Conversation about Varying [Bet] Sizes (Poll)

Which do you think is true?

  • Multiplier was wasted

    Votes: 8 18.6%
  • It does not matter

    Votes: 21 48.8%
  • The cake (kickbacks) is a lie

    Votes: 7 16.3%
  • Other (explain in post)

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • Total voters
    43

atomicstorm

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Notice a lot of people have superstitions about varying bet sizes. See the scenario and make a poll. Let's discuss it!

Scenario: Big time hunter shoots mobs that are 20ped a "click" and does crafting such as Simple 1 Conductors (0.7ped a click). He/She hits a 1000x multiplier on Simple 1 Conductors, which of the following do you think is true:

a) The multiplier was wasted and TT return will be worse overall now since it could have been a 20000 PED hunting loot

b) It does not matter. The crafting HOF (700ped) was compensation for loss and has no impact on other activities. If anything, might have more multipliers crafting as compensation.

c) The cake is a lie. There are no kickbacks or impacts on cross activities. This option suggests possibility to actually be 100% TT long term.

d) Other (explain in post)

Alternatively:

Scenario 2: Big time crafter crafts items that are 20ped a "click" (explosive 4s) and then does crafting such as Simple 1 Conductors (0.7ped a click). He/She hits a 1000x multiplier on Simple 1 Conductors.
 
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I would say definitely B about 8 months ago. Not 100% sure now. It feels like MA has been continuously changing the settings.
 
Im going to say its more based on ped cycled and lost and not so much about wasted mulipliers on going from one mob to another profession. Their is also small and large windows when pretty much you can pull back your tt very easy. Im talking about short term loses like a few days and what not.
 
Other: The system can only distribute as much money as it has in any given moment. The likelihood for multipliers hence increases at times when deposits increase (confirmed by own experience). This is typically the case in weekly patterns of human activity, as well as around popular events. Distribution inside of the system is even and fair. The system does not detect whether above described example scenarios are attached to the same person. In simple terms, it is the same as if said person would buy two lottery tickets betting on different numbers and with stakes of different sizes. Any mechanism considering individual player history to determine "deserving" in any way would be rigged and thereby illegal. While we don't know the exact laws and inner workings, we do know that the company is audited and I consider it likely that part of the approbation process involved a technical control of the processes involved, under confidentiality but strict nonetheless.
 
Any mechanism considering individual player history to determine "deserving" in any way would be rigged and thereby illegal.

wouldn't pure randomness be illegal, because of being gambling? While having a backup mechanism that tracks and keeps losses in check make it not being gambling anymore? :scratch2:
 
D) from my experience no matter in what you lose, system pays you back. That's why I am a believer in the personal loot pool, not that I have my own with items in it, just the system keeping track of my losses. There has to be some system in place that one can not get that 100% TT or above return or have 100% losses, that would be gambling.
Just take a look at the stories, people having some draughts over week or months and suddenly hitting something big.
There was a time when I believed I can force the payout, but was long before loot 2.0 and when we still had the no-looters. Nowadays, you just grind, spend, deposit and hope :D
 
wouldn't pure randomness be illegal, because of being gambling? While having a backup mechanism that tracks and keeps losses in check make it not being gambling anymore? :scratch2:
Gambling as such is not forbidden, but of course rules and restrictions apply. Detailed answers here (the part about auditing requirements above is an assumption on my part, I admit -- at some point you can't muster the energy to study all of it and must apply heuristics.)

https://www.spelinspektionen.se/en/

Edit: Most efficient is probably to read the Gambling Act itself, inofficial translation here (PDF):
https://www.spelinspektionen.se/glo...-spellagen/english-spellagen-sfs-201_1138.pdf
 
There has to be some system in place that one can not get that 100% TT or above return or have 100% losses, that would be gambling.

I did some testings during 1.0 on this one.
EP I + Simple I conductors/Roadie BLP amp.
I did about 220-280 clicks of EP I and if i didn't get a multi during those clicks, then i did switch to the higher craft. Took me between 1-100 clicks to get the multi on the bigger craft.
Resulting in >100% TT-return.
However, after 8-9 multis there were suddenly no more multis for 1000+ clicks, turning the >100% TT-return into 90-95% TT-return...
did that several times.

