Info: Efficiency vs. Damage Per Pec

aVaLON_52

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Avalon Butterfly Erupter
Wanted to begin a study/discussion on this topic. If this looks incomplete it's because it is. I'm still updating and adding info (to be edited). This is just a basis, I know this topic will generate varying opinions - and please do share your opinion, it will help with hammering out some of the details. I know there's a lot of information out there. However, there is also a lot of ambiguity and outdated information. As you all know this game isn't clear cut and to the point about how to play. We're left to scrounge around and generate our own data to find the most effective/efficient way to gamble.. I mean play.

Firstly some clearer definitions - note, take all this data with a grain of salt.. may be many inaccuracies with my definition etc.

DPP - Damage Per Pec. Unlike efficiency, this affects the quality of the loot, in other words, your ability to loot nicer things as opposed to just shrapnel. For example, if farming for hides, a weapon with higher DPP would reveal more hides in the loot as opposed to shrapnel.

Efficiency : Refers to the amount of ped or TT value in that you receive back from killing a mob. This sense of eco accounts for 0-7% of your loot returns.


The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

The efficiency does not have to be proportional to the DPP of the item but currently they usually are. There are however a couple of exceptions to this such as scopes which have a DPP of 0 (as they do no damage) but still have a fairly high efficiency stat.

There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before. However, with the new loot system it is now possible to make a new team loot rule that splits loot based on everyone's costs instead of their damage, creating a much more fair loot setting for teams.

No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

Although it seems that efficiency and DPP are the same things, this quote helps clarify that:

The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

The efficiency does not have to be proportional to the DPP of the item but currently they usually are. There are however a couple of exceptions to this such as scopes which have a DPP of 0 (as they do no damage) but still have a fairly high efficiency stat.

There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.

In regards to Team loot and Shared loot distribution it hasn't really changed and works the same way as before. However, with the new loot system it is now possible to make a new team loot rule that splits loot based on everyone's costs instead of their damage, creating a much more fair loot setting for teams.

Here's how to calculate total efficiency:

(efficiency of weapon x cost per shot + efficiency of amp x cost per shot) / (cost per shot of weapon and amp)

Example:

Efficiency 60, cost to shoot weapon (decay+ammo) = 20 pec.
Efficiency 76 amp, cost to shoot 5 pec

Total efficiency: (60x20 + 76x5)/(20+5) = 63.2



Weapon Economy Rating
Good information over all in this thread!

I've seen a lot of information in the past not sure if the posts were removed... i.e. official statments from Mindark etc. Can't seem to find them at the moment but will update this as more data comes in. Also if you guys have any references to posts, please share.
 
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God forbid I should type something out of order. People will show their true colors with the quickness.
 
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eff dpp confusion strikes again after loot 2.0 introduction 28 years ago.
Someone should ban me now.I want to die in this second.
 
this is completely fucking backwards....


quote the dev notes not PCF champions...


effiency provides 0-7% more loot and affects the TT returns


DDP affects loot quality (i.e. you get more tier comp/oil drops relative to shrapnel because you're spending less to kill the mob


assuming looter levels are equal every 10% of effiency = 0.7% more TT return.

i.e. filthy casuals won't notice any difference at 65% eff and 80% eff.

also this is why you can take a big bad amp like evil or something and put it on a smaller gun and the efficiency is not affected by the now grossly decreased dpp of the weapon. This is how most player-run HSL events are won now... you can effectively attach an armatrix 55L amp onto an opalo and spend 20 ped killing a 300hp mob. - - - this trick can also be used for farming high TT oils like spleen ;)
 
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this is completely fucking backwards....


quote the dev notes not PCF champions...


effiency provides 0-7% more loot and affects the TT returns


DDP affects loot quality (i.e. you get more tier comp/oil drops relative to shrapnel because you're spending less to kill the mob


assuming looter levels are equal every 10% of effiency = 0.7% more TT return.

Thanks for the candid response. The community here is so friendly, I love it!
 
Thanks for the candid response. The community here is so friendly, I love it!

i've been banned enough times for unreasonable posts that i don't really care anymore. .
 
i've been banned enough times for unreasonable posts that i don't really care anymore. .


