your time not risking much $, or you can be like the people I see dropping $10 a spin on a slot machine burning through hundreds in a few minutes.

In EU you can take out your big gun and hunt big mobs cycling tons of ped, or you can go sweat mobs for free, hunt for fruit for free, clean out your storage and TT that junk for peds, hunt puny's to make progress on your codex for virtually nothing, spend your time talking on the rookie channel, just drive around in a vehicle if u own one, find a service you can do someone will pay u for, etc... etc... I get wanting to do nothing but hunt the highest mobs you can with a low ped burn rate, but lets face it MA needs some way to make money or this game will cease to exist so they tinker with the ped burn rates and try to make it exciting for players with the mayhem and other events.

I stopped playing EU for six years, I left my acct with over 1k ped worth of stuff in it and what little in skill I accumulated. I logged into the web on occasion just to see if my acct was still there. I am back a week due to quarantine boredom and although I am surprised that some things haven't changed like space, it seems to me that my peds don't disappear as quickly as they did in the past. Now I don't keep a spreadsheet tracking everything I do, but I remember in the past going on an Atrox run at jurra(now I typically only have about 50-100 ped in ammo) and coming back with 50% or less sometimes. That doesn't seem to happen now, so it seems to me the minimum I get back now is around 80%, then the next run I profit a little... Just seems getting skunked is not as common as it was before, so the peds last longer than 6 years ago. It does seem harder to sell on the auction than in the past, maybe less players buying? and I don't remember the auction fees being as high as they are....

I think loot is fine. Guess that makes me the hated fanboy. But I agree with those that say the economy could be improved, it seems it is more difficult to get markup on the loot u get than it used too be which is disappointing....

I noticed on entropialife there are only 4500 unique avatars rated on hunting even with the lower global level than the past, so I can see the economy problems being less active players than there used to be....

This is not the first game I started playing during Quarantine. I tried eve online for awhile, but got bored with it and felt I had more fun playing EU in the past, hence I downloaded and logged back in, so maybe quarantine will bring many others and that will improve the economy in entropia.
 
Alukat123 said:
I have an openoffice sheet with data of over 500k crafts, over 70k mining bombs, over 70k mob kills.
The loot i talk about, 90+% min-TT-return wether it's short or long term, isn't here yet. If it were here already, then those 60-89,9% TT-return runs would not happen.

Btw, the last time i've been at the expected ~95% TT-return was about 2 years ago.
Click to expand...


hehe, maybe then it is linked to you posts on the forum and your account have been market for -90% returns for ever, maybe they want you to leave so the forum become more of the positive note :)


Edit: according to entropia life, I think in this matter, if I where you. I would actually not even try to comment on to much stuff related to returns. As it seems like you have to much opinion and way to little experience :) just a little friendly note


EDIT AGAIN: Also according to entropia life you mining global or crafting global was in Feb? 1 each? Then the other ones was in 2019 in may and in oct? If I could give minus rep I think i would waist it all on you for false propaganda. This is something that can really hurt a game, specially for newcomers

Edit: had to remove my last edit, otherwise i might actually get banned. hehe
First time I have been upset in quite some time :)
 
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DeluxeAngel said:
Edit: according to entropia life, I think in this matter, if I where you. I would actually not even try to comment on to much stuff related to returns.
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i thought the same, but i didn't want to get into discussions with him. ;)
 
Alukat123 said:
Oh, and because i'm pretty much a full time crafter, i know ofc what issues there are when it comes to crafting. Hunters or miners won't be able to tell you that.
As it goes for me, i don't experience a lack of demand, but i experience being unable to buy the mats to saturate that demand, because of the bad tt-returns..
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you do not know enough about crafting either, if you did and tracked things correctly, you would find over the course of loot 2.0 that your TT return would be in the 90%+ range with around a 40-45% success rate. Mine fluctuates between 92-97% tt return, currently at 95.84% for 2020. What you craft, your bankroll and how you obtain your mats will determine your break even point (that hasn't changed since loot 1.0). Any data prior to loot 2.0 is now irrelevant. Crafting could do with some updates though, however the returns fall in line with loot 2.0 expectations.
 