So yeah, i'm pretty sure there's something in place that keeps TT-returns in check.
 
Gambling as such is not forbidden, but of course rules and restrictions apply. Detailed answers here (the part about auditing requirements above is an assumption on my part, I admit -- at some point you can't muster the energy to study all of it and must apply heuristics.)

https://www.spelinspektionen.se/en/

But isn't it illegal to offer gambling without a proper licence ?
And isn't MA audited because they do not have that licence and must prove, that the game is fair and they simply keep a share ?
 
But isn't it illegal to offer gambling without a proper licence ?
And isn't MA audited because they do not have that licence and must prove, that the game is fair and they simply keep a share ?

Fact the game hasnt been banned from sweden but strongboxs has points to it isnt.
 
But isn't it illegal to offer gambling without a proper licence ?
And isn't MA audited because they do not have that licence and must prove, that the game is fair and they simply keep a share ?

If Mindark would be considered gambling, then US citizens would not be allowed to play.
 
But isn't it illegal to offer gambling without a proper licence ?
And isn't MA audited because they do not have that licence and must prove, that the game is fair and they simply keep a share ?

It is illegal to offer gambling without license, but question is if it is gambling?

Most important part when judging if it is gambling is the impression of randomness.
They are allowed to have some part of randomness, but that comes after another important
part in order, the competition part. Without the competition part, no approval. :silly2:

Some might only see randomness and therefor see it as gambling, but that doesn't mean
this is the case. A faulty theory doesn't change how the system in the game really works.
 
It is illegal to offer gambling without license, but question is if it is gambling?

Most important part when judging if it is gambling is the impression of randomness.
They are allowed to have some part of randomness, but that comes after another important
part in order, the competition part. Without the competition part, no approval. :silly2:

Some might only see randomness and therefor see it as gambling, but that doesn't mean
this is the case. A faulty theory doesn't change how the system in the game really works.

To the competition part, the same thing can be found in some casinos. It is called parimutuel betting. We have one just north of me in Kentucky. I believe Entropia works the same way in a modified form.
 
If Mindark would be considered gambling, then US citizens would not be allowed to play.

Right. I'll have to rethink that. But if it's not, what is it then. Even a simulation of nature based on the randomness in quantum mechanics (which I think was at least in the origins of "Entropia") would be considered gambling if the distributable is money. This US law even considers games of skill -- Poker -- as gambling (I was there the day our American friends were shut out). Have you guys just been flying under the radar all this time? Then any publicity is potentially fatal.
 
If Mindark would be considered gambling, then US citizens would not be allowed to play.

That is by far the strongest argument one should use against half brained cimps that might think EU is a casino.
 
Right. I'll have to rethink that. But if it's not, what is it then. Even a simulation of nature based on the randomness in quantum mechanics (which I think was at least in the origins of "Entropia") would be considered gambling if the distributable is money. This US law even considers games of skill -- Poker -- as gambling (I was there the day our American friends were shut out). Have you guys just been flying under the radar all this time? Then any publicity is potentially fatal.

Check my answer some posts up. A hint why I wrote as I did: I live 38km from Spelinspektionens office. ;)
 
There is Loot 2.0 that gives little kick backs here and there, but is never meant to give you back 100% tt in the long term. You can recover a very minimal amount of the losses in MU.
If you cycle 1 million ped,(which is not hard) with average of 95% tt return, that is still a guaranteed loss of 50k peds.

But, there is also the Bonus Loot pool, which is mentioned in 2.0 dev notes, that gives back from this pool to all participants through various activities and can reward a very small number of lucky players, yes even newbs, with a nice substantial multiplier. You can see this bonus loot when you get 2 stacks of shrapnel in a loot for example.

A multiplier is not ‘wasted’ if you global on a puny mob.
What, when and where you decide to hunt does matter.
 