It's all good. Rather get candid response with useful info than no info.
 
eff dpp confusion strikes again after loot 2.0 introduction 28 years ago.
Someone should ban me now.I want to die in this second.

Easily confused and just as easily corrected, hence the start of this thread to hopefully eliminate some confusion. I'm still learning myself.
 
Which is more relevant of the two?

While we're on this topic.

I'm curious to know which of the two are more relevant or more important.

Do you guys think it's better to have higher efficiency or DPP... or keep them both high?

Why or why not?
 
Easily confused and just as easily corrected, hence the start of this thread to hopefully eliminate some confusion. I'm still learning myself.

Its ok, I've seen this mistake about 500 times since its introduction, and might not have probably bother me if it was from 2 weeks new avatar.The problem with it is that you quote other ppl and newly registered players might quote you thinking you are old avatar and you know what you are talking about.
Having wrong fundamentals guide new players into learning the game in a bad way, leading to mistakes, losses and eventually quitting the game.

Don't trust what anyone tell you.Do you own investigation, always follow fundamentals and trust just Mindark and their official comments.If there is no comment on that matter then its not true simple as that or they don't want to talk how that specific stuff is working.Do solid tests and remove only whats IMPOSSIBLE.If you find a counter argument to your statement means your conclusion can be put at doubt therefore can't be used as solid statement
 
The topic was on my mind, and it's not like I can just discuss it in rookie chat, that place is just for people who want to let the world know that they are lighting up their bong every morning.

No one talks in Calypso chat.

The only way I could possibly spark a discussion on the matter was to bring it here to the forums, yes knowing that this is a very touchy topic, and I was ok with making mistakes along the way.
 
also this is why you can take a big bad amp like evil or something and put it on a smaller gun and the efficiency is not affected by the now grossly decreased dpp of the weapon. This is how most player-run HSL events are won now... you can effectively attach an armatrix 55L amp onto an opalo and spend 20 ped killing a 300hp mob. - - - this trick can also be used for farming high TT oils like spleen ;)

Given the fact checkers are keen to jump in quickly, is the above (last part) wrong, or have I "missed a trick" there? I would expect only crapnel if spending more than about 3 peds on a 300hp mob due to that kill cost going outside the mob's cost boundary for loot quality.
Better chances of HSL (highest single loot) yes, but only crapnel, not spleen - in my expectation at least...:confused:
 
Given the fact checkers are keen to jump in quickly, is the above (last part) wrong, or have I "missed a trick" there? I would expect only crapnel if spending more than about 3 peds on a 300hp mob due to that kill cost going outside the mob's cost boundary for loot quality.
Better chances of HSL (highest single loot) yes, but only crapnel, not spleen - in my expectation at least...:confused:

Yeah that is correct, you would get nothing but shrapnel if you did that. But your Codex will go up fast since the progress is based on amount of PED spent.

So anyway Avalon, you asked what is better, DPP or Efficiency, and why, here's my point of vue on this:

If a player has a strong purpose to dedicate themselves to the hunting profession, Efficiency will be the more important parameter. Efficiency is directly tied to the TT RETURNS the hunter will get. Hunting with a weapon that has an 80% Efficiency rating as opposed to one that has 58% means 1.54% more returns in the long-term.

1.54% might not seem like much, but if you cycle 80k PED with that 80% weapon, you will get 1232 PED TT more then you would with the 58% Efficiency weapon. If you cycle 300k over the course of a few years, then it's 4,620 TT more you would get in TT returns.

--
If you have a high DPP weapon with a low efficiency rating (which is kind of exceptional at this time, not too many of those in game), you might get a better ratio of actual loot vs shrap, but most of that is crap anyway like animal hide and cheap oils... I think for a hunter below level 45, this won't make any appreciable difference to his bottom line and he/she would be better off with the higher efficiency weapon rather than the high dpp one.

I don't have any numbers on hand to back this up but in my observations so far, there are just so many other random factors involved with killing mobs that a weapon with a better DPP essentially has no real appreciable impact on loot quality, actually. For example, 1 miss or Evade by the mob just totally negates the 'quality' benefit you might have had with your higher dpp weapon, another example, if the mob crits you, your 'cost-to-kill' has now suddenly jumped to the point that your higher dpp is now no longer relevant.