Let's reset the discussion back to the op's suggestions. Long post, stop here if you are looking for a quick fix, I offer none.

For those who like to read, enjoy:

The hunting loot system needs to be redesigned. Loot 2.0 was a step in the right direction, but the 9x% flat long-term average is not working well. And the answer "you decide at which level you play, you can hunt punies and get a lot of play-time with 10 dollars" is not helping much.
The objective should be to create an environment in which the hourly cost to play does not increase when you skill up and use higher dps weapons, regardless of the markup (which you may or may not get). If you are smart and/or committed to play 24/7, then you will also get the markup (which btw is paid by other players and not by MA).
One way in which this can be achieved is to move to a weapon system in which dpp of a weapon is directly proportional to its dps. The change could occur by introducing new weapons, or modifying the existing ones. This could go in parallel with the introduction of other bonuses for "old" weapons in which the dps to dpp proportionality is not respected. This would also apply to tiered weapons, with the effect that the more tiers you open up and use, the higher the dpp of the weapon becomes (and btw the market for enhancers would then increase significantly).

The logic for this proposal is detailed below. Starting with general considerations about what a long term user is looking for in Entropia (Project or Universe, you choose).

To a majority of long term users Entropia is first and foremost a game (a minority of users may understand this as a full time job or an an investment vehicle, but they can follow this path simply because Entropia remains a game for most of the others).
Users of a game look for entertainment and are willing to pay for it. The two must be proportionate: the game cannot be too boring nor too expensive, else users move to something else. Different users have different thresholds for what is "too much" but all have a walk-away limit.
Entropia is a grindy game, with unfortunately not much content. Neither new nor old. Therefore for many users, including me, the entertainment comes from the long term development for our avatars: we are in-game because we like to skill up and be able to use new tools, take up new challenges and in general see the progression.
We love the permanent nature of the Entropia reality, which means no artificial boundaries to the direction in which we can develop our avatars, an engaged community of people who are in touch since many years, a strong game culture with it's own lore and traditions.
It's a parallel life in which we invest time (a lot, I am in here since more than 16 years) and money (for most long term users much more money than we ever put in any other computer game).

Unfortunately with the present system the entertainment to cost ratio becomes progressively less interesting the more we skill up. This is because the game is presently apparently built around the idea of a roughly fixed return percentage, and tool progression means cycling more peds per hour. Therefore the cost to play increases as we advance along the skill ladder, but the entertainment remains constant.
To explain the last statement I must admit that, frankly, the game is the same when hunting a drone with opalo or when hunting a SEG with modmerc. And items drops are so rare that they hardly count as entertainment: most of the times it's something we are not interested to use, does not contribute to our progression and therefore we value only for its tt+ implication.

Therefore why skilling up? Why should we spend time in this game rather than going for one of the richer and more content-focused competitors out there?

To address this issue MA will need to create a system in which the cost per hour to play remains constant while we move up the skill ladder. Loot 2.0 already set the ground for a move in this direction when hunting, with TT output now based on cost to kill.

If MA were to start the game now, they would have a simple way to achieve this: make dpp directly proportional to dps. This would become the incentive to skill up: opening more play opportunities while retaining the same cost to play.
Example: a 50 dps weapon with 3 dpp means burning through 600 ped per hour, at 95% return it means a 30 ped per hour tt loss (btw this is our entropy, which may or may not be compensated by some markup); a 100 dps weapon with 6 dpp would also mean the same 30 ped per hour tt loss, but it would open up a lot more in terms of what can be hunted.

But MA has not complete freedom to redesign. They need (rightly) to protect the players who are already invested in the game and to make sure that their tools don't become useless. With loot 2.0 they choose to do this by retaining comparable dpp for old and new weapons, hence the above decreasing entertainment effect.
But this is not the only possible way for MA: they could achieve a similar result by adding other incentives, so that existing weapons (e.g. the 100 dps weapon with 3 dpp) remain appealing but to a different type of player.
Examples: lower dpp could make skills go up faster (maybe already partially done) and/or could more likely loot items etc.