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There is Loot 2.0 that gives little kick backs here and there, but is never meant to give you back 100% tt in the long term. You can recover a very minimal amount of the losses in MU.
If you cycle 1 million ped,(which is not hard) with average of 95% tt return, that is still a guaranteed loss of 50k peds.

But, there is also the Bonus Loot pool, which is mentioned in 2.0 dev notes, that gives back from this pool to all participants through various activities and can reward a very small number of lucky players, yes even newbs, with a nice substantial multiplier. You can see this bonus loot when you get 2 stacks of shrapnel in a loot for example.

A multiplier is not ‘wasted’ if you global on a puny mob.
What you decide to hunt and when does matter.

Want to point out that, for the moment, this bonus pool is only available to hunters. I do believe this next VU will change that as they add shrapnel to crafting and may very well do the same for mining.
 
That is by far the strongest argument one should use against half brained cimps that might think EU is a casino.

It doesn't make a higher-order chimp if all it does is occupy the other half instead. It is the reason why I keep mentioning quantum mechanics. Small sample size = increased randomness, big sample size = increasingly deterministic. Your sample size is epic. Haven't we had this point hundreds of times.

How competitiveness plays out in the smaller scale, that is for the majority of us peasants and casual players, is the interesting part i.m.o. I must have read the VU notes and dev notes since Loot 2.0 dozens of times but in my own playing could never confirm a notable advantage between using higher-efficiency tools vs. lower ones. Hence my sample size must be within the margins of (seeming) randomness. What the legal prescriptions are regarding the line in between, I evidently have not yet sufficiently studied. But this is really tedious and non-funny.
 
Want to point out that, for the moment, this bonus pool is only available to hunters. I do believe this next VU will change that as they add shrapnel to crafting and may very well do the same for mining.

I got the impression booster prints have access to this pool or another pool to. At first I thought it was to boost back up to tt but i am kinda thinking different with these.
 
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At first I thought it was to boost back up to tt but i am kinda thinking different with these.

I was selling all my boosted BPs for good MU and still got 95% TT-return, so i'd say they aren't needed for good long term return.
 
I was selling all my boosted BPs for good MU and still got 95% TT-return, so i'd say they aren't needed for good long term return.

We talking about loot 1.0 or 2.0 here because i really dont want to derail this thread but you say you got like 95% returns yet other threads you go on about rubbish tt returns on crafting. Maybe they are a booster to 95% whatever but i got a strong hint otherwise their is or % is from another pool.

Im not talking about a few k either in prints i have had either i am talking about like 15k in terms mu in last few months.
 
I think people confuse personal loot cycle with personal loot pool.

A cycle is something which happens regularly. It's a constant.
And I definately do not see any patterns, cycles, constants or whatsoever.
And since MA states that there is no personal loot pool, there ist certainly no definition of it :D
 
Just tell me the answer already!!!!
 
I agree that it does not matter.
I do not agree that it is compensation for loss.
You kill something for 10 ped and most loots are 5 ped.
There's odds, and MA will never disclose them.
If the Odds are 20 percent against you those will be the odds till the end of time.
Sometimes in short term runs you can be ahead but eventually will always be 20 percent down.

Crafting is skill based and you will lose if you try to craft above your skills.
Completely different animal.

I also don't believe when I.m hunting that I am collecting someones Ped that they are dropping in the area.
It's my bankroll and any losses or gains are coming regardless of anyone else.
The house pays the wins.
Everyone has the same odds.
 
i believe large inputs are usually capped on multiplier, or multipliers are less frequent, due to lack of available ped in the global pool.

otherwise it doesn't seem to matter...

in my case i've hit 3-4x 5-7k towers instead of one 30k tower solely due to resource caps and pool availability
 
They can change the Algorithms anytime they want.
I don't think they are changing Algorithms based on any current real time Ped avalability.
They will not be changing the behaviour of the RNG while you lose more Ped.
The win loss will always attempt to come back to the determined odds the longer you play.

They are the house and they will always be taking in more than they put out.
I am not saying they cannot or never will step in to reward you somehow to compensate a player.
 
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