Too many random factors with DPP. But Efficiency is a hard coded rating, loot system is 'forced' to recognize it.

--
Just my opinion.
 
Yeah that is correct, you would get nothing but shrapnel if you did that. But your Codex will go up fast since the progress is based on amount of PED spent.

So anyway Avalon, you asked what is better, DPP or Efficiency, and why, here's my point of vue on this:

If a player has a strong purpose to dedicate themselves to the hunting profession, Efficiency will be the more important parameter. Efficiency is directly tied to the TT RETURNS the hunter will get. Hunting with a weapon that has an 80% Efficiency rating as opposed to one that has 58% means 1.54% more returns in the long-term.

1.54% might not seem like much, but if you cycle 80k PED with that 80% weapon, you will get 1232 PED TT more then you would with the 58% Efficiency weapon. If you cycle 300k over the course of a few years, then it's 4,620 TT more you would get in TT returns.

--
If you have a high DPP weapon with a low efficiency rating (which is kind of exceptional at this time, not too many of those in game), you might get a better ratio of actual loot vs shrap, but most of that is crap anyway like animal hide and cheap oils... I think for a hunter below level 45, this won't make any appreciable difference to his bottom line and he/she would be better off with the higher efficiency weapon rather than the high dpp one.

I don't have any numbers on hand to back this up but in my observations so far, there are just so many other random factors involved with killing mobs that a weapon with a better DPP essentially has no real appreciable impact on loot quality, actually. For example, 1 miss or Evade by the mob just totally negates the 'quality' benefit you might have had with your higher dpp weapon, another example, if the mob crits you, your 'cost-to-kill' has now suddenly jumped to the point that your higher dpp is now no longer relevant.

Too many random factors with DPP. But Efficiency is a hard coded rating, loot system is 'forced' to recognize it.

--
Just my opinion.

Interresting, thank you for sharing.

I know we've brought up the idea of better quality loots being things along the lines of hides, oils, and other non-shrapnel items..

but what about things like UL Armor parts, E.S.I.s and shopkeeper pads.. to me those are also better loot "quality" and if DPP affects this, then looting those items would surely affect returns as well.
 
Interresting, thank you for sharing.

I know we've brought up the idea of better quality loots being things along the lines of hides, oils, and other non-shrapnel items..

but what about things like UL Armor parts, E.S.I.s and shopkeeper pads.. to me those are also better loot "quality" and if DPP affects this, then looting those items would surely affect returns as well.

It's no affecting those. Better loot composition is a concept. BEtter DPP will allow you to farm in the same amount of PED, more markup. It's a perspective thing... here are a few scenarios:


- 1000 PED with a better DPP will get you more spleen in comparison with a lower DPP setup (but will also get you more mobs);
- over 1000 mobs you will get the same amount of spleen with both a lower DPP and a higher DPP, you will just spend less with the higher DPP to kill the 1k mobs;
- equal efficiency but different DPP, over 1000 mobs, will get you, for example 150 ped spleen, but with low DPP you will get also 850 shrapnel while with high DPP you will get only 600 ped shrapnel, but, % return will be the same.


Given the above, high DPP is still extremly important because it will increase your avg MU. A lot of ppl don't get this and made life steal the new META :laugh:

There's a great thread on the forums that compiled all dev posts about loot 2.0 aspects, you should quote from that in your OP and also add that link in it.
 
yeah, killcost is what matters for loot composition.

4i4mu39x.png


When your loot composition looks roughly like that, then you should be somewhat okay with MU.
Run was done with Armatrix-LR 25, Z12 Barbarella, Redux ZK1, Machete.
 
- over 1000 mobs you will get the same amount of spleen with both a lower DPP and a higher DPP, you will just spend less with the higher DPP to kill the 1k mobs

Thats absolutely not right. I've hunted several thousand PED with unmaxed DMG SIB weapons (dont ask why, not my proudest time) and I can guarantee you that even Animal Eye Oil became rare :cool:
This was with below 2 DPP and an extreme example but I think that even the amount of non-shrap loot per mob killed increases with DPP.
 