Since Project Entropia started, it was able to gather a small but loyal supporting community. The concept is unique and engaging. The challenge for MA now is to retain this loyal base, providing them with good value-for-money entertainment while continuing bringing in new players. Ensuring that cost to play does not soar while we progress, coupled with some re-balancing with markup (as per Black's suggestions) could go a long way.

I sincerely hope MA take action and keep a prosperous and attractive Universe for many years to come. I _want_ to be in for the long run.

Take care,
BBB
(an avatar of almost legal drinking age, maybe beers will eventually be delivered by the time I turn 18)
 
DeluxeAngel said:
I do think I have proven my point here. And it seems like you perhaps login once or twice a year and do a 50 ped run and then spend most of the your time making up nonsens on this forum.
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The changes happened in 2017/early 2018. beginning 2018 to mid 2019 i cycled over 450k PED, about 66% spend on crafting materials. Seen that the game has become bad, and then dialed it back from about 20k PED each month to a few hundred or thousand ped each month. So, your assumption is just wrong.

Me playing not that much anymore is just because the game became bad.

P.S.: i do not consider myself a full time hunter
 
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buckaroobanzai said:
But this is not the only possible way for MA: they could achieve a similar result by adding other incentives, so that existing weapons (e.g. the 100 dps weapon with 3 dpp) remain appealing but to a different type of player.
Examples: lower dpp could make skills go up faster (maybe already partially done) and/or could more likely loot items etc.
Click to expand...

From what i've seen so far on RT event, low DPP seem to be the META for single highest loot events, people are using the 0% efficiency grindhouse guns (0.816 dpp). As they bloat up the cost to kill, which in return increases the loot size.
However, no idea if the event prices are worthwhile getting no MU loot.

Anyway, good post ^^
 
Alukat123 said:
From what i've seen so far on RT event, low DPP seem to be the META for single highest loot events, people are using the 0% efficiency grindhouse guns (0.816 dpp). As they bloat up the cost to kill, which in return increases the loot size.
However, no idea if the event prices are worthwhile getting no MU loot.

Anyway, good post ^^
Click to expand...

Reason why no mu is because their low dpp. Higher the dpp the better quality loot.
 
Justine said:
I agree. But how all potential new players will come with all negative post on this forum.
On this forum, there only a small parts of the in game players. Always same guys who post bad comments. More players are fine in game than on this forum.
But who potential new players will heard in first ? Forum complainer :(

I bet, if there was more positive post here, more new players will start the game, just for show at first, maybe more longer after...

Just my think sorry
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Yea i agree this forum does more harm than good. They just complain all over when they dont even play the game....... and ruins game reputation and mood and dont blame the game there was always ways and still is to play the game and enjoy it.
 
The MeanMachine said:
Yea i agree this forum does more harm than good. They just complain all over when they dont even play the game....... and ruins game reputation and mood and dont blame the game there was always ways and still is to play the game and enjoy it.
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a good game gets good reputation, a bad game gets bad reputation. Simple as that.
 
Alukat123 said:
a good game gets good reputation, a bad game gets bad reputation. Simple as that.
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positivity spreads - so does negativity - like a virus - in the end its our choice if we 'play' within our 'limits' (not the cash limits) that allow us to 'feel good' or if we go all out and risk to be disapointed - especially if we think that our chance to win isnt fair

Lets please stay on the threads topic and try to be contructive on how to make things better without reinventing the wheel
 
John B Knight said:
Lets please stay on the threads topic and try to be contructive on how to make things better without reinventing the wheel
Click to expand...

I agree.
Something like this, even though i'm repeating myself,:
Hunting loot events:
10% Chance for 90% return on kill
44% Chance for 93% return on kill
45% Chance for 95% return on kill
1% Chance for 100+% return on kill (aka Multiplier)
garantueed TT-return: 90+%

Crafting (quantity + maxed for chances):
turn all BPs into SIB BPs
5% Chance for fail
1% Chance for 100+% return success (aka multiplier)
36% Chance for 100% TT-return success
58% Chance for 90% TT-return near success

Mining (based on 1 ped per drop):
33% chance for nrf
66% chance for 1,35 PED claim
1% chance for Multplier
add level 14 amplifier > 1,5 times the decay of level 13 amp & 1,5 times the claim size of level 13 amp
add level 15 amplifier > 2 times the decay of level 13 & 2 times the claim size of level 13 amp

would make the game a lot better.
 
Please keep the thread on topic, and leave personal disputes and insults off the forum.
 
Darth Revan said:
Unfortunately you do not know enough about crafting either, if you did and tracked things correctly, you would find over the course of loot 2.0 that your TT return would be in the 90%+ range with around a 40-45% success rate. Mine fluctuates between 92-97% tt return, currently at 95.84% for 2020. What you craft, your bankroll and how you obtain your mats will determine your break even point (that hasn't changed since loot 1.0). Any data prior to loot 2.0 is now irrelevant. Crafting could do with some updates though, however the returns fall in line with loot 2.0 expectations.
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In the very long run it's in the 90+% range. However, it's those bad return runs that suck.
A few days or a week ago, QR 100 BP, full quantity, overskilled, 473 clicks - 73,x% TT-return... runs like that just happen too often.. and don't get me started on those 4k click runs that end in 78-80% TT-return...
raise it to be at least 90% tt-return, then there's nothing to complain about, that's within acceptable parameters, anything less than that, especially runs with 73,x%, is just too low.

That's 2.0 data only btw.
 
Alukat123 said:
In the very long run it's in the 90+% range. However, it's those bad return runs that suck.
A few days or a week ago, QR 100 BP, full quantity, overskilled, 473 clicks - 73,x% TT-return... runs like that just happen too often.. and don't get me started on those 4k click runs that end in 78-80% TT-return...
raise it to be at least 90% tt-return, then there's nothing to complain about, that's within acceptable parameters, anything less than that, especially runs with 73,x%, is just too low.

That's 2.0 data only btw.
Click to expand...

If you expect anyone to believe you post something like this
returns.jpg

NO ONE should ever believe ANYONE posting made up numbers without real proofs or official comments.
 
Alukat123 said:
same happens with QR 100 BP.. so wether it's QR 85 or QR 100 doesn't make a difference...
Click to expand...

Click minimum 5000 per session with 100qr bp and post results here for a period of at least 3months.
 
Alukat123 said:
lol, sure, expand the sample size to whatever fits your pov.
Me complaining about low returns in <4000 clicks run, you: do 5000+ click runs...
gj mate, gj, nice trolling...
Click to expand...

Seriously Alukat, i can have bad returns on a sample size of killing 10k lvl20 mobs - everyone can - for an average to be half way accurate you have to go through multiple up and down swings of the system.
I kill 100k+ mobs a month and that gives me a reasonable steady return rate.

This thread is however not about argueing over who has the most accurate return rate its about creating means in the economy accessible to all hunters/miners/crafters that can help to bridge the gap that results from bad/unlucky choices that are led more by 'want' then 'need'.
 
John B Knight said:
Seriously Alukat, i can have bad returns on a sample size of killing 10k lvl20 mobs - everyone can - for an average to be half way accurate you have to go through multiple up and down swings of the system.
I kill 100k+ mobs a month and that gives me a reasonable steady return rate.

This thread is however not about argueing over who has the most accurate return rate its about creating means in the economy accessible to all hunters/miners/crafters that can help to bridge the gap that results from bad/unlucky choices that are led more by 'want' then 'need'.
Click to expand...

I know that it can be bad over any sample size. But that should change, it should be possible to hunt/craft/mine reliably with 90+% return no matter the sample size. That you got to run 5+k whatever to get 90+% return is self imposed, and because it's self imposed it can be changed and it should be changed.