Thats absolutely not right. I've hunted several thousand PED with unmaxed DMG SIB weapons (dont ask why, not my proudest time) and I can guarantee you that even Animal Eye Oil became rare :cool:
This was with below 2 DPP and an extreme example but I think that even the amount of non-shrap loot per mob killed increases with DPP.

:laugh::laugh:
Such extreme scenarios are an exception :))
I tested some hundreds of thousands of peds with various weapons one one mob and the amount of oil was about the same, but then again, I never tried below 2 DPP now have I tested exact oil loot from the DPP viewpoint. I wouldn't want to try either over long periods of time :laugh::laugh: Try to get as much as possible DPP not just efficiency.
 
Do you guys think it's better to have higher efficiency or DPP... or keep them both high?

Why or why not?

If must to choose, eff, dpp can be added with crit's by pills, rings, etc.

But not really have to choose, most of, if not all the new higher eff weapons have high dpp too.
Even a newbie BP-20 fen or BC-30 mod with their 13-16k price match the imk2 in dpp.
 
:laugh::laugh:
Such extreme scenarios are an exception :))
I tested some hundreds of thousands of peds with various weapons one one mob and the amount of oil was about the same, but then again, I never tried below 2 DPP now have I tested exact oil loot from the DPP viewpoint. I wouldn't want to try either over long periods of time :laugh::laugh: Try to get as much as possible DPP not just efficiency.

We did a few test run with robot beacons, low dpp with armatrix, without buff, ring, and added 2 hired f2p low skilled shooter to shoot lvl100 weapons to even lower our dpp.

Than runs with bc-30 mod, pills, rings, so higher dpp, without the lvl100 shooters.

Not just the % of mu incrased on shrapnel - mu ratio, but there were clear difference between mu's too.
in low dpp runs, most of the stackable mu was the 101-103% stuff we got.
while the high dpp runs, most of the stackable's we got was the 108-120% mu stuff.

I have the exact number's at home, we noted every run with the % of shrap - mu, high - low mu ratio in runs.
 
yeah, killcost is what matters for loot composition.

Yes, cost per kill is a thing, a very real thing. Does not matter if you got high dpp or high efficiency if the mob you are trying to kill has hp match to your damage that causes massive overkill every kill..

From what I understand Loot 2.0 does 'pay back' something in decay more than Loot 1.0 does, but I'm not so sure overkill is accounted for in that 'pay back.'
 
Your loot return is based on whatever the always watching balancing manager sets it at, after a 30 second adjustment lag. Then you'll either witness an "instant" extreme downward swing or an upward swing depended on that instant adjustment.

If you believe in the under the hood algorithm, you are a fool. Some avatars are set without any limiters, but even those will outlive there usefulness, when a new king or queen is appointed to godly status.

Simple as that. Any loot algorirum news has a value of "one day" before it should be considered as obsolete and adjusted. We're probably on loot 2.458 next week 2.459

Not bitter, just facts.

Rick

Edit. Bear in mind you're giving your total faith that the weapons you're using, not only fit into the algorithm but are coded to accept it fully on a like-for-like basis (based on loot over time). I kind of got the impression that weapons in the 55- 65 eco range were better suited to the loot algorirhum than new more eco kit. Maybe MA have fixed that now, although theres always a lot of new gear trading hands shortly after purchase... mmmm I wonder why.
 
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Your loot return is based on whatever the always watching balancing manager sets it at, after a 30 second adjustment lag. Then you'll either witness an "instant" extreme downward swing or an upward swing depended on that instant adjustment.

Makes sense now, always wondered why Captain Jack is in incognito all day long, guess he is hiding from the balancing manager :laugh:
He always figure out the things before the rest of us.

Next time add some jk or lol or smiley, because if not, peoples will belive you are serious.
 
One thing to remember, when they mention e.g loot will be better due to higher
skills in looter prof stands, it isn't basic loot plus someting, its about reducing
unefficiency in looter prof stands and lower loot.
We don't get anything extra when we skill up, all we do is lose less.

And no, Loot 2.0 is NOT a totaly new system as some seem to think, its just
Loot 1.0 calculation that is "optimized and improved". ;)
 
We did a few test run with robot beacons, low dpp with armatrix, without buff, ring, and added 2 hired f2p low skilled shooter to shoot lvl100 weapons to even lower our dpp.

Than runs with bc-30 mod, pills, rings, so higher dpp, without the lvl100 shooters.

Not just the % of mu incrased on shrapnel - mu ratio, but there were clear difference between mu's too.
in low dpp runs, most of the stackable mu was the 101-103% stuff we got.
while the high dpp runs, most of the stackable's we got was the 108-120% mu stuff.

I have the exact number's at home, we noted every run with the % of shrap - mu, high - low mu ratio in runs.

One thing I learned while tracking over 10 million ped turnover in the last 4 years and a half is that in order to get some data without influence from variation you need very large numbers. With that in mind, I would need solid numbers (or dev statement) to believe that on same kill count you can get more stackables (except shrapnel) with higher DPP (I'd compare old school avg dpp of 3 with new dpp of 4+)

Oh and
Next time add some jk or lol or smiley, because if not, peoples will belive you are serious.
He is serious :smiles:
 
Yes, cost per kill is a thing, a very real thing. Does not matter if you got high dpp or high efficiency if the mob you are trying to kill has hp match to your damage that causes massive overkill every kill..

exactly. Also high DPP and high efficiency don't matter if your DPS is way too low for the mob. Too low DPS allows the mob to regenerate a lot of HP, which increases the cost per kill a lot.

So with mobs you can't take out in about 9-10 shots or which have high regen it's just better to invite friends for a team hunt to get much better loot composition, than killing it solo with too low DPS and getting bad loot composition.
 
Next time add some jk or lol or smiley, because if not, peoples will belive you are serious.

I was serious haha. Although I've come to the conclusion, that you can out skill the system. So unless you're allowed to run on constant profit they have to keep adjusting a player with those skills.

For example having the "best" in game whip skill, taming skills and a top end pet with 500k xp that gives 20% skill gain, gives MA a problem. Not to mention 300k+ other skills as well. How do they balance your returns with others on the same play ground under their condition?

Can only be, manual adjustment.

Not allowed to win after all. HAHA.

RICK.

Edit: add to that next to zero overkill. Because with taming you attempt tame 99% of the time under the HP of the mob before looting. With enough skill it should be possible to beat the loot algorithm (with enough mobs looted).

Hence why i smile back at MA with their adjustments. They know dam well I can make 50% profit a run, if they allow it.
 
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So with mobs you can't take out in about 9-10 shots or which have high regen it's just better to invite friends for a team hunt to get much better loot composition, than killing it solo with too low DPS and getting bad loot composition.

Unless you are talking about killing Levi Alpha with opalos, it's BS. You can get pretty good loot composition on big maturity levis with avg dps for a medium hunter (say around 70-80 level) which means killing it with much more than 9-10 shots. This leads me to believe, as I said above, the DPP influences the amount of shrapnel you get on top of the same stackable you'd get anyway, regardless of DPP (ofc, in the range of 3 to 4.5).
I'm killing a mob with 185 shots and I get awesome loot composition. (The Eviscerator). Number of hots means nothing.
 
One thing to remember, when they mention e.g loot will be better due to higher
skills in looter prof stands, it isn't basic loot plus someting, its about reducing
unefficiency in looter prof stands and lower loot.
We don't get anything extra when we skill up, all we do is lose less.

And no, Loot 2.0 is NOT a totaly new system as some seem to think, its just
Loot 1.0 calculation that is "optimized and improved". ;)

I'm sure looter skill though came after the loot 2 implementation.

Looter skills was effectively old school non-SIB weapons stats, moved from the weapon too the loot return instead.

It allowed MA to say your weapon might be 10/10 but with the illusion of making it SIB. But now the need to skill 3 types of looter skills instead. Unless you specialise to one mob.

MA is like Mexican food, changes all amount to the same thing, it's just wrapped differently. Haha

RICK
 
MA is like Mexican food, changes all amount to the same thing, it's just wrapped differently. Haha

yeah literally it's the same formula

1) eco/efficiency matters (don't be a moron)
2) skills matter (keep skilling)
3) volume matters (keep shooting)
 
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