Just let's take one of my craft as example, why this 5+k self imposed rule is terrible.
the item sells once a month. Success rate is 36%.
so there's those options:
1) - run 5+k to get good return and then spend 150 years selling the crafted items (haha, like that would be possible) or TT most of them, but all the excess MU paid for the, let's say, 4700 extra crafts will just eat all the potential MU of the items actually being sold. Not to mention that those 4700 extra crafts produce even more TT loss, even at 95% TT-return. So running 5+k clicks, will be loss.
2) - run 100 clicks, due to 100 clicks return being very volatile, it's just pure gambling, even if you get some decent MU, it may be loss due to the bad return which may happen.
3) - do not craft it at all
Messi and so on, suggest to just pick option #3, and in this moment it kills part of the economy. Even i would most likely would pick #3 there.

if you change the rule to 90+% TT-return from the 3rd or 5th click, the options change to:
1) - run 100 clicks , with 90+% TT-return it will be wortwhile crafting with the MU it has, the MU will cover the 10% loss for sure
2) - do not craft it all
In this scenario everyone would pick option #1 ofc. The item will be crafted, the materials for it will be bought.

We have the absurd situation about people asking for demand of items, while at the same time holding onto a self-imposed rule that just reduces the demand of items. Changing the rule from 5+k to get to 90+% return, down to 3 or 5 to get to 90% return would already help the economy.
 
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Alukat123 said:
...
1) - run 100 clicks , with 90+% TT-return it will be wortwhile crafting with the MU it has, the MU will cover the 10% loss for sure
...
Click to expand...

And everyone would profit, ergo, no one would profit.

If you want profit you have to craft the items in demand (good MU), mine the resources in demand (good MU), hunt the mobs with the loot that others want. Thats the way you do it, adapt constantly.
 
BackBone said:
If you want profit you have to craft the items in demand (good MU), mine the resources in demand (good MU), hunt the mobs with the loot that others want. Thats the way you do it, adapt constantly.
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That won't change if you give 90+% return early on already.
If you craft an item that has 0 demand, then ofc you won't be able to cover the 10% TT-return loss, that the items has to have MU is a given ofc.

And everyone would profit, ergo, no one would profit.
Click to expand...
1st, it's impossible that everyone makes profit.
2nd, please explain why you think that this would happen.
 
Alukat123 said:
...
1) - run 100 clicks , with 90+% TT-return it will be wortwhile crafting with the MU it has, the MU will cover the 10% loss for sure
...
Click to expand...

Alukat123 said:
...
2nd, please explain why you think that this would happen.
Click to expand...

If you have an item craft that you make 100 clicks and profit with MU, i will copy you, everyone will copy you because its guaranteed profit. That causes the MU to drop, then everyone is left with items with no MU and everyone has a loss.

Thats why i say "everyone profits, ergo, no one profits".

You cannot ask for a sure fire way to profit, or you break the game.
 
You have now provided a few things that explain what not to do while crafting:

1) Clicking low QR BP and expecting same result TT wise of a QR100 BP.
2) Using a low number of clicks and expecting 90% returns (this is not even expected in any profession)
3) Clicking a BP that has very low sales and markup that uses a material with an MU over 103% (copper is sitting at 106% monthly MU, you can't make up the difference with sales)

4)
Alukat123 said:
The item sells once a month.
Click to expand...
Don't craft anything that sells only once a month...you cannot possibly generate the clicks required to get in the 90% range on a consistant basis without either having a lot of product in storage or TT'ing most of the end result. You can get lucky and do 1 click and get the item, or you could get 5 fails in a row and 5 near success before getting the item.

All of the above is why you should not be an advocate for crafting, you have no idea how the system works. Crafting will not compensate you for bad mistakes.

Please anyone that is interested in crafting, do not make the above mistakes and learn from others.


Also one other thing i want to point out for those that may have missed it, Alukat's returns are in the expected range long term, which is why all the experienced players advise you need bigger runs and not focus on the small individual runs...this is also why bankroll management is important.
Alukat123 said:
In the very long run it's in the 90+% range.
Click to expand...
 
BackBone said:
If you have an item craft that you make 100 clicks and profit with MU, i will copy you, everyone will copy you because its guaranteed profit. That causes the MU to drop, then everyone is left with items with no MU and everyone has a loss.

Thats why i say "everyone profits, ergo, no one profits".
Click to expand...

And that's why you should not copy other players. Find your own niche.
Even with copy-cats i do profit, because i know how to deal with that situation.
 